USFS testing Electric F-150's

[dgdrls]

The Forest Service Is Leaning into Electric Vehicles

"Operating in Pennsylvania's Allegheny National Forest, Michigan's Huron-Manistee National Forest, and the White Mountain National Forest"

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/forest-service-electric-vehicles/?itm_source=parsely-api

D

[Southside]

My wife worked for the USFS and BLM a few years ago, out in Oregon  They had hybrids at the time and promptly got rid of them from any fleet vehicle that went off road. Reliability and power were major issues. 

[beenthere]

The USFS is just another Gov't agency, and just like the USPS going to electric, are trying to accommodate (brown nose) the "leaders". But it is all free money to them.. not the first time and won't be the last. 

[nativewolf]

We really like ours, sadly they increased the prices but when the USFS ordered these test vehicles they were actually cheaper than the gas versions so they got a very good deal on them.

Inside it is just the same as the other f150s.  Range will be an issue if they have long distance trips on the standard battery, the extended battery might have been nice.  Power going up mountains is incredible.  They'll lose some range if doing heavy loads, not suitable for fire fighting rigs yet.  

I happen to think that the normal ol crew cab f150 is just about the perfect cab, lots of room and not fancy.  Seats in rear fold all the way up which leaves a ton of space for cargo if you need to haul something.

The frunk (the area where the engine used to be) is my favorite part of the truck, huge space, we put three saws in there and nobody knows they are there.  It's also very easy to access, I'll take a pic one day and add it to the thread.

We'll see on reliability, the Teslas that are owned by friend and family have been very reliable.  The Ford Lightning though is a first EV truck for Ford and I know they've already started redesign to take advantage of costs savings offered by pure electric vehicles.  

I'm glad the USFS is testing it out, they'll save a bit on fuel and they may find all the secure storage a big help.  I expect EV prices to come down quite a bit starting late next year and continuing forward.  Also they are so much cheaper for a fleet operator that there should be quite a bit of cost savings over the long haul (probably won't change brake pads, no oil changes, no radiator changes, no transmission issues, no gas or diesel, etc).   

[barbender]

I had not considered the "frunk" storage (will the term "bonnet" get any traction?"
Enclosed dry storage is a good thing, for sure. I have to go shovel and sift all the buried goodies in the back of my Dodge pickup form the 2' of accumulated snow. 

[Ianab]

They had hybrids at the time and promptly got rid of them from any fleet vehicle that went off road. Reliability and power were major issues

I don't think that's an inherent problem with hybrid vehicles, more like design problems with a new model?Toyota / Lexus don't seem to have any particular reliability issue with their hybrids. And power mostly relates to the specs of the motors, so a lot of "supercars" are going to hybrid now, because you can have the electric AND gas power on tap together. 

NZ Post has just taken delivery of some new Electric delivery vans. Yet to evaluate how practical they will be for the longer rural runs, but for stop / start around town stuff they should work well. These are Mercedes vehicles, and from what I can see they use a common platform across their range. Anyway, they are rated at 200hp, with stupid amount of torque, so shouldn't be slugs to drive, and the stop start should actually suit the electric system better (Regen braking and no power used when stopped) 

Also spotted this parked next to me at the supermarket the other day. 





LDV is a Chinese brand, but that's a fully electric double cab ute. Now unfortunately their vehicles are pretty crappy, and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. But they do exist and you can buy one today, 

[SwampDonkey]

Most vehicles will work nice brand new. On the one hand at least, they will be tested for worthiness in the back woods. Be interesting after 50,000 miles of use on rough back roads to see the results. Road tests on pavement I've seen, hauling a camping trailer, they barely make 100 miles and that is in warm weather.

[nativewolf]

Cold will be an issue, they will need to keep battery conditioned.   This is early days on the trucks and Ford is early days on EVs.  I dont think off-road is an issue and I have no idea how many miles they drive a day,  I assume they chose these spots because avg miles driven are low.  

Good on the USFS to be thinking about it and doing a limited test.  

[SwampDonkey]

A good test case because they've got to do it somehow. Better than me spending $120,000 a truck that might be a brick by 50,000 miles. :D Even though performance may or may not be an issue, the overall industry is up against the wall because of stuff in short supply, most importantly battery components. If the gas gets shut off a lot of us will be walking or on horse back. Either no vehicle or no money for one. High demand with fewer resources means high cost and fewer to even buy  even if you had the dough. It will be fun for awhile for the few. ;D How many years have some been waiting on the Lightning, and now Cybertruck?

[nativewolf]

Course you know they paid $44k for each, now maybe in canuks that is 120, I don't know.  It's good to see them testing, I am sure we'll hear a good bit about it.  

As far as bricking the battery, they are warrantied for over 100k.  Tesla new battery was designed to go 1 million miles.  We'll see but they get hundreds of thousands today.  

[nativewolf]

Companies waited even longer on the Tesla Semi and that is after having put up 100% of the money.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtgaYEh-qSk

Pepsi testing 100 of these this year.  The economics on the Semi are mind boggling good, pays for the truck in 3-4 years depending on how many miles they rack up.  Of course that battery is well understood and they'll get a million miles or so on them. 

[SwampDonkey]

Real world cost of the truck in NB, depends on power source for charging and if upgrades to the house are required. If you have an old house on 120 amp entry, it ain't enough juice.

A green machine: New Brunswicker uses solar to power his electric pickup truck | CBC News

I think battery life is mostly a prediction based on lower miles and nice roads. Certainly some vehicles have gone over 50,000 miles. But I'm not sure Lightening as been around long enough for those miles yet, couldn't get one.

[SwampDonkey]

For perspective, I'm in a rural area full of old houses, there's 10 old places between 2 miles in either direction. In the city of Fredericton, the whole down town are old relics of the past. All the new(er) places are out at the fringes.

[Dom]

It's a interesting time in the transport industry with the development of the EV's. I like that there will be options now for buyers: petrol, electric, hybrids. I still wonder why Asian countries are developing hydrogen and North America is not. Funding would be the biggest factor.
I read the same article for the lightning in NB. 
 For the colder climates electric works but the range is quite reduced based on a few articles. In Canada a business can deduct a EV 100%, makes it very appealing to business owners. 

[Don P]

They should start hitting govdeals in a few years 8).
Several years ago I was in the catalogs shopping for a long block and saw a Prius battery. I've forgotten exactly but remember thinking it was about the same as an engine. I've seen a lot of them on the road and very few beside the road. The only one that comes to mind was a young neighbor who had responsibly pulled over to make a call and I was the second person to stop and see if he was ok  :D

[SwampDonkey]

There are lots of businesses in Canada where employees use there own vehicle for conditions of employment. I wonder if they get any deductions through a 2200 form or something. Traditionally deductions are based on work miles driven in a year put toward expense credits. To buy a vehicle? Nope, not as an employee. To my knowledge you can't get a capital cost allowance unless the business owns them.

[SwampDonkey]

Well I've never even seen an EV in a parking lot at the grocery store, maybe they wouldn't go those days. :D Point being, anecdotal observations aren't evidence of outcomes.

[Southside]

Cold weather, rotten back woods roads, tons of gear. Reliability is key. Lot of folks had serious range and charging issues in the last cold snap that was teens to single digits. What happens in real winter when the mercury drops to -10,-20, or worse? 

The hybrids they had were heavier than an ICE, mileage was horrible, handling was impacted, and payload was reduced as a result. Those are real issues for a vehicle that your life depends on when there is no cell service or AAA to come and get you.

[Dom]

SD, the 100% deduction I referred to is a CCA rule, and will apply up to fiscal year 2023. Only applicable to businesses sadly. I didn't read the form 2200 this year for any changes yet. 
There's a few EV in Moncton area, mostly Tesla, Hyundai/kia, and a few ford mach E and lightning. Starting to see more and more, same for charging stations.
I'm waiting on info from Mazda on the new plug in hybrid to be released this month.

[Don P]

The tesla did drive by my pile of frozen diesels for Christmas dinner  

[Southside]

Yup, but in an emergency operation situation those diesels would have been sitting there idling.  Uncomfortable truth? Yup.  Reality when lives are on the line? Absolutely.  Back in the real woods when it would be -40F for the weekend equipment was fueled up and left running, usually with a grapple left rotating so the hydraulic oil was warn enough to not gel up.  Otherwise it was not going to run when you got back and you would just break things spending the day trying to make it run.  

EV's have their place, just not where support infrastructure is lacking.  

[Hilltop366]

Well I've never even seen an EV in a parking lot at the grocery store, maybe they wouldn't go those days. :D Point being, anecdotal observations aren't evidence of outcomes.

You must really be in the middle of nowhere.... even down here at the end of the world I see an electric vehicle or two most days. ;D

[bigblockyeti]

I had not considered the "frunk" storage (will the term "bonnet" get any traction?"
Enclosed dry storage is a good thing, for sure. I have to go shovel and sift all the buried goodies in the back of my Dodge pickup form the 2' of accumulated snow.

It's to keep the generator clean and dry so you don't have to clean away leaves, dirt and snow before firing it up to charge the battery when the closest $55 charge up station is 300 miles away.

[Mooseherder]

Road salt has to be a major concern.  

[SwampDonkey]

You must really be in the middle of nowhere.... even down here at the end of the world I see an electric vehicle or two most days. ;D

None, come on up and show me some. Road to nowhere, yes. :D :D

[SwampDonkey]

https://www.cyvgm.com

0 EV inventory

https://www.woodstocktoyota.ca/new

0 EV inventory

https://www.connellchryslerdealer.com/en/new-catalog/chrysler/2022-chrysler-pacifica-hybrid-touring-l--id19987

1 hybrid available

https://www.valleyhonda.ca/new/pg/2

2 hydrids available

[nativewolf]

The really cold weather takes a few miles off but that is less and less an issue as they have learned to engineer around that problem.  Rough roads comments I don't understand, not that big a deal.  The USFS guys are not going  in Super rough country but on logging roads and gravel, low speed, super mileage.  Weight and cold are issues so I will be curious to see how they do in these tests as they didn't pick a single warm forests.  

[SwampDonkey]

I'm very curious how the trucks deal with rough roads because they do a number on front ends on large gas trucks. In 9 years I've never had to replace front end hardware on my Tacoma. I've seen lots of large pickups take a big beating. So it's not a gas versus battery thing, just about how they hold up. And some roads are beaver floated that we cross, might be 12" water, might be 18". Been through a few in the Tacoma. If you work on Crabbe land, you'll be crossing beaver works. :D

[barbender]

Woods roads are definitely tough on front ends.

[SwampDonkey]

The only charger in Woodstock is at the community college. The nearest one after that is out on the 4-lane outside of town which is Tesla for the tourist travellers. A Tim's, a full menu restaurant and gas station there. Doubt many at homes, never see an EV.

[Dom]

There's no doubt that forestry worker travel more than the average person, and in areas that may not have charging stations. @SwampDonkey , I hear you for the vehicle weight. IIHS tested their crash testing gear to make sure it was up to par. The Hummer EV is around 10,000LBS, heavy vehicle to be bumping all over Carleton county.  ;)

@nativewolf , are you able to warm up the truck cab when its plugged in at home? That's a nice feature I see on the Tesla, nice warm car to get in. No need to clear the windshield.

[Southside]

Mid '90s we were issued 1/2 ton Chevys with V6 engines to "save money". We called them "quarter pounders" the entire truck was dead by 35,000 miles. Front end, engine, rear suspension, transmission, etc. 

Emergency work in the woods is as tough as it gets on a vehicle. Two hundred miles on a washboard road will absolutely eat bushings. 

[SwampDonkey]

The D20 from Deersdale to Millville would be a good test road as would Stanley through to Boiestown, let alone the 107 from Juniper to Stanley with broken up pavement, some craters 2 feet deep, 8 feet wide. The proving grounds of any vehicle on the market I assure you of that. :D

[barbender]

I remember bringing my 03 Dodge 3500 woods truck in to get the front end replaced, "what do you do?!" was what the mechanics question to me😊 I apparently didn't strike him as a kid that went mudding and beating on his truck for fun. But that is basically what you do with a woods truck, every day. Drive 50 miles to the woods road, then hammer in a mile or two to get to the jobsite.

[Southside]

Chevy brought up an Astro Van that had a new airbag system installed in it with tons and tons of sensors throughout the vehicle, interior looked like the space shuttle. Said "make it go off by driving".

First thing we did was change the the tires before it left the hot top because it wasn't going to go 10 miles with those sneakers on it.  We put probably 1500 miles on that in a week or so, Realty Rd, Pinkham Rd, 105 Road. Didn't aim for potholes or anything stupid, just drove it. The dash, door panels, and head liner were falling off of it but the bag never went off.

Would have loved to see the data they recorded. 

[Dom]

The D20 from Deersdale to Millville would be a good test road as would Stanley through to Boiestown, let alone the 107 from Juniper to Stanley with broken up pavement, some craters 2 feet deep, 8 feet wide. The proving grounds of any vehicle on the market I assure you of that. :D

I have yet to make it to Juniper, but travelled on the 104 up to Cloverdale.  A Hippity Hoppity kind of road. There's some roads that I just plain avoid in the Spring.  :D 

[SwampDonkey]

I would not count on any season on some of them roads. Last summer I travelled about 30 km from the D20 over to the Becaquimac by Cloverdale and just before I made it to the far end was a bog hole of soupy clay water for about 20 feet. I gunned her. If you go fast enough you can float. :D To go back to where you started at the D20 and then come through Millville you add on another 50 kms besides the already wasted miles. :D

Thankfully most of my travel was within 25 miles on better roads last summer.

[nativewolf]

The only charger in Woodstock is at the community college. The nearest one after that is out on the 4-lane outside of town which is Tesla for the tourist travellers. A Tim's, a full menu restaurant and gas station there. Doubt many at homes, never see an EV.

One at your Irving oil, one at sarchfield electric.  2 over in Houlton .  Seems like a decent number.  Not counting Tesla ones since I dont use them.  Tesla's have the best chargers.  

The one at Irving is quite often visited. Every ev from a Lucid Air ($$$$$$) to Hyundai's to Mach e to rivian to Chevy bolts .  Lots of visits in December and in January too.  

[Southside]

80 miles round trip to charge a vehicle?  

[Ianab]

80 miles round trip to charge a vehicle?  

That's public fast chargers. If you buy an electric vehicle you get a cheap "overnight" charger installed in the garage where it's parked. You can charge most electric vehicles off a standard domestic outlet, but it might take more than a day. A charger that can be wired into a domestic level  system might be 12 hours for a full charge. 
Friend owns a Tesla and uses it every day for a ~100 mile commute. Gets home with ~60% battery left, charges it back to 100% overnight. Rinse and repeat. The public chargers are only for longer road trips, some owners never have to use them at all. 

[SwampDonkey]

One at your Irving oil, one at sarchfield electric.  2 over in Houlton .  Seems like a decent number.  Not counting Tesla ones since I dont use them.  Tesla’s have the best chargers.  

The one at Irving is quite often visited. Every ev from a Lucid Air ($$$$$$) to Hyundai’s to Mach e to rivian to Chevy bolts .  Lots of visits in December and in January too.  

There's not any at the 2 Irvings in Woodstock, non at Broadway or Gallop Court. The Irving that has one nearby is the one I said before, on the 4-lane outside of town with restaurant and Tim's. That gets a lot of traffic, long before chargers, a lot of locals eat at the restaurant plus all the Tim's addicts next door. There are a couple listed that are at homes, one in Grafton, one Lwr Woodstock. Sarchfield's has a charger but they park their work vehicles in front of it. If you search EV chargers they no longer come up. I doubt anyone is going to ME to charge, from NB. They go over for gas, not electrons. Then the college one in town I mentioned before. Next one is 15 miles down river at Meductic, which is on the river front 3 miles off the 4-lane highway. It's on the old highway. The station up on the 4-lane exit is not it.

In my work path there's none for miles around. I go under the 4 lane and two gas stations there, no charger. They might possibly be getting one for the new hotel, I don't see a listing. My local village is 6 miles from the 4  lane, none there and I'm another 5 miles west near the border crossing (3 miles down the road). I know if I'm driving by one on low charge and it's near my supper time, I'm not in the mood to wait for no charge before I get home to my supper. :D

[SwampDonkey]

A lot who work might not have a choice but to charge home, right now that would be the case here. A lot of old 100 amp entries here, lots of old wiring in old houses. That isn't sufficient or safe. New urban construction around towns most likely all have 200 amp min.

[Ianab]

From memory an overnight charger needs about 30 A @ 220V. That would need a new breaker and wire run, even in a modern house. But it's well within the capacity of a house supply. You factor the cost of doing that work into the purchase of the vehicle.  
  

 
Almost everyone, locally at least, charges at home. If you aren't using the full battery capacity daily, then a domestic outlet would keep the vehicle topped up and not draw any more power than a toaster oven. But if you are only putting 1,500w into a 60 Kw/h battery, then it wold be ~40 hours to fully charge. If you are only commuting locally, that might be enough. Putting 6Kw into the same battery is ~10 hours (overnight), for a full charge.  

[Southside]

What happens when the next vehicle needs a 50 amp supply? Get another home equity loan for the electrical upgrade? 

[Dom]

We're going to build a new house either this summer or next and planning on running a plug for a EV. If I only have to stop at a gas station on long trips, I'd be some happy.

[SwampDonkey]

Got enough juice here as I am running 220V out in the shop from the house. I have no plans for any EV charging, we'll see how it unfolds 10 years from now. No one I know in this area wants one. If they do, it must be some kind of secret. Nobody I work with and none of the seniors nor their kin that I know.

There's no 3 phase lines anywhere near here for souped up amperage. 5 miles away.

[Don P]

We can purchase non tesla universal chargers from the power company, last I checked I think it was about $700. A former client put one in for a Bolt. It would not hurt a thing to run a heavier wire and just change devices in the future ("futureproofing").

If you all remember me sliding my truck and trailer off a ~20% mountain road that back in the day was the trail to the community, uhh, copper workings, that's where the Tesla lives.

[Mountaynman]

Here in the southern adirondacks in ny there are several charging stations around for the tourists but most people her know the state is using salt treated with calcium and magnesium chloride to work at lower temperatures been 3 years and the vehicles are already worse for it. From my experience the normal salt ate the wiring and caused greenitis in fuse blocks cant even believe how an ev would drive every day in this stuff its bad

[nativewolf]

It is going to be interesting to see how the trucks do at those locations, check in  about 2028 to see what happened.  

[Dom]

It's going to happen quick, by 2026 20% of car sales in Canada are to be Electric or plug in hybrid. Plug in hybrid makes lots of sense for rural. 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ev-mandates-2026-1.6693967

[upnut]

By the time it gets handed down through the USFS ranks, from Boss's pet to crummy, they should have an idea how it works. How that translates into policy is a whole other matter.....

Scott B.

[SwampDonkey]

Canada isn't moving, Minister Guilbeault is pushing. You've got to have the battery materials first, it's a major struggle to get the stuff as it is, with most of it using slaves. Maybe he has figured out how to extract it from sea water economically. Will likely use fossil fuels to do it. I would think the concentration in sea water is very low, like 0.2 ppm, and will take a lot of energy to retrieve it.

"But those efforts rely on evaporating away much of the water to concentrate the lithium, which requires extensive land use and time. To date such efforts have not proved economical." [2020 article]

Seawater could provide nearly unlimited amounts of critical battery material | Science | AAAS

Cobalt Red, a new book being released on Cobalt slavery in the Congo

[Don P]

One downside I see is there's gonna be less biscuits sold at the country store with people already filled up at home driving by that pump.

[SwampDonkey]

If they're a Tim's addict they'll be stopping anyway. A lot of them are at gas bars now. Many of them are steps away or built in. That 4-lane place is at Murray's with gas bar, restaurant and Tim's. The busiest EV charge station (one of 2or 3) in the area. Highway traffic, the drive through province. And you have to stop sometime, pee break, none on the whole highway unless  a gas bar. Bring your pee bottle. The highway is fenced. :D

[Don P]

Here is my poco's EV page, I imagine most utilities have something similar;
Electric Cars (appalachianpower.com)

It is worth talking to them pre build if there is any possibility, which there is, of EV's, interconnects and transfer switching. There isn't a whole lot of hook em up and throw the switch being built anymore.

[charles mann]

For the past 8yrs, at least only during the summer months and the rare into winter months in the southern states of the US, i have seen first hand the conditions our USFS avn managers put their gas/diesel vehicles through. 
The up side to an EV for those guys/gals, is the fuel bill from the constant idling and burning of gas/diesel fuel esp to keep cool and to keep the plethora of electronics charged. 
The down side is the same as mentioned above, draining the EV battery. I have never seen, nor do i expect to see in the near future, charging stations installed at each acft or at a minimum, a central location (fire base, smoke jumper base) or let alone a remote location like a farmer's field or the middle of nowhere in a clearing on some state or federal forestry land, at least none being installed without the use of petrol gennies to supply the power for those mobile charging stations. 

The EV thing has its pros and cons, but for emergency services, with the current infrastructure, esp in remote location (usually where wildfires happens), the ev is a recipe for disaster. EV for city dwelling emergency services, there should be more pros than cons and possible savings overall for tax dollars. 

Without the testings though, manufacturers wont know the full limitations and defects of the vehicles and where /what improvements needs to be made to suit the environment the original post is talking about. Battery limitations are the first hurdle to address in remote locations where their services may not allow them to see a charger for days. Of course im sure they (gov officials) would send them with a petrol geny to keep their battery charged, which is still a cost saving since the geny only needs to burn fuel while charging. 
Its definitely going to be balancing act for all involved. 

[upnut]

As a side note, Audi is back in the Dakar Rally this year with their electric racer:Dakar Rally 2023 | audi.com

I can't imagine a tougher test, they seem to be doing well. 

Scott B.

[bigblockyeti]

As a side note, Audi is back in the Dakar Rally this year with their electric racer:Dakar Rally 2023 | audi.com

I can't imagine a tougher test, they seem to be doing well.

Scott B.

Cruise around the east side of cleveland at over 12mph in something with less than 2' of suspension travel if you really want to see a tough test!  Might even get a chance to see if it's bullet proof.

[GRANITEstateMP]

The up side to an EV for those guys/gals, is the fuel bill from the constant idling and burning of gas/diesel fuel esp to keep cool and to keep the plethora of electronics charged. 
The down side is the same as mentioned above, draining the EV battery. I have never seen, nor do i expect to see in the near future, charging stations installed at each acft or at a minimum, a central location (fire base, smoke jumper base) or let alone a remote location like a farmer's field or the middle of nowhere in a clearing on some state or federal forestry land, at least none being installed without the use of petrol gennies to supply the power for those mobile charging stations. 

The EV thing has its pros and cons, but for emergency services, with the current infrastructure, esp in remote location (usually where wildfires happens), the ev is a recipe for disaster. EV for city dwelling emergency services, there should be more pros than cons and possible savings overall for tax dollars. 

  My big question is why push so hard for a full EV vehicle right now when something like a hybrid would seen to fill the role without ALL the drawbacks?

  A hybrid could give you your improved fuel mileage. You don't have the constant worry about range and charging stations, in low and slow speed your on batt, higher speed or more power needed the regular engine kicks in, when batt is low the engine can charge it enroute.  

  Yes there will be maintenance and reliability testing/issues, and no I wouldn't want it in a truly cold/arctic climate, but it seems like the round peg for the round hole in some instances.

  Still plenty of other drawbacks, but the hybrid would be an easier "sell" to me vs the full EV for this application.

[SwampDonkey]

And it the north you need a heater or it will be like driving those old WV vans with the heater not working most of the time and frost on all the glass. Scraper in hand driving instead of a phone, scrape scrape scrape. ;D The point here is heat drains battery power.

[Southside]

Why the sudden push? Prop up a chosen product that the free market isn't supporting. Without being propped up the mfg won't continue to develop and build these. 

Solar house connections are propped up much the same way with "feed in tariffs", pay an above market rate to get folks to sign on.

[Don P]

Look at what dino fuel costs in the rest of the world. Once we put our finger on the scale...
It's an effort in the right direction. I doubt things will be as fast or rash as either side wants. Fear not, you'll wear out your gas burner. We race along like a herd of turtles.

[Southside]

And the kids in the lithium mines in the Congo appreciate the employment. Pushing technology to improve it is one thing, pushing it for an agenda often does not result in the desired outcome. 

[Dom]

Fear not, you'll wear out your gas burner. We race along like a herd of turtles.

So true, I did actually lol. 
I think EV are nice and will help. I do think hydrogen and other means would be viable options. Competition improves the breed. I hope gas, electric, hydrogen, etc can compete in a similar market. If I were to buy right now it would be a plug in hybrid. Soon it may be a EV? Interesting times for sure. 

[nativewolf]

And the kids in the lithium mines in the Congo appreciate the employment. Pushing technology to improve it is one thing, pushing it for an agenda often does not result in the desired outcome.

And kids dying in Iraq and Ukraine due to fights over oil?  There is a great book on the history of oil, I suggest reading "the prize". Amazing story and so well written.  Sadly most recently the worlds wars often have the roots in oil.  
We are enjoying the heck out of our Ford Lightning and there were no Tax breaks at all for us.   We are on the road and it was 70, we left the dog in the truck stayed on 72 degrees inside as we left the AC going, took 6 miles of range off about $0.30 worth of juice.  

[SwampDonkey]

I certainly agree that oil has led to a few conflicts. Which part of Syria is being occupied? The oil part. :D But whether making war over resources or using slaves, it's all imperialism. Somebody wants something, no cost is too great to get it. Meanwhile it's someone else who suffers while we live in luxury. Let us have our way or we will sanction and bomb our way in and out. We've not been bombed out nor made to suffer too much and never bat an eye. But declare a different crisis where the ones already suffering for the cause could care less in their daily struggle to exist.

I'm glad you and the dog are enjoying your air conditioned EV in January. Hate to see you suffer too much. :D When lithium is exhausted by 2033 maybe we will be using sea water by then. ;D

There has been much written about war over water to. The day is coming, then we get to fight our allies. Which by the way are only allies because of compliance. ;)

[nativewolf]

Canada has lots of freshwater doesn't it?  Asking for a friend.


We are on a long road trip and it was surprisingly warm, way too warm to leave a dog in the cabin and he's a rescue dog with aggression issues so we can't leave him in the bed- he could seriously hurt a child reaching up to pet him.  Before we'd have to leave the car running to have the AC on.  

There is so much lithium out there it is not funny.  Lots of batteries for the energy side of things don't use lithium at all, they use iron.  Most of those are just getting to commercialization but I think it's clear that's where the batteries come from for solar/wind farms (over a decade of work).

[SwampDonkey]

Canada does, yes. I couldn't say that for a lot of countries. :D In 2013, Canada's Parliament passed the Transboundary Waters Protection Act. It banned bulk removal of water from waterways, including by pipeline, canal, tunnel, aqueduct or channel.

Lithium is in ocean water, good luck extracting it economically from 0.2 ppm. :D Since 75% of known Lithium reserves on land is in the Congo, to suggest it's bountiful is just blowing smoke. Peek demand on power is just after sunset in the winter months and solar will never be part of that solution, batteries can't store it long enough. The reality of batteries is, if it doesn't last days being drawn on, we better keep on looking for something a lot better. Iron isn't it, it's never been tested out in any meaningful way. As Peter Zeihan would put it, 'I'd rather put $1Trillion researching material science solutions that might work, than waste it on things we know don't work'. :D

[nativewolf]

So by not proven you mean the iron cells Edison invented have only run for over 100 years?   That's not proven?  

What is proven is that they are heavy.  Lots of new takes on Edison's work and some are very clever indeed.  Leno's original Edison battery powered car has batteries it shipped with over 100 years ago.  Just one of many.  


Re lithium maybe you don't know but most of the worlds lithium is in South America- Chile Argentina Bolivia .  That is 60% of the known reserves and enough to put a lithium battery in every car in the world today.  Forget that the USA and China have enough to power every cat in each country.  Then you get to Congo which had deposits but none are counted as exploitable and they have not even been seriously explored.  Nobody is going to look further than South American, Australian USA and China.  There is no point and there is plenty readily proven and easy to extract.  

[Southside]

What? 
Congo mining

[SwampDonkey]

I may have mispoken, calling it lithium reserves, it's cobalt reserves. Congo not exploitable? Oh you mean pure lithium of course. No mention that cobalt is needed for the battery as well. : Up to 20% of the lithium battery makeup requires cobalt, it's not just lithium in the battery and that is mostly in Congo.  Of which South American might have 2%. Canada is in the top 6 on the list, the US isn't. Cuba has 7% and Canada is mining that in Moa. Cobalt gives the battery a longer duration, kinda important I think. Australia has a bunch of cobalt as well, probably the #2 producer.

Iron hasn't solved the riddle yet. Vacuum tubes work to, but something a heck of a lot better was found. :D

I've noticed the last two years, you can't buy a 12 pack of lithium batteries for $24 now. You can buy 4 for $24. Now translate that to car battery cost. :D
For Tesla's longer range battery, 4416 cells make up the battery pack in a Tesla Model 3. The cells have 3.7 v. AAA lithium battery has 1.5v. I bet you're looking at close to $30,000 by now.

[charles mann]

The up side to an EV for those guys/gals, is the fuel bill from the constant idling and burning of gas/diesel fuel esp to keep cool and to keep the plethora of electronics charged.
The down side is the same as mentioned above, draining the EV battery. I have never seen, nor do i expect to see in the near future, charging stations installed at each acft or at a minimum, a central location (fire base, smoke jumper base) or let alone a remote location like a farmer's field or the middle of nowhere in a clearing on some state or federal forestry land, at least none being installed without the use of petrol gennies to supply the power for those mobile charging stations.

The EV thing has its pros and cons, but for emergency services, with the current infrastructure, esp in remote location (usually where wildfires happens), the ev is a recipe for disaster. EV for city dwelling emergency services, there should be more pros than cons and possible savings overall for tax dollars.

 My big question is why push so hard for a full EV vehicle right now when something like a hybrid would seen to fill the role without ALL the drawbacks?

 A hybrid could give you your improved fuel mileage. You don't have the constant worry about range and charging stations, in low and slow speed your on batt, higher speed or more power needed the regular engine kicks in, when batt is low the engine can charge it enroute.  

 Yes there will be maintenance and reliability testing/issues, and no I wouldn't want it in a truly cold/arctic climate, but it seems like the round peg for the round hole in some instances.

 Still plenty of other drawbacks, but the hybrid would be an easier "sell" to me vs the full EV for this application.

tell that to the powers to be. You and i know, but you cant tell that to those with a different agenda. 

[nativewolf]

I may have mispoken, calling it lithium reserves, it's cobalt reserves. Congo not exploitable? Oh you mean pure lithium of course. No mention that cobalt is needed for the battery as well. : Up to 20% of the lithium battery makeup requires cobalt, it's not just lithium in the battery and that is mostly in Congo.  Of which South American might have 2%. Canada is in the top 6 on the list, the US isn't. Cuba has 7% and Canada is mining that in Moa. Cobalt gives the battery a longer duration, kinda important I think. Australia has a bunch of cobalt as well, probably the #2 producer.

Iron hasn't solved the riddle yet. Vacuum tubes work to, but something a heck of a lot better was found. :D

I've noticed the last two years, you can't buy a 12 pack of lithium batteries for $24 now. You can buy 4 for $24. Now translate that to car battery cost. :D
For Tesla's longer range battery, 4416 cells make up the battery pack in a Tesla Model 3. The cells have 3.7 v. AAA lithium battery has 1.5v. I bet you're looking at close to $30,000 by now.

Yes mispeaking ...it happens doesn't it.  Cobalt is an issue, lots of that and manganese and nickel in modern life.  The LiFePo4 batteries get away from all the cobalt and that is about 1/2 of teslas fleet now.  The price per kwh for tesla is down to less than $100.  So the average tesla model 3 has a battery pack that costs tesla a bit over $5000.  
Speaking of mispeaking it's less than 3000 cells for a model 3.  It's 31 cells per brick and 96 bricks.  Of course this can go up or down depending on range purchased but that is the normal size.  Or if it is a Model 3 made in China and sold in the EU or China or Australia it has LiFePo4 blades made by BYD so no "cells" at all and no cobalt.  In a few years EVs will be cobalt free and it will just be the computers and smartphones and high end metal alloys using cobalt.  Nickl will be around in batteries a lot longer.  
Iron is proven, riddle is long past solved.  It's just wrapping the product now.  Cycle life is, for all intents and purpose 100 years and no degradation.  
I think the USFS folks will enjoy the Lightning- it's not going to replace the trucks out west for maybe a decade and it's not going to replace a vehicle that has to tow regularly anywhere.  I find it very interesting that they are trying them out in 3 very cold national forests so they are going to push them.  I'll be curious as to how they do.  I've also not taken it on really rough roads but in wet swampy fields it did just fine.  
The power is amazingly smooth, you set a speed on cruise control and it sticks there perfectly and never varies.  Braking power is all regenerated into electricity- I bet we've hardly ever actually used the brakes- once in a day maybe; mostly it is all the motor.   The frunk is neat.  Mostly I think the f150 is a really nice work truck for light vehicle use, probably works for 80% of people but maybe only 20% of FF users.  I've committed to not towing anything, more stuff to deal with and I'm trying to eliminate stuff to deal with.  I have now eliminated oil changes and brake changes, radiators, fueling up at the gas station, etc.  The truck adds over 30kwh overnight and that is enough for my normal daily drives.  My only trip to the gas station is to buy off road diesel fuel for the Ponsses.  

[Clark]

What happens when the next vehicle needs a 50 amp supply? Get another home equity loan for the electrical upgrade? 

Considering how much it costs to charge the vehicle ($5, rounding way up) compared to filling a gas tank, the electrical work pays for itself pretty quick.

I'm very curious how the trucks deal with rough roads because they do a number on front ends on large gas trucks. 

I've always found the greatest predictor of vehicle issues to be the person driving it, not where it is driven or entirely the brand. 

Clark

[Ianab]

Interesting reading up on the new domestic smart chargers. They are smart enough to measure the house's total power draw, and switch back to ""trickle" if it goes over a pre-set limit.  So if your house supply has only a 100 Amp limit, and the charger wants 50, it will monitor the rest of the house draw to make sure it has enough spare headroom. 

So if you get home, plug in the car, put dinner in the oven, throw your laundry in the drier and take a shower etc, and are now using 60 amps, the charger cuts back until the total load returns to a safe limit, after an hour or 2. Once your power draw has dropped to something sensible, it switches back to the fast charge for the rest of the night.  

So yes there is an issue with a limited domestic supplies. But it's a problem that's already been solved.  Sure it costs to get the dedicated charger wired in, but assuming it's going to be used for the next 10 years it's soon going to pay off. 

There is also the option of using a standard domestic supply to charge, just it's slower. It might be enough if your regular commute is shorter and you only use ~25% of the battery each day? No special supply needed, just a regular 115V / 15 A or 230V / 10A that we use. 

Figures from here in NZ suggest that 82% of electric vehicle charging is done at home, not public chargers. There would also be a % of work vehicles being charged at a work depot, so the % of  public charging use is probably less than 10%? That's potentially a problem because if public chargers aren't being used much, there is little incentive to expand the public network. 

[stavebuyer]

Supply and demand control price. The number of EV components currently in use is nominal. The current electric supply chain is basically being regulated into a forced changeover to renewables which is already causing dramatic rate increases.

Oil pricing has been subject to wild swings when any hint of supply interruption occurs. We have a "strategic petroleum reserve" supposedly as "plan B" to tide us through in oil emergencies. What's plan B for the new grid? You know all the climate change like the "atmospheric river" currently flooding the west coast. Sunny Southern California goes all in on solar which works great until the "unprecedented" 10 days with no sun. The coal changed to Natural gas plants will all already be shuttered. As previously mentioned, the price of "AA" lithium batteries has tripled in less than a year and most EV's are still a decade away. That $5k battery and $5 overnight charge circa 2022 might be 10 times that by 2032 when Tesla, GM, Ford, the PRC, and South Korea are all fighting over the limited supplies of lithium and copper.

Almost a 2 year wait to get something as simple as a sawmill. Look at the supply disruption that occurred during COVID when people changed their buying habits due to travel restrictions. Even today just the change in loan interest rates has seriously altered the demand for both houses and vehicles. My small town has 2 sources of income; Bourbon and small auto parts manufacturers that supply various parts to the main Toyota assembly plant an hour to the north. If competition for EV materials pushes vehicle prices to 100K what then? We have seen what $150 oil does. Probably a good time to own copper and lithium stock.

This is going to be painful to experience and there really is no escaping the self-inflicted disaster about to unfurl.Humans are not nearly as clever as we imagine ourselves to be.

[SwampDonkey]

Speaking of mispeaking it's less than 3000 cells for a model 3.  It's 31 cells per brick and 96 bricks.  Of course this can go up or down depending on range purchased but that is the normal size.  

Just as I told you their longer range Model 3 has 4416 cells. Those are precisely the number of cells in those. Their model S has 7920. :D They have a similar range battery with Panasonic's NCA  in the lower end Tesla Model 3's with 2170 they introduced in 2018. This was for weight and cost reduction.

Read up
https://electricvehiclesfaqs.com/how-many-batteries-are-in-a-tesla-electric-car
Panasonic boosts energy density, trims cobalt in new 2170 battery cell for Tesla ? TechCrunch
An absolute no to the iron imagination, ain't part of reality. They require regular water top up maintenance and electrolyte refresh every 7-10 years. For Off-grid solar and energy preparedness. Life cycle up to 30 years. Which if you account for all the maintenance involved it's not entirely accurate. Adding stuff to keep it alive is hardly a closed system.  :D  [Iron Edison's battery comparison table]. I seem to remember that, so claimed, closed system cold fusion experiment that had everyone's attention a few years back until science prevailed. It does not replace lithium, not yet, likely never will.  Now think of a vast grid and trying to use those things, ain't happening. Might be a decent boat anchor, they claim they are tough. At an off grid camp in northern Ontario with a solar array? Probably. ;D
Although LiFePo4 is an improvement over Li ion, especially safety, but it does not hold charge under load for days, which is greatly needed. Being able to have more charging cycles does not improve range much. Panasonic's Panasonic's NCA (nickel-cobalt-aluminium) is way more energy dense, and that allowed Tesla to reduce the number of cells in their Model 3's to reduce cost and weight (made note of earlier). Range is not increased because if you take away more energy dense cells to reduce weight, you're loosing range, but net result is a comparable range as their older 2976 cell battery. So that was the trade off.

Just label me a skeptic with some reasoning to poke at the pitfalls and shortcomings. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

I’ve always found the greatest predictor of vehicle issues to be the person driving it, not where it is driven or entirely the brand.

Clark

To a large degree yes, if you look at it by saying 4 different brands were driven by 4 different people with different driving skills, habits and care. When you look at it from the perspective of someone driving all 4 brands with the same driving skills, habits and care, you get different results from the experiment. :D