In the past month, I have spun a rod bearing in my truck and busted a timing belt in my honda civic. Well, I sez to myself, at least the sawmill still runs ok.
Why do I say things like that?
This morning, the 24hp Onan on my woodmizer bogged down and blew blue smoke.
I shut it down, waited a bit, and started it up again.
Ran fine, no more blue smoke, but when I got home, I did a compression test.
90psi in one cylinder, 45 in the other >:(
I always had a feeling this engine was a bit weak, I guess this confirms it.
I know this engine is rebuildable, but Onan parts are just getting scarcer and pricier, so I'm really not interested in fixing it with such dwindling support.
So I guess it's time to bite the bullet and spring for a new engine.
WM offers a 25hp kohler package for about 2 grand, which would be the simplest option, but they say a week to 10 days, and I'd really like to keep going on the jobs I finally have lined up after months of nothing.
If it dosen't get radically worse, I can get thru the week with it. It really isn't any worse than last week.
It would be nice to change it out this weekend, but that may not be too realistic, especially if I have to custom fit something.
Oh well, at least I still have my health...
(sound of knuckles rapping on sawdust filled skull)
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Might just have a chunk of crap under a valve ???
Been there, done that. My onan started smoking and knocking, 1/2 gallon of oil a day. Checked with all the engine warehouses, could have saved some money, finally went with WM for a direct replacement, only thing that would not work was had to put an extra 1" spacer under the engine, what were included wasn't enough.
Mine went down in a busy time to, $800.00 and three weeks to rebuild :o. Almost half the replacement without the warranty.
I felt mine was weak too, the Kohler proved it, more power, little more than 1/2 the fuel, only thing I can think of is the old engine was weak and spending more time in the cut.
Might want to check on fuel injected to, if my info is right you get 3 or 4 more hp for the same engine weight. I beleive that on these mills you can feel every horse.
They told me the same thing on lead time, I think they are just trying to cover their butt because they have no control over the freight carrier, mine was cossiderablly less.
Ya could just jump on I65 and head north, get the Honda running you could probably save gas money on the freight. Get to check out the plant while you are at it too.
QuoteMight just have a chunk of scrappola under a valve
I thunk about that.
The plug in the weak cylinder was pretty crusty.
Don't wanna open anything up since I don't know where to find gaskets, and I need to keep sawing this week.
Maybe I'll try misting some water in a spray bottle over the carb?
I think I remember reading about that somewhere for carbon buildup? ???
WB, have you tried Cummins/Onan on Spence Lane in Nashville? Just past Briley Pkwy. on I-40, Exit onto Spence Lane, left at top of ramp, top of the hill on the right. Bet they can at least get ya some gaskets.
BTW, isn't that you pickin' in the picture on LuLu's menu? Not a clear pic, but I thought it favored you.
Hi, Greg. Yep, that's me. Not sure why anyone would put a photo of me on the menu- ain't much meat on my bones. Maybe they're trying to scare off customers. :D
Thanks for the tip on Cummins. I saw a van of theirs the other day, passing me on hwy70 with the mill, actually. So I figured they must have a location somewhere in the area.
WH- when I talked to WM, I got the impression they didn't have one on hand- I remember the phrase "to get one in" in the discussion of the time frame. ???
Maybe I'll call back and clear that up.
At this point, I'm just gonna run it 'til it quits, or until I finish these sawing jobs, then decide what to to. For all I know, it could just keep going the rest of the summer. Like I said, it is not cutting dramatically slower than it has in the past. Not having run another similar mill, I never had a comparison, but I always felt like it should have had more power.
I ran mine for a long time, didn't realize how slow it was.
Here is a thread on the engine replacement we did on the 97 woodmizer.
Engine replacement thread (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=12861.20)
It was really easy, all things considered...I think the 28hp FI is well worth the money if you can get one form WM.
here's a couple of threads on using a liquid cooled kawasaki
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=22175.0
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=17276.msg297962#msg297962
I love mine and it was almost a bolt-on swap. google tulsa engine warehouse.
QuoteAt this point, I'm just gonna run it 'til it quits, or until I finish these sawing jobs, then decide what to to.
Hold on there George! Onans are notorious for loose valve seats. When my 24 Onan lost power it was because it had a cracked head and needed a few valve seats. Any shop that rebuilds heads can get your compression back up if that's all it is.
They were able to "ping" the cracked head back together. The next year the other side went out and they reworked it too. They had me up and running the next day and the cost was minor. This head work extended the engine life untill the motor wore out evenly, then I got another motor. I'm on my fourth motor now and I decided I would try a 25 Kohler this time. It runs like a scalded dog, I wish I had gotten a Kohler sooner.
If you are going to go with a new Kohler, Cook's saw has the 25 hp for 1497.79
Cookssaw.com Says they have the heavy duty air cleaner, and aluma coated muffler.
QuoteThey were able to "ping" the cracked head back together. The next year the other side went out and they reworked it too. They had me up and running the next day and the cost was minor. This head work extended the engine life untill the motor wore out evenly, then I got another motor. I'm on my fourth motor now and I decided I would try a 25 Kohler this time. It runs like a scalded dog, I wish I had gotten a Kohler sooner.
Thanks, I think I will skip over the middle parts there, and go right to the scalded dog bit. ;D
Where I have been sawing, there is also a Timber King mill with a 30hp Kohler that looks like it would work real well, I have been studying it quite a bit.
Got thru yesterday ok, but it is really going slow. Part of that is the logs I am sawing- all walnut, 8 and 10 foot, mostly crooked and smallish. But after 5 1/2 days, I have only racked up 4000bf. :( My only consolation is that the 2 guys with the TK are not putting out much more. They are wearing out their lawn chairs, though. :D
Today I will be cutting 14' oak 2x6, we will see how that goes.
I found a place in Nashville that seems to carry Kawasaki and Kohler engines. I think I will come home for lunch and give them a call.
WB, I'd like to see that bigger TK in action. Kinda wore out cranking on this one, and would enjoy seeing one that would take better care of ME! I know, if I hadn't been so cheap!....
Y'all sawin' close to home? How much longer you gonna be there?
Greg
Greg, they are up at the log yard on hwy 70 on the left going up snows hill toward Smithville. They will be there today sawing, out toward the back of the yard.
The guys that run the yard are taking a couple weeks off after this week. They have been having me and the other guys saw up all their walnut so it doesn't sit out in the sun and crack all to pieces. We're getting down to the real scraggly little sticks, so I am taking the day off to tend to the mill, and a bunch of other stuff I need to do.
I think it is a 1600 they have, but with all the hydraulic options, and the bigger motor. Also has a separate motor for the hyd pump. Go and have a look if you get a chance, they get there around 6am and knock off around 3pm or so.
Got ahold of the cummins/onan place, and they at least has head gaskets in stock, so I went ahead and pulled the heads. Both exhaust valves are burnt, one real bad, 3 cracks all the way to the stem. That certainly explains the low compression.
Took me all morning to find a place that had the valves in stock, but they can't get them to me till wednesday. I think I'll still get them and put it all back together, since that seems to be the main problem, but I also managed to find a 24hp Honda locally. It was the only thing anyone had in stock anywhere nearby that I could find. They had the 25hp Kohler, too, but for 500 bucks more. I liked the 20 horse Honda I had on the Peterson well enough, so I went and got the 24 this afternoon. It was on sale too. :) Only problem is they did not have the muffler in stock. >:( So, if I can't scare one up in the morning, I'll see if I can get something fabbed up at a muffler shop. Probably be cheaper that way, Honda wants $125 for theirs.
Overall, it looks like a pretty good replacement. I will have to block it up 3 3/8" to keep the pulley in the same location, but thats better than having to lower it, right? :D
woodbeard, how much is that 24 Honda? Is it new or used?
I forgot to tell you the other day that I've got a few new Onan valves, don't recall whether they are intake, exhause or both.
Just thought Id throw a vote for the Kohler if you decide on a new motor. Ive had a 25 HP kohler on my edger that I bought new in 2001. The thing has about 4000 plus hours on it,Ive modded the edger to take 3 inch cants, the governor stuck once and the thing was turnin major high rpm, didnt whine at all. It likes to ice up the carb when the dew point and temperature are close to eachother but if there is one piece of equipment that I havent looked after as well as I should, its that motor. Amazing piece IMHO......
I have no doubts about the Kohler 25, but the Honda 24 was $500 less. For that money, I could almost get a real horse. :D Including Tennessee's outrageous sales tax, I paid a tad over 1300 for the honda. (new) I coulda got the Kohler for a good price too, but not yesterday.
I lucked out, and found a slightly used muffler for $40 at a rental yard. They had taken it off a straw blower for some reason or another, and it is a perfect fit. 8)
Got almost all the mechanical stuff figured out, and now off to town to get nuts and bolts, etc.
Woodbeard see if you can get a tax refund on the engine. Most times items used in manufacturing are exempt. If in doubt call your state department of revenue, worst they can say is no. Even if you've already paid it you should be able to get a refund from your state.
Norm's right; agriculture and industrial equipment (dudden't this qualify?) is sales tax free in TN; have to furnish a statement of usage to seller. Don't know how to go about requesting a refund, but I'm sure it can be done.
Cool, I will look into that, thanks. :)
Got the Honda positioned and bolted in place, with a 3 3/8"x 8" x 10" block of osage orange under it. Probably added another 8 pounds to the engine platform, but it oughta hold up pretty well. Besides... It's ORANGE :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10352/engine3.jpg)
I was able to use the Woodmizer throttle cable, bend the bracket a bit and bolt it in a conveniently located hole. It wasn't long enough to attach to the frame, so I took a small turnbuckle, substituted a regular bolt for one of the eyebolts, fastened that end into the frame with a locknut, and attached the spring end of the cable to the remaining eyebolt.
Made a couple small slits in the frame where the bolt goes thru, and bent it downward, to put the turnbuckle in line with the cable.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10352/engine.jpg)
And here is a pic with the muffler on, and the little bar thingy under the pulley that keeps the belt from flapping around. There just happened to be a threaded hole to bolt it to so that it sits right where it did before.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10352/engine2.jpg)
Well, so far, so good...
;D
Looks great woodbeard. I've had good luck with the honda engines though they can be persnickety in cold damp weather.
When I bought my excavator the sales company said no way I was tax free. I called the state dept of revenue and a very nice young lady asked me how I was using it. I told her it was part of my sawmill equipment use to make logs into boards for sale. She said that's part of a manufacturing system and is tax free! I love not paying taxes. ;D
Hi Woodbeard,
I don't know if this is still a problem with 24hp Honda's or not, but when they first came out,
if you fill them with the recommended amount of oil, the vacuum driven fuel pump didn't get
enough vacuum to work well. They told me to keep the oil level about 1/8th of an inch above
the "add" level. Just something to keep in mind if you start having problems at full throttle.
Good luck!
The charging system is waay inadequate on our Honda 24. We added a 100A Delco 1 wire alt and drive it from a seperate pulley on the crank.
QuoteThe charging system is waay inadequate on our Honda 24. We added a 100A Delco 1 wire alt and drive it from a seperate pulley on the crank.
I'm still using the same pulleys, belts, and alternator I had before.
The Honda wiring did throw me for a loop at first. Had the lead to the ignitor/coil hooked up to the wire that used to go to the onan coil. Wrong!! The Honda powers its own ignition system, and that lead goes to a kill switch to shut it off by grounding it. Had to go get a whole new ignition switch, as the Woodmizer one doesn't work that way.
Anyhoo.. I got all the wiring sorted out, and fired it up. Runs great, except it tends to surge up and down at idle, especially when I run the hydraulics or up/down/feed motors. There's another thread going on about Honda 24's surging, so I'm gonna check that out.
Other than the surging, it is going great! Plenty of power in the cut, no bogging down.
Sliced up a 16" cedar, and it just cruised right through, where it would have previously slowed to a crawl.
Tomorrow will be the real test. Got some 20"+ poplar logs to saw, 16' long.
WOOOOHOOOO!!
Still a few bugs to work out, but so far, this is a HUGE improvement!
Cut 1400 board feet today, twice what I was doing last week
AND.. I didn't even get to the big poplars yet, this was all logs about the same size as last week, and almost all of it in 1x6
AND.. I used about 2/3 the fuel doing it! And by that, I mean I cut 1400bf with 2/3 the fuel I used to cut 700bf.
The main bug is the surging up and down it does at idle speed ( 1800rpm ) while running the hydraulics, and sometimes the carriage up/down and feed motors. Mostly the hydraulics, though. It keeps speed when I run use them at full throttle (blade engaged) though I can still hear it pulling down a bit.
Is this an issue with the governor mechanism?
Or is this an electrical issue?
The alternator light comes on, and flickers while sawing at higher feed rates. Doesn't happen in wider cuts at full load, just when I'm zipping thru the 6" cants.
My thinking is that maybe the alternator is wore out again, and the motors are pulling juice from the Honda magneto, thus robbing it from the plugs?
Or maybe I just hooked something up wrong?
how many hours did the onan have on it
Not really sure about that. The mill shows 2400. I got it it with about 1800 hours on it. The mill is a '92 model, but the motor was replaced somewhere along the line. Not sure if it was new or used at the time, either.
The engine "surgeing" at idle when using the hydraulics may actually be alternator loading.
The hydraulic pump may well be demanding in excess of 100 amps and at idle speed the alternator may not be able to keep up with the demand. 100 amps is about 1400 watts and approx. 2hp not taking into consideration mechaincal-electric conversion losses.
If you really want to make sure, disconnect the alternator and operate the hydraulic pump with the engine running at idle. If the surgeing doesn't happen, it's just normal loading. An undercharged battery could also be a culprit with the battery not providing it's fair share of power at engine idle.
Actually, the hyd. pump draws 200 amps. :o
The alternator is the one WM specifies for it.
The battery was a tad low this morning, a little over 10 volts across the terminals with engine off, and 12 volts while running.
I adjusted the throttle linkage and got it to hold idle while running the pump and motors (at the same time, even! ) Toward the end of the day it started surging a bit again, but it would usually catch up and idle again after a few surges.
I'll check voltage again tomorrow.
Anyhow, I went over my numbers again, and seems I was off by 300bf, so it was only 1100 bf. Still pretty good, though, considering I spent about an hour moving logs, and another hour getting a new blade wheel belt.
Today, I got into the big poplars, sawing 2x6x16' and sawed around 1700bf
They dragged a bunch of red oak down the hill for me to saw, so I will be on this job a couple more days
8)
Well, it is doing the surging up and down thing again.
I did like Slabs suggested, and disconnected the alternator, and indeed, it stopped doing it, and idled normally.
I should be able to get through tomorrow fine, then I will pull the alternator off, and have it tested.
So, what exactly is alternator loading? I have a vague idea, but not entirely sure of the details.
The alternator is probably doing just what it should do-producing all the energy it can at the rpm during idle. The engine may not have the capacity to support the alternator demand at idle speed.
I'd rather see the alternator voltage up around 14 at operating rpm but it's probably doing an adequate job as it is. If you're still not happy with it a bench check will tell all. Make sure the battery is up to snuff while you're at it. A good overnight trickle charge should help. Again, the battery not giving it's fair share to the hydraulic pump could signal diminished capacity.
Ok, I think I get it.
Keep in mind that "idle speed" is 1800rpm in this case. WM hydraulic mills ( maybe others, too- I don't know ) are set up this way to keep the battery charged.
Took the alternator and battery in this morning.
Alternator tested good, battery bad.
Glad I spent the extra money on the WM alternator, and the premium battery with the 3 year replacement. I'm on my second replacement now, with a little over a year left. Think I can get one more out of the deal? :D
Haven't put it all back together yet, gotta weld that stupid little alternator bracket part that keeps breaking.