Still making benches

[WV Sawmiller]

   I put 4 of my benches in a tourism center down in Virginia and discounted and sold 6 of my discontinued models and such last week. One thing I have discovered is benches longer than 4' are a hard sell. I guess because they don't fit in the back seat or cargo area of a van or SUV. From now on I am going to concentrate on 3 & 4 ft long benches unless I have a special order for something longer. We have a street festival coming up later this month and I want to make a few for that. Many prospective customers will be coming in on special trains and it may be too much to hope for them to take one back but other tourists will be coming by road.

  I looked through my stock and found a small wild cherry LE 8/4 slab that had been drying a year or so. I trimmed a little off one end that was pretty rough then took a wire brush to it and knocked off the bark and punky sapwood remaining. I drilled out the mortises with a 1-1/2" spade bit and grabbed 4 mostly quarter round legs out of my stock. I took my draw knife and trimmed off the bark and sanded them and applied a light coat of tung oil. I drove the legs on with plenty of wood glue but noted the tenons had shrunk a little and they were not as tight as I like. I let them dry overnight, cut the excess off with my Japanese pull saw then put the bench on the mill and cut all 4 legs off to 17" height. I sanded the benches with 80 then 120 grit belt sander and drove a steel sledge hammer wedge into each tenon. I then tried something new - I counter sunk the wedges about 1/4" or so and made up some wood putty with the dust from the sander and wood glue. I packed that in the mortise around the tenon and wedge split and let it dry overnight. This afternoon I sanded the excess wood putty off and applied a light coat of tung oil. I am happy with the results and will try the countersinking the wedges more and custom made wood putty in the future. I think this is a size and finish that will sell more readily to my markets.


 

 

[btulloh]

Are you using a tung oil with uv blockers?

[WV Sawmiller]

@btulloh ,

   This batch is 100% pure tung oil. No additives. I bought a quart a few weeks ago and ordered a gallon last night and I also ordered 2 more lbs of wedges from my supplier (House Handle Company in Cassville MO).

   What is the deal with the UV blockers? Do they help protect the wood or what?

[btulloh]

They really help maintaining the color of the wood for outside use. That may or may not be desirable depending on the look you're going for. 

They may help keep the finish from breaking down as fast. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   These are not really intended for real outdoor use or I'd have used white oak or locust to build them. I figure more on a porch or inside a cabin or man cave or such. (Of course once purchased the customer can bore holes in them and use then in his outhouse for all I care. :D )

    I know UV will break down epoxy and poly and such but does it have as much effect on tung oil?

[btulloh]

@WV Sawmiller 

I was just curious what you were using, not finding fault by any means.

There used to be some good exterior tung oil products available at local retailers that I used and liked, but not any more.  No longer available.  The things I've tried from local sources have not been very impressive and I'm kinda tired of buying things and not using them.  I need to stop by a marine supply house and see what they have these days.  

There have been some good discussions about finishes, in relation to outdoor furniture as well as log cabins.  Some of these sound pretty good, but I haven't ordered any of them yet.  The only thing that irritates me more than paying for products locally that I don't like is paying for products AND shipping and finding out it's not what I'm looking for.

I'm pretty sure it's the EPA that has made some of my go-too finishes disappear.   :

==

It looks like you're getting a handle on your local bench market.  Nice going.  Keep us posted.

[btulloh]

I know UV will break down epoxy and poly and such but does it have as much effect on tung oil?

Somewhat, but tung oil in general (as you no doubt are aware) breaks down outside anyway.  

Some people like to keep the color (especially ERC) and some like the weathered gray.  That's where the UV blockers really help.

I like your benches and the countersunk steel wedge.  That's a good solution for certain applications.

[WV Sawmiller]

@btulloh

  I have tried using wooden wedges a couple of times. To do so I had to split the tenon (I used a jig saw) before installing the bench leg then I still had trouble driving the wedges in after I put the legs on. This is much more work and time consuming. The steel wedges are very easy to install even without pre-splitting the tenon and they work very well to tighten the tenon but they don't look as good as wood so countersinking and filling will custom wood putty made of glue and sawdust is one option. If the wedges were counter sunk deep enough I could just drive a wood wedge piece on top then saw off the excess, sand it and apply finish.

  I still need to find me a good piece of small scrap flat iron to use to countersink the wedges. I just used a flat washer held it with a pair of pliers while I hammered with a 3 lb baby sledge and it worked but a flat bar would have been easier to use.

   BTW - I never interpreted any of your comments or suggestion as criticism but thanks for your concern. :D

[Old Greenhorn]

Fine looking benches WV! I have made some of these and given them away as gifts as I learned. I find they are easy to make between other work and probably don't take much time. If I had to guess, a short bench takes me around 1-2 hours, spread out over several days of glue or finish drying. Would you say yours take about the same? or do you put more time into the fine finish, which looks better than mine I think. 
 The wedge idea you use is interesting. How wide are your wedges? I have not yet felt the need to wedge, the glue seems to handle fit up pretty well.
 I had been considering making a bunch of these over the winter as I have slabs available and finding an outlet for them. I agree with your assessment about length and had not considered that before. I also see milking stools selling well at craft fairs, because they are small, I think, and cheaper.
 I use either tung oil or danish oil on mine, then cover with poly because they are more usable for outdoor purposes. Maybe I should try just the tung oil on one or two and see what wins. I need to make some stuff I can sell.
 Again nice stuff. I wonder if this is a major part of your income or just a filler to make good use of your materials and add a few bucks to the till?

Tom
Here's one of mine:


 

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Looks similar to what I make only looks to me like you drill your mortises straight and I angle mine. If the board is wide enough straight works fine. I have made them with wood as narrow as about 8" if I find the right slab. 

    I like the milking stool idea and may try that with a short piece I cut off today. I thought about making them with big cookies and using 3 legs. Would be the same when cutting on the mill. 

   The steel wedges I use are about an inch wide and 1/8" thick and 1-1-1/4 inches long. I bought 16 off a guy today for $3 at a flea market which is enough for 4 normal 4 leg benches. I ordered 2 lb last night with should do 20-25 benches. They are the same ones used in ax or sledge hammer heads and they work very well to tighten the tenon especially if the leg was a little green when cut and shrunk a little during drying. I wish I could find a 1-7/16" spade bit. I might could find a 1-3/8" bit. 

    What I really would like would be to find an auger bit 1-1/2" or the above sizes as that should cut much easier and smoother. I need to start looking for them I guess.

    Time spent sounds about the same as I do. They are a hobby/side line for me right now. Also some really ugly logs are just begging to become benches but would not work well for anything else - Well Brad would probably make special knee braces out of them but I haven't found a better use for them. :D

   I have not tried the poly over the tung oil and was led to believe it would not stick. Do you have problems with it sticking?

[Old Greenhorn]

No there is no issue with adherence at all. I allow time for the oil to soak in and dry. putting the poly on top makes it more weatherproof if left outside. I am told it will yellow a bit in the sun. But when water hits it, it just beads up. I did a slab back in July that I used as a table at a camp and it was out in lousy weather for a week, used as the cook table and bar. It took all the abuse just fine and wiped clean easily with no staining from coffee are all the other stuff that was spilled on it. Then it went to a neighbors for a party as the drink table, then to another neighbors place for a wedding and it still sits there (I should fetch that back home). I treat it like a test able. The only thing that has caused damage is throwing it in the trailer on edge and driving a 100 miles with it bouncing around with no padding. I gave it a quick sanding and another coat of poly and it was good to go.
I like the poly finish and that it makes the wood pretty bullet proof to the weather and food/drink stains.
[edit: Oh and my legs are angled, they just don't show in this photo. these photos are in my gallery and also in my sawmilling thread back around June or so.]

[Old Greenhorn]

Here is the bottom of that bench. It's a narrow bench so the leg angle is slight. Yeah, they still look straight here, but they are not. I would say a 4 degree angle, give or take 1/4 degree. ;D :D



 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I think I saw somewhere where somebody had a slab for a bench and it was not thick enough for the tenons to hold well enough so he glued and fastened a spacer over the spot where the legs were attached. It did not have to be the full length of the bench nor did it show. A 1/2" to 1" additional spacer gave the tenon a lot more bite and a better hold. Just adding a 4" X 8" piece of half inch plywood where the mortises are drilled could do the trick. I have a few pieces where the mortise is only in about 6/4 of wood and they get loose. Adding another half inch would have solved that. On the round pieces I guess you could use thin laminated additions to fit and still build up around the curve.

[WV Sawmiller]

 

 My last bench project were these 2 White oak ones. The legs are off the same 8/4 LE slabs. The long one is 36" and short one is 30". We will see if the shorter benches sell better.


Tung oil applied on the bench and legs. These are strong enough but I prefer a little bigger legs. Probably 2.5" is about right.
 

 I also included a couple of benches sawhorses I recently made off a 7' poplar top and the stretchers are shorter pieces salvaged off my recent order for 3" battens. The rejects with too much wane or curve still had good salvageable pieces for projects like this.

  Next project is a couple of 42" curved locust pieces. I have not measured to see if they will fit in the planer or sanding all the way.

[Old Greenhorn]

I like 'em WV! they just get better and better. Those mortise holes and pegs seem to fit a bit cleaner on these, I see no small voids like I get sometimes. My only comment is that I like the 2" legs, they seem sleeker and not as clunky. But I guess it is relative to the length also. Short and fat is not very appealing.
 These look real nice and should sell fast. DO you just do one coat of oil or go back over a few times?
 Now you got my juices flowing to get some slabs worked up and up to the shop for the cold weather. I got logs to mill and I gotta get at it first thing in the morning. Frost coming in tonight, but I gotta catch up to you.

[terrifictimbersllc]

WV remind me what is your method of joining the legs to the top?

[WV Sawmiller]

OGH,

  I did a better job drilling the mortises of using a scrap piece under the bench top so the spade bit did not get stuck as bad and it made a cleaner cut. I am looking for a good, relatively inexpensive 1.5" auger which I think will give an even cleaner cut. A Forstner bit is clean but I have trouble using one on an angled cut. i guess I could start with a spade bit then switch bits and finish with the Forstner. I still think the auger is a better answer. This has one coat of pure Tung oil, not Tung oil finish like you usually find in local hardware stores, and I usually at least touch it up with a little more. When using Tung oil finish product I applied multiple coats. The legs are personal preference. I experimented with bark on tops and limbs, some quarter round or with one face live edge. As long as it is over 1.5" I still think the weak point is the tenon itself anyway.

TT,

  Take a trip down memory lane here back to reply #37 where I pretty much show the whole process. I've picked up a few more tricks such as using metal wedges (Ax/Sledge hammer wedges) and later even counter sinking the metal wedges and filling in with wood or wood putty made from sawdust and wood glue and sanding flush.

  If that doesn't answer your questions by all means let me know and I'll be glad to provide more details.

[WDH]

What is the market value of the 36" one?

[Old Greenhorn]

WV, I know exactly what you mean and what you need. They make a Forstner bit that has a hole through the center to take a pilot drill. It is held in with a set screw. I think @doc henderson has some, maybe it was someone else. I don't have one, but it is on my list when I get back to benches. It has a long lead to get you started right.
 Yes, I ALWAYS put a scrap (or workbench surface) under the hole to prevent breakout, makes for a clean hole.
 When you try the auger, let me know how it works. I am looking for a used one somewhere in a yard sale box. ;D

 Whatever you are doing, it sure looks good. Funny thing about these benches, they show a bit about what is going on in the mind of the builder more than a lot of the finer building projects, I think. It's a little like making music. A good pro musician will tell you that when improvising, there are no wrong notes, what matters is the next notes you follow with to make it right. You can look at ANY 'defect' in a bench or slab table like this and say 'yeah, I left that defect in because.....' and there are a thousand good reasons why, every time. ;D :D 8)

[WV Sawmiller]

Danny,

 I will probably ask $150 for the 36" one and maybe $125 for the 30" one and maybe offer to sell them for $250 for the pair as an incentive here next week at our annual street festival.

OGH,

  I found a 1.5" Irwin auger that is about 7" long and ordered one off Amazon a few minutes ago. I will probably hold off on my locust benches until it gets here. I'll let you know how they cut. One nice trait about a spade bit is I have had some success sharpening them with a file. I would not know how to sharpen an auger.

  Yes, all future cuts will have a scrap piece on the back side.

EDIT/Add-on: Defect? What Defect? That is character I overlooked and need to raise the price now that I see it. :D

[WDH]

Howard,

Very nicely done.  They are a good buy at those prices. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard,

Very nicely done.  They are a good buy at those prices.

I know that prices on these things is very regional and even location based, but I think I would ask more, around here at least. I didn't see any defects, but yeah. they add value. :D
 When I did that wedding bar, there were a lot of questions about how it was made, and the wood, etc. It made for some good talk over several dozen beers.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Here are the latest 3 benches I just finished. Two with curve should go as a pair while the other small one can be sold alone or with the other two. All are Black Locust. When I added a tung oil finish they shine up a yellow tint that reminds me of the pictures I see here of Oasage orage/Bodark/Bois d'arc. These should be very weather resistant.


 The curved pair are 42" long and the small one I saved from my slab pile and cut it off to 28". It just barely fits across my bed rails on my mill and I have to use a shim piece on the side for clamping when I cut the legs to length. I made some custom putty with wood glue and the sawdust from sanding but I do not like the color match. I need to start experimenting with epoxy I guess.


 This is my latest bench making tool that came in the mail from Amazon today. I have not tried it yet but have high hopes for cleaner mortise cuts and more perfect tenon fit-ups. BTW - that bench it is sitting on is barely 6.5" wide between the bark which proves you do not have to have a wide LE or edged slab to make a nice and very functional bench.

[btulloh]

That bit will work pretty well. Use low speed. Brace yourself!  Use the helper handle too. Definitely back up the exit with a block or cutoff - they can make nasty exit wound. 

[samandothers]

Looking good on the locust benches!  Seems I remember you talking about a 5th leg on curved benches.  These feel stable enough to avoid the use of the extra leg?