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Another Frozen log / Blade qustion

Started by Mt406, January 17, 2018, 11:02:08 AM

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Mt406

I am in the middle of it now. A order 7500 bf of 3x12 and 3x10 that I told them not to wait till middle of winter to start Just started.
I am using Kasco 4s and still getting more waves than I like and also some push off starting in.
Its bridge decking so it doesn't have to be perfect but still nice.
I read though the older threads last night til my eyes were blurry.
I seam to be fowling  most of the suggestions there.
Up my blade tension, sharp blades.
I will check the drive  belt today.
I will be out of blades today so its time to sharpen.
I have a Moons sharpener its fast but not the most accurate.
The frozen log threads talk of different blade set some wider some narrower .
The guys that are cutting frozen wood what seams to be working.
I am sawing DF It has been down for over a year It came off a fire so the bark is charred dissent look like any wood damage.
my mill is  a WM HD 35  25 Hp.
I plan to sharpen to a 4-5 degree  set not Sure.

Thanks for any in put

Scott     

moodnacreek

A ll my experience is with a circle mill so I don't have the answer. What I have learned is that the frozen sap wood [or logs that where saturated when they froze] is the problem. The frost is thawed by the blade and re freezes immediately in the kerf mostly on the log side and guides the blade to the board side but as you get in deeper the wood is dryer and may saw ok. Any grit on a frozen log is very bad compared to warm weather. A protrusion or notch on the tooth may 'raker' the frozen saw dust out and I am sure you have read about this. Winter sawing seperates the men from the boys.

Kbeitz

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

moodnacreek


Cutting Edge

Mt406,

Check that your blade guides are aligned to your rails and are applying correct down pressure .  With frozen logs, even the slightest (1/32") up/down tilt of the guides makes a difference. 

A good quality machinist protractor also, to verify you are sharpening at the desired 4 deg. hook angle.  Don't ignore the 30 deg back angle either. Definitely don't want to reduce this angle during your sharpening process.

You may want to invest in a clamp on set gauge.  Having the proper amount of set and equal side to side is going to be a must. 

Frozen logs typically require less set, especially with smaller hp. You may just try a light grind and not setting the teeth this first go around... .003" less than what you have now (new blades) should show at least some improvement.  Be mindful and watch your blade tension.  Go to far on reducing your set and you'll have issues with the blade heating up/loss of tension.

moodnacreek is right on point. The same issues that can plague a circle mill, apply to narrow band blades as well.  Winter sawing can be very frustrating. 

Hope this helps ya out.  Keep warm !

"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
- Sharpening Services
- Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
- On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair Services

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades
Ph- (304) 878-3343

terrifictimbersllc

Keeping wide cuts flat requires more sharpness than narrower cuts.

Sometimes I'll saw logs for a better part of the day into full width  natural edge slabs with a lot of 20-26" wide cuts,  and because of more frequent blade changing, end up with a stack of bands that won't cut it for more of the same but would be fine for 12-15" diameter logs. 

Doesnt take much dirt to take off the edge.  I can verify that these bands are dulled a bit compared to fresh ones by looking at them with a hand lens. 

I like to take a straightedge like my LogRite scaling stick, to the end of the wide cant and see if the cut is still flat if I have any questions.  I can just wipe off the sawdust with it and see right off that there is a bit of crown developing if it doesnt wipe off clean.

DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

4x4American

When I cut frozen doug fir last winter I found 4 degree hook with .012" set worked perfect for my 36hp yanmar diesel. Right now I'm cutting alot of frozen hard maple and beech and having excellent results with WM Vortex 1-1/2" .055" cut to a 7 degree hook and .020" set with a 55hp turbo diesel pulling it. 


The most important part to not get waves is to make sure that the blade body curvature is proper (flat or slight dish on the inside where the blade touches the guide roller).  Cook's makes a blade roller that is indispensible to me.
Boy, back in my day..

barbender

Another blade roller believer, if I sawed more I'd have to investigate this further. Mt406, yes check your drive belt, but don't discount how quickly those charred logs can take the edge off your blade, either.
Too many irons in the fire

terrifictimbersllc

The Cooks roller, does it also roll the set to zero?   Haven't seen how it's designed.

And if so, when you set the teeth do you take them to the desired set in just one setting?
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Quebecnewf

Are you getting waves right from the start with a fresh blade?

If this is the case try cleaning a log or one that is only frozen not charred.

I am thinking that the frozen charring on the logs might be your issue and you are dulling your blades as soon as you make the first cut .

Experiment and see what you find out .

Quebecnewf

Mt406

Thanks for the info.
Had company show yesterday afternoon, so no sharpening  last night.
Over slept this morning.
Now off on log buying field trip. paying 90/ton for 18-20in tip.
Same ranch that's getting the bridge decking called yesterday wanting 250 2x12x16 for head gates
For the head gates they didn't care what  wood was used they oked spruce
Looks like a whole winter of frozen wood.
Plans are to sharpen tonight. I will do 5 with more set and 5 with less at 4 degree.
Will keep up to date on how it works.

Thanks

Scott

4x4American

Try some at .012", .015", .018" and .021".   Idk how frozen they are but I did alot of messing around to find .012" and 4 degree worked best in east coast grown doug fir (overgrown christmas trees).  I also had way more horsepower and a sharpener that I know for a fact was at 4 degree hook.  Good luck keep us posted
Boy, back in my day..

moodnacreek

Mt 406, You know the best states only have one area code !  Hope you get it worked out.

JB Griffin

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on January 18, 2018, 07:19:19 AM
The Cooks roller, does it also roll the set to zero?   Haven't seen how it's designed.

And if so, when you set the teeth do you take them to the desired set in just one setting?


No, it only corrects blade curvature. Not to say one could not modify it to do it.
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota with 6gpm hyd unit, 150 Prentice, WM bms250, Suffolk dual tooth setter

Over 3.5million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator.

Mt406

Only one area code is nice.
You just diel the seven digit number.
I live in the biggest county at 5600 sq miles.
9300 people and 150,000 cows
There places here that it will take you two days to walk out to a paved rd.
:)

Mt406

4x4 I will try different sets and will keep up to date on how it works.
The DF in my area is not so good lots of sweep and lots of taper 14-16 butt with 7-8 tip in 33 ft.
We are high desert 8-12 inch moisture a year the elevation at my mill is 5800 ft.
When you get on the west side of the divide trees are better but not like the coastal fir.

Scott 

Mt406

Up date
Finished my pine jobs, back to DF late this after noon.
I was tryin wider sets to see how they would work.
First off was a kasco 4 degree sharpened to a 4 blade set at 25
I cut well but didn't get to run to long hit the end of the cant knocked the blade off. and it junk now.
cut 190 bd ft plus side wood. still had some wave near knots 1/32 to 1/16 I can live with that.
Next blade I tried was a set at 28 also a kasco 4 I resharpend.
It cut well had to go slower you could feel it pull down.
I you didn't load the blade it would vibrate give you a wash board effect.
Didn't cut to long got dark tomorrow will tell how many bd ft.
Took some pic to share.


  

  

  

Mt406

Still experimenting on set .025 seems to work best so far.
The saw dust left in kerf was not frozen to the cant some slight wave but small near knots 1/32-1/16
.021 and .018  I saw what looks like steam coming out of kerf saw dust was fine and refroze to cant had to scrape off with sheet rock knife.
I don't have a way of desetting a blade to try narrower sets like .012- .016 range.
I will have to see what some of my blades end after sharpening with out setting and go from there.
I see there were some simple desetters that some have made on the forum may have to try that.
Stay tuned I will up date on what happens.

Thanks again

4x4American

What kind of setting equipment do you have?  If you have a way to push the teeth out, then you have a way to push the teeth in.
Boy, back in my day..

Mt406

I have a Moons Sharpener setter combo its a beast.
It will set a blade in 60 seconds and sharpen in about 2 mins.
I am trying to figger out how to post a video.
Now you have me thinking how to get mine timing off and back off the setting pins.

4x4American

Ohh yea theres a saw filer down the rd from me has one of them...he sets with a cooks single tooth though.  I can downset with either my single tooth or dual tooth setter but prefer the dual tootb for down setting.  However you can only do one side at a time
Boy, back in my day..

Mt406

There so fast I think they lose accuracy.
I am getting one of the old WM drag type sharpeners going.
I got 2 old retired WM with the Moons and 50 blades from a estate sale  year ago.
Tryin to get more accuracy in my sharping.
Hoping in the next year to get a new sharping set up. 

Mt406

.015 seams to work best I will try a little narrower on the next sharping and see what happens.
Want to thanks to Cutting Edge for talking with me on the phone.
Lots of good information.
And thanks everyone for your input.  :)

Scott

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