Had my bandmill since April. .. have made very little $ at it so far and have put lots of hard work in. Am sawing for 1/2 the lumber right now and know it'll take time to see a return on it. I need $ soon or won't be able to operate let alone eat.... any suggestions on how to operate on limited funds?
Hi rconkie,
Thats a tough question to answer without more information.
What mill do you have? What other support equipent do you have? Where are you located?
I did well sawing log cabin kits, but only because I was in an area without building codes and there was a market for them at the time.
What you can make money sawing greatly depends on your equipment and local marketplace.
This is the place to ask. But like the man sez, fill us in a little more. Where you at? Whatcha got?
Quote from: rconkie on July 17, 2015, 02:19:20 PM
.... any suggestions on how to operate on limited funds?
Pretty much how I've done it all along. Even then, I don't know what to tell you. I have an ex-wife and an ex-business partner. They both seemed to want way more money than I felt I needed. But I was happy to live in a homemade cabin built from torn down buildings. Somehow I was able to keep my nine lumpy acres of alder.
When my mom died at 95 four years ago, some money fell out of the sky and landed on me. I always knew if I could ever afford another Wood-Mizer, that would be one of the first things I'd get. Maybe it's coming at it backwards for most folks, but choosing a minimalist lifestyle has worked out for me. I have worked for others for no pay and lived on a small pension (that was taken away when I inherited). I still buy at thrift stores and live as I always did. Some folks will take what you give and return nothing, and others will reward you well.
To me, at this turn, life is all a blessing. There are all kinds of stories in the world, but I am not any of those. Some really famous guy is credited with saying something like this:
"Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."
Whatever happens, things will work out. We just never get to know ahead of time exactly how.
Am located outside fort Smith Arkansas and am as new to the area as i am sawing, so do not have many local contacts.
I went with a Timberking 2000 with full hydraulic handling and an advanced computer setworks. As far as support equipment a tractor for moving logs. Also have a woodmaster 4 in1 molder planner however haven't even equipment ok that out of the box yet because have to build a shop to set it up in. so at this point the tractor is my suppot equipment
Newcomer is an issue you can't do anything about. Stress part is up to you. If you walk out of there in a barrel, you're still walking. I think it was Pogo who said, "We is surrounded by insurmountable opportunities."
Get out and do some custom jobs that pay right away rather than half and half that might take a while to sell.. Advertise. If you go on custom jobs don't piddle around spending 5 minutes deciding where to make the opening cut as that doesn't impress anyone, keep the saw head moving back and forth and you'll be busy. Steve
Also get that molder up and running, tongue and groove sells good but rather cheap some times. If you have white oak or other outside wood trailer decking sells real good. Steve
Steve's advice is spot on. I'd probably go for the custom sawing jobs first, but definitely get that woodmaster going too.
If you're lucky, you can find some on-site custom jobs where the customer lives alongside a road that sees some traffic. That's a good way to get free advertisement.
I don't know how the lumber market is where your at but trying to saw lumber and sell it around here is a one way ticket to the poor house. Try to get the planner going to increase the value of your lumber I know it's hard when your trying to do everything else to keep your head above water.
If it wasn't for ties and pallet cants and bridge timbers I couldn't afford the gas to run my mill
From reading the forum, most guys don't saw on halves if they are trying to make a living. You run up a lot of expenses that way and can't eat lumber. I'm just a hobby guy so I spend part of my paycheck to have fun with the mill.
I wish you the best. There are some very succussful sawyers on here who are also really great guys. Keep reading and you will find ways to make some money on everything that comes off that mill, because nothing that comes off it is free.
I feel your pain, rconkie... This is a tough, but rewarding industry, just not always financially... You have the opportunity to make people happy, do great things, and do what you love...but being new means you are at the bottom of the ladder, and the rungs are spaced REALLY far apart in this industry... But not unreachable... Do your best to network and advertise, as these will be among the most important things for you now...wish I had a planer, I know it would help me, so like the other fellas said, get it going!!! And keep your chin up!!! Best of luck. Brian
Just a thought, but can you build portable buildings or something else that sells well in your area, instead of stocking and trying to sell lumber?
I have some logs that I am going to saw on the halves, from 2 different friends, not something I had planned on doing, and I don't plan to sell the lumber either.
But then I didn't buy my mill to mill with plans of milling for others. In the short time I have had it, I have had lots of inquiries though, so I probably could at least make a little money sawing for others with it if I wanted too and had the time.
I don't know what sells in your area, but storage buildings, dog houses, wishing wells, etc. There has to be something that would work for, just a pain finding your niche.
I made very little money in the first 6 months I owned my mill. I planned to do mobile sawing, but most people wanted wood - mantels, timbers, posts, etc. I didn't have a source for logs.
I had to go out and sell myself, and that is something I don't like to do. But it had to be done. It took me a couple of months, but I finally figured out that anytime I met someone I hadn't seen for a while, I'd ask what they were up to. Sooner or later they'd ask me what I was up to and I'd mention the sawmill. Then I'd give them a couple of business cards (always two, unless they asked for more). I got very few direct orders, but word slowly got around.
I also talked to contractors and the local timber framer. No one wanted to get into the business of buying logs and dealing with the byproducts. I didn't just visit them once. I'd go by every 2 or 3 weeks (depending on how receptive they were). Sometimes I take along a box of doughnuts (which gave me an excuse to hang around). That eventually paid off.
I also dropped in at the local coffee shops (when their business was slow) and chatted with the owners. Same thing with the local service station/convenience store. I steered the conversation around to what I was trying to do. Just about all of them invited me to leave some cards on the counter.
One thing I have never done (and never will) is saw on shares. If you're doing mobile work, you have the big advantage of not having to stock inventory (and watching it deteriorate). If you saw on shares you suddenly get stuck with inventory and you have to take time to market your material. And you can be sure you'll never have exactly what the customer wants. Unless your banker (or the tax department) will take lumber for payment, you need to bring in cash to pay your overheads.
It's different if you already have a retail operation and storage facilities.
And about the business card thing. I had a real problem thinking up a name for my business. A lot of people do. Guess what. You don't need a business name to put on business cards. I just printed up my own cards with my name and contact information, plus what I did (portable custom sawing). I used Avery business card stock and printed my own as I needed them. As my business evolved I could change things without having invested in 500 cards.
Never give out just one card (see, I said that twice :D). People will often pass on a card to someone else. Chances are it'll be someone you don't know.
Quote from: Ocklawahaboy on July 17, 2015, 05:41:15 PM
From reading the forum, most guys don't saw on halves if they are trying to make a living.
True with me, I saw for money, not wood.
Sounds like you are new in town, and you don't yet know the grapevine or have the contacts. So here's a trick I used when I first started out....turn off the saw. Then hop in your vehicle and start driving. Stop at every place that looks like it uses wood. Trailer shops, pallet shops, cabinet shops, furniture and consignment stores, the local farmers COOP, every mom and pop home improvement store, every place that sells pole barns and metal roof trusses, etc. Every single place that buys wood wants to get a better deal than what they currently are getting. That's where you have to hustle and make some deals. Then turn the saw back on and make some money. Knocking on doors isn't as much fun as making sawdust, and may be way out of your comfort zone, but it is surprisingly effective. I've spent many a day in my truck driving around when I started, and it really pays off.
Brucer posted the same time I did sounds like we are saying pretty much the same thing. Turn off the saw, get into the truck..
YH
Quote from: YellowHammer on July 18, 2015, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: Ocklawahaboy on July 17, 2015, 05:41:15 PM
From reading the forum, most guys don't saw on halves if they are trying to make a living.
True with me, I saw for money, not wood.
the only thing i saw on the halves is walnut ;D
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, rconkie.
If you had a kiln, sawing on shares might not be as bad because the lumber would be sale-able much faster. In a businesses, cash is king! Find jobs that pay cash!
Geoff
You can do free advertising on craigslist. You can also make a business page on facebook. Every time you go to a counter to pay (gas, deli, parts store, etc) leave three business cards at the counter, out of view of the cashier. When people are waiting for the cashier, they are looking for something to keep them busy. That's why you see all the gum, candy, magazines, and other eye catching things at the counter. Make your business cards one of them.
What did your business plan call for when you set it up?
I think most business are set up expecting not to turn a profit the first several years. I figured I'd do good if I broke even the first year. I had enough cash reserves set up to live off without the income from the mill.
The only wood I sell is some I am trying to thin or salvage (I cut a nice dead cherry yesterday) off my property. I advertise it in local free trading journal then cut on demand so I'm not cutting the wrong size that won't sell. I built a lumber storage shed to hold my side and excess to let it air dry but took months to do so and at little cost.
I set up a web site, got magnetic signs for my truck, plenty of business cards, made flyer on my computer and distributed them to local shops and stores and advertise periodically in our local weekly rag. If I see someone cutting trees or a stack of logs I stop and talk to the people and if nobody is around I put a business card in a ziplock bag and staple it in a prominent location. Work is trickling in but not enough to live off yet. Money I make mostly goes to pay for the equipment I have already bought (I did not go into debt for any just to replace savings I withdrew) or for more support equipment.
I advanced a local primitive furniture builder some wood to get going. If that pans out I will have another market to sell some of my salvage wood. If not I will write it off as a business expense.
As others have suggested I'd recommend cutting for cash vs cutting on shares until you are in better shape financially. Look at other ways to make cash from your tools, time and equipment. If you are cutting on halves I'd be sure to cut for half the logs, not the lumber then you cut them into sizes you can sell or use for your own needs. Look for the niche markets and try to fill them. Provide quality rather than trying to compete on price - somebody can always cut cheaper than you but are they mobile? Can they cut as big/long a board as you? Do they deliver?
The key thing at first is advertising especially by word of mouth. Time should improve if you offer a product or service locally needed but you have to ride it out till then. If you can't do that get out now rather than going deeper in debt.
Everyone has responded with great advice, ideas and encouragement. This forum and the people on it are great. Thanks everyone. I do need this lumber for my own needs and the goal is to keep this saw moving and the molder planner up and running. Lots of determination left in me yet. Just so much to do.
If you can love the doing, the stress part will be taken care of. Enjoy yourself.
I don't know what you are sawing, but if it is suitable for trailer decks, you mught check in with all the trucking and construction companies that use lowboys too. They are always in the market for heavy deck boards for lowboys.
Figure out how to get paid at the end of each day for your sawing. Not a lot more rewarding than going home tired with a paycheck. If your wife supports your endeavor there's no stress.
Once in a while someone asks me if I will take wood in payment. I shouldn't, but I've answered several such questions by asking if they know the story of Jack and the Beanstalk. After a moment of silence then I say well Jack sold his mother's cow for beans and look what happened to him. His mother beat him with a stick and sent him to bed without supper. Well I just looked that up and can't find that she beat him with a stick so I guess I lied. But she should have.
It is not PC anymore to beat with a stick so the fairy tale stories got changed. Just the new world we must live in today.
We have several "one man bands" sawing ties for us. Some we sell logs to and buy back the ties and side lumber. A couple others we provide 11-13" logs and pay them just to square them up. Flooring lumber is cheap and getting hard to move. You won't get rich but it seems to be working out well for both sides. A very good chance you might work a deal with a local commercial mill; especially a mill sawing grade lumber to saw their low grade logs into something saleable(ties).
Lots of good suggestion so far for marketing. Something I've found works for me is to take pictures of milling jobs -- logs on the mill, stacks of boards, pictures of really nice freshly milled boards. Then get them printed, 5-6 pictures in a 8x10 collage print (less than $5 ea at Walgreens). Post these prints at places with public bulletin boards, and thumbtack a stack of 10 business cards to the corner of the print. (Never put up just one business card). The photos draw a lot more attention than just a card.
I've been at this just over three years now, and I'm just reaching the point where it is providing a full time income. Odd jobs and frugal living have made up the difference. I absolutely love milling, and it's finally starting to love me back.
PS If you do mobile work, make up a yard sign with your name and number, that says "Portable Sawmill Service". Post this out by the road when working near the street. A lot of people will slow down, or stop and watch you run the mill, but they won't get out of the car to come ask for a business card while you're working.
Get permission to set up on a busy parking lot bring a BIG tarp for cleanup and some rope to keep people back. Set the mill up and haul some logs to it and start cutting, you might get lots of interest.
Just land a saw-job on a busy road and most times you'll land a couple more jobs.
People can't help but notice!
When you are sawing in a "visible" location sometime folks will stop. Give them a card and welcome them to watch. Months or even years later they may call.
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on July 18, 2015, 06:37:18 PM
Jack sold his mother's cow for beans and look what happened to him. His mother beat him with a stick and sent him to bed without supper. Well I just looked that up and can't find that she beat him with a stick so I guess I lied. But she should have.
You are correct...in the Jacobs version of the story she does beat him. The Lang version, published about the same time (around 1890-1900 I think), is the more prosaic and "fairytale like" version where Jack gets away without a beating. Later revisions of the Jacobs version omitted any mention of a beating as Beenthere mentioned earlier. I have an original copy of Jacobs Fairy Tales somewhere in my stacks of books. I'll have to dig it out one of these days. :P :)
Guess my memory's worth something some of the time! ::)
QuoteGet permission to set up on a busy parking lot bring a BIG tarp for cleanup and some rope to keep people back. Set the mill up and haul some logs to it and start cutting, you might get lots of interest
Having your mill set up at fairs and social gatherings where people are works well for many owners. You will need to have some logs most times you can even sell the lumber at the location. Have your pricing available and some information to hand out. You goal is for people to see you and go to breakfast ( or other) and talk about you to others. It is fair season August, September. You should be able to find some locations close to you.
Hope this helps.
Marty
Good advice, but you'll find a kiln is the missing link. That planer won't do you any good with green or even air dried lumber.
Many people take the leap of faith without a plan B. You must not be to proud to say this is not working as planned, and alter your course. This may include finding other employment while you are building your personal business. If you have a family they and you need to eat, and sawdust doesn't taste very good and offers very little protein. If you and your family really believe in what you are doing then you will be successful. It will take long hours and hard work and sacrifices from everyone in your family. Keep your eyes on the prize!!!!!!!
the ole saying money makes money, could not be more true. It does take some other equipment that speeds up material handling. I have to agree with the others on the custom jobs, be it mobile or there at your place. Buying logs and then selling, or sawing on barter and selling (whenever) can bring you down at times. Finish products, with a market to cover them is the way to go, in the mean while get a handle on local saw jobs and saw for cash. Have plenty of blades and be ready to be flexible. It just takes time, It really is like a roller coaster, and with this heat not many folks want to get on the ride, fall will open up more than likely. Spend less than you make don't hurt much either ;D
I used to make it a habit to go to local sawmill demonstrations and hang around for most of the day. On one occasion I ran into some former neighbours I hadn't seen for years. They'd been looking at a small mill to saw some of the logs on their acreage but decided it was not for them. They asked if I knew anyone with a mill and I smiled and handed them a business card :).
At another demo (back when I was contract sawing for a timber-framer) I told the WM guys my customer was looking for a source of good sawlogs. They told me to hang around, and sure enough, a woodlot owner showed up (he was the one who supplied the logs for the demo). I got his contact info and my customer ended up buying 10 loads of logs (which I got to saw :)).
Even if you aren't there to demo your mill, fairs, agri-shows, home shows, all these are good places to make new contacts.