tree pulling rope

[421Altered]

I'm needing some advice on what type and size of rope to get to pull the ocasional tree with my skid steer.  I'm talking about dead pine trees that I can't cut down because they will fall on structures.   So, I want to get a rope that will be strong enough to pull with my skid steer and maybe the dead pine will come down without hitting barns, etc.  My skid steer has a 8500# tractive effort, so, I think I'll need a rope at least that strong.  Also some advice on how to get rope into the tree and tie it to the skid steer would be helpful as well.

[Andries]

What you're thinking of doing is not a good idea.
The angles, weights and strength of the pine is not going let you do it.
.
Attaching a small throw weight to a light line and pitching it up 50' and around the tree is a real skill.
Then you'd want a pull angle of 25 to 35°, which will take a very long rope.
Arborist rigging lines are rated for 7000 to 10,000 pounds of pull, for all braided attachments, no knots.
A knot will reduce rope strength to 50% of the rated strength.
When a skid steer goes to make a high angle pull, the centre of gravity shifts forward in the machine. Traction disappears when the machine is standing on its nose or tail.
There's a lot to be said against what you're wanting to do.
Accuracy of the drop is the big deciding point - how much are the buildings in the drop zone worth?
When you see tree service crews pulling on a rope in a tree, it's usually to 'lift' it away from a bad lean or just to make sure the direction of the fall is safe.
A tree service with a bucket truck will be the lowest cost answer.
An arborist that'll climb the tree and take it apart, lowering each piece with ropes is higher in cost, but effective.
Got a neighbour with an excavator? A directional dig at the stump and a high placed push will do the trick too.
.
Maybe not what you wanted to hear, Mr. 421altered, but it is what it is.

[Clark]

I agree with Andries and will say, if you can't become proficient with a throw line then this idea of pulling over trees is not for you. 

Since I suspect you will want to go ahead and do this project, I can give you some pointers. If you're willing to respect a rope as a tool then go for a quality braided line in the 5/8-3/4" diameter size. 200' is good for this work. If you're more likely to treat the rope like a tool that can be forgotten, run over, and occasionally used to soak up spills, well, don't do any of this work. But a 3-strand line will be more resilient to abuse.

Learn to tie a bowline and a bowline on a bight. Learn proper knots and their application.

If you invest in a quality block and means of attaching it to the base of a tree (dead-eye sling), you can get away from the vectors pulling your machine off the ground. And have a much more versatile system.

[lxskllr]

It's really situation dependent. It can range from 'no problem' to 'real problem'. If the lowest limbs are out of hand throwline range, you need something to shoot it up there. How decayed are they? How much are they leaning? Baseline cost is about $300, and goes up from there.

[YellowHammer]

Andries pretty much sums it up.  

However, however here's a short video of me doing it last summer.  These were tall and narrow oaks.  There is some skill and danger involved.  Fortunately, I don't have any skill and preferred the danger over crushing my building.  Andries is rolling his eyes right now, I can hear it from here.  

I used a bore cut to keep the stump from barber chairing into my building even on the small trees.  I use a 3/4" true arborist bull rope and bowline knots. 

I used a Forrester throw line, with bean bag and line coiled into a bucket. It will get way up there.  

It's not a fast technique, and I didn't make a cut with the chainsaw until I confirmed I could lean the tree back the way I wanted.  Certainly, I would never do an uncontrolled pull and snap the tree off, although I could have on some.  The hinge on the cut helped steer the fall.  

https://youtube.com/shorts/o4LCJcyWcqc

 
 

[Andries]

. . .   Andries is rolling his eyes right now, I can hear it from here. . . . 

All the way from 'Toba to 'Bama?! 
Very noisy eyeballs, us Canadians, eh?
😁😁 
We dropped many trees as you described YH, it works well.
.
However, the op is saying that he intends to pull the trees down - no saws involved.
It's just one detail, but a massive one.

[lxskllr]

I assumed he'd be cutting them up the normal way, and pulling against the lean. Maybe I'm assuming too much.

[Clark]

...However, the op is saying that he intends to pull the trees down - no saws involved.
It's just one detail, but a massive one.

I missed that one! Trying to pull a tree down is asking for trouble.

Clark

[YellowHammer]

It didn't even enter my mind to do it without a chainsaw assist to control the break.

Snapping dead trees off like Godzilla slapping skyscrapers isn't a good thing to do, but would make some entertaining YouTube videos.  

[peakbagger]

I will not comment on the proposed use but will comment on the tools. Dynema (ultra high molecular weight nylon) rope is sold by several suppliers, its stronger than steel cable on diameter basis and is used as a replacement for steel on winches. Several companies sell it, Amsteel is one. Hamilton Marine a supplier for boats and commercial fishing is the best place for generic "dynema" (Dynema is trademark) rope. They sell odd lengths on occasion. I have a 1/2" diameter 100 footer that is rated at least 30,000 pounds. Its braided and folks who know how to do it can braid in loops (but I do not know how). It does not take knots well but bowline knots can work. I do a lot of timber hitches. UV does degrade it eventually, so its not something to be used for permanent guy lines in the sun. 

The other device is a Big Shot slingshot for launching throw lines way up in the crown of a tree. It works great during the winter and early spring when the leaves are off the trees, less good when they are leafed out as the throw line can and does get caught on its way down. If you buy one, get the spring release as without it, its more of challenge to use it solo. Get a weighted throw bag to go with it. I pull the "dynema" line back up over the branch with the throw line and then make a loop on one end and put the other and through the loop and pull the loose end which now means I have a rope cinched around a high point on the tree. It takes practice to get good at it. The rope is pretty slippery so it doesnt get caught in the bark like most ropes that can get snagged.

Depending on tree size I slightly pretension in the directlon I want it to fall with a power pull. If the anchor point is too close and might be hit with the falling tree I mount a snatch block at the anchor point and then pull the rope from a safer location with the power pull. I then notch the tree and go crank on the power pull to put tension in the line. Ideally I want the tree pulled enough to lean it towards the anchor point. I then carefully start a backcut and then go crank on the power pull again. If I do it right I have a very controlled fall. 

I also am aware of my limitations, I just paid $1,500 bucks for someone with far more skills, experience and equipment to drop a 4' foot diameter, 115' high pine leaning towards utility lines. They climbed it, dropped 40' of the crown and then dropped it 90 degrees perpendicular to a 6 degree lean. They did have a guide rope tied to the top of the tree with two guys on the end but once they cut the backcut, that guide rope just got it going. 

[421Altered]

Thank you for all the replies.  Let me clear something up, I wasn't clear on all the details that I would use to do this job.  I fully intend to use my chainsaws to notch and back cut these trees after I put a slight pull on the rope.  I'm not a newbie to cutting trees, I have several Stihl's, the largest is a 500I that usually wears a 28" lite bar, and I use my 36" bar in pine or oak when the need arises.  That said, I am by no means a professional, but, I've been cutting trees on my farm for over 40 years.  I have when the tree called for it, felled large trees that have a large back lean, sometimes using wedges, but usually use a bottle jack, easier you know.   And I love to bore cut the big trees. I find that I can usually fell the tree close to where I want it to hit the ground better with a bore cut than without.  However, I have no experience with ropes, that's why I asked the questions.  I really appreciate all the answers because I know there are a lot of good people on here that have WAY more experience than I do, and handling problem trees is NOT the place to be learning on your own!

[lxskllr]

How high to get to some branches for a tie in?

[beenthere]

Have pulled many a tree (oak, white pine) over using a Pontiac station wagon and a hay-mow rope from the barn. Only pulled them with a rope if they had a back lean to the direction we were falling them. Works if the rope doesn't break and the pull can be maintained. Never had either part of the equation fail. Just fortunate, maybe. Key is to not let the tree sit back down on the saw cut (IMO). Hay-mow rope prolly 1" diam used to lift loose hay and bales off a wagon up to the hay mow track. Prolly a thousand pounds of hay.

[chet]

I will not comment other than to say I have used a rope to direct, or lift and direct the fall of literally thousands of trees without a problem. That said, I have also been called on way too many times to correct or salvage situations that went terribly wrong, in one case fatally wrong.  :(

[Southside]

Just a few years ago a local guy hooked a rope to his Kubota and the other end to a pine tree he was pulling over.  It pulled it over, right onto the tractor, and that's where his son found him.  

[petefrom bearswamp]

Tall tree, rope too short, a quick way to the great beyond.
Happens in my area every few years.
I have pulled many trees to where I wanted them to fall with my 150 foot cable Farmii winch and sometimes a snatch block.
I also have a 1" 100 ft poly rope my BIL liberated from the utility co. he worked for.
I use it once in a while.

[YellowHammer]

Yes, it's important to estimate the hight of the tree and the length of the rope before hand.  It's sad to hear these tragedies, so simply averted by just a little up front thinking.  

[421Altered]

Thanks to everyone that have replied to my post.  I will take extra precautions when I get ready to drop these dead pines that are leaning towards my barn, and they will sometime in the future drop large limbs and tear up the roof and rafter's if I don't get the dead tree down first.  I know that dead trees are maybe the most dangerous to cut down for many reasons. And those are the ones I cut most often.  Just the way it is on my farm.  Always have pine trees killed by lightening, and pine beetles, and the occasional wind storm. There are more ways to get killed, injured by a dead tree than one can think of.  So, I know the risks and have taken precautions for many years.   There was a local man a couple years ago got killed on the spot by a dead tree that he tried to push over with his enclosed cab large farm tractor with a bucket on the front, top broke out, and they found him crushed/ impaled in his cab when he didn't come home for supper.  Even though I have a skid steer with a cab and the required rops, I don't try to push down dead trees.  Or for that matter, I don't try to push down living trees either.  It's not a bull dozier! 

[slider]

Last year we were on a 100 ft big dead pine ,i got lazy and did not have the service to the house taken down ,thinking just get the top down and we have room.I boomed up 70 ft put the rope in ,came down 20 ft and did a thick over and under cut because it was so dead. Moved the truck and tied to the skid steer.The slack barely came out before it came down.I was under that large top for 10 min but never again.I have been doing this tree work for 13 years and except for a couple of chainsaw nicks and one or two close calls i have been lucky.That on taught me not to get lazy.

We use good long ropes and a 70 horse heavy skid steer . You don,t have to pull that hard but the heavy machine sometimes makes a big difference .We use a
 3/4 three strand nylon rope most of the time but i have 2 7/8 200 ft samson ropes that you can,t break.

[421Altered]

Slider,
  Thanks for the info on they type of rope you use.  My skid steer is about like yours, 76 hp and about 10,000 pounds.  Glad you got out from under it before it came down.  My experience with dead pines is that usually, the top smaller limbs will fall off from gravity first, then the top of the trunk will fall out, then sections of the trunk will fall down, then seems like maybe never the trunk nearest the ground will fall.  So, that means that the tops of the trees are the most unpredictable.  Do you find that the case in your experience?

[Southside]

Just remember on your skid steer that a ROPS is not the same as a FOPS (Falling Object Protection System) that is found on purpose built woods equipment.  I have had dead pine tops break out and hit my 40,000+ lb fellerbuncher and rock it like a Tonka Toy lifting wheels into the air in the process.  Don't mess with gravity. 

[slider]

421 altered you are correct that is about how they fall apart .

[421Altered]

Southside, you are absolutely correct, and i do understand that, thanks for reminding me! Never hurts to be reminded!  Thanks Slider for the info!

[gspren]

I always used steel cable because I had a lot that I got cheap at a auction, so no knots. I usually used a snatch block so I wasn't pulling toward myself and also so the tractor would be headed downhill, pulls much better.

[Andries]

@421Altered apologies from me for taking the position that you really did want to pull the DanG tree down without involving a csaw. 
I took your original post way too literally.
Sorry, there's a wide wide range of skill levels here on the FF and you're obviously more skilled than the average bear.
. . . back to ropes and trees 
There's a guy out North of Kenora that uses a 1" Samson braid nylon line, 250' long. He throwlines it up to the highest solid point and loads the stretch with his big tractor. He says that nylon will rubber-band about 20% before it reaches max. load point. Working alone, that leaves him free to use his chainsaw and watch all that tension pull the tree down as he does a bore cut. Added benefit: he rattles the tree with rope and tractor to drop hidden widow makers.
My son's arborist outfit likes New England rope. Almost no line stretch at all and crazy strength. $$ A 250' line attached to a small loader will lift a tree into the opening cut as the machine backs away. Works well for a two-or-more manned crew and in-helmet comms, to finesse the cut to pull equation. Tight quarters work for the big bucks and close calls.
Hope your tree drops go as planned.

[421Altered]

Andries, no apologies necessary my friend!  As I said, I wasn't clear enough on the details on my original post.  So, naturally everyone was rightfully concerned for my safety!  I should have included more details in my original post.  Thanks for all the details that you included about the guy North of Kenora that uses the 1" Samson  line to put a lot of tension on the tree before he starts cutting.  Also the detail of how he shakes the tree with the rope to get out hidden widow makers.  Just a small detail like that can have a huge difference in the outcome.  I have been using a chainsaw for around 40 years on my farm, mostly cutting problem or dead trees.  Till I discovered this website, I was self taught!  Not a good thing, but, I'm still alive with all legs and hands, .  However, I have learned an awful lot on this site by a lot of good people that know a lot more than I do.  I wish I could work with some of you guys to learn how to manage trees with a rope!  Lol, but, not many people want a 72 year old beginner on the job site!!

[lxskllr]

Dunno about pretensioning the tree. That's asking for a barberchair if you do it wrong. I still haven't heard how the line's getting set. If it's out of throwing range, that adds a bunch of expense for tools to get a line up there. That's another $150+ on top of my $300 baseline price.

Pulling trees isn't magic, but you need to determine value. A rope's always useful, but a bunch of gear for setting lines sitting around unused is a waste of money. If it's only a few trees, it might be better to just have a crew come out and get it done. If it's an ongoing project, then...?

I said before, particulars matter. How big, how wide, how much lean, how much decay? All these things drastically change the materials and technique used. Every tree is different, and every setup will be different, sometimes by a lot.

[Ljohnsaw]

Interesting thread. I was asked by a neighbor if I would take these out. First one has about 180° of hitting the cabin, the power feed and the main power line. The other directions are into a thick cluster of tall trees. And all those dead limbs would make a bunch of shrapnel. The other tree could hit the cabin but the only clear path is to drop it on the well used road.


That's a little out building, not the main cabin off to the left.

 
I took a pass on it!

[421Altered]

lxskllr, If one owns more than one chainsaw that they only use rarely, that's a lot of unused money too.  I don't use my big chainsaws everyday, but, got to have them for the rare big tree.  So having more seldom used equipment is just part of it.  Several years ago, I had 4 problem trees near structures that needed cutting, I called 4 different tree service companies, had to leave a message with 3, they never called back, one requested my email address, never got in touch with me either.  So what are you supposed to do?  Over time, I removed 3 of them myself.  And the last one is the one that I will need a rope for.  That's why I asked about ropes.  I can't give you a specific height that the rope will need to be placed in any tree that I may need to cut with a rope for assistance.  All different heights.  I have on occasion used a large hex nut and a string to pull chains up into trees.  And I have all day, and the next, and the next, to get a rope into a tree, I'm retired!

[421Altered]

Ijohnsaw,  I wouldn't even consider taking that tree down near valuable  structures!  My barns are just for our sitting pleasure sitting in the shade looking out over our pond.  I'm with you on letting someone else do that one!

[lxskllr]

For a start, I'd get 150'-200' ½" Treemaster(3strand, 7k# tensile) with an eye spliced in the end. That rope is kind of hard to splice unless you have the experience/tools, so it's better to pay someone else to do it. Use a shackle in the splice to create a slipknot to girth around the tree. Fabricate some kind of bollard to hook to your tractor to wrap the free end around, and hitch it off to a couple cleats. If you put a knot in Treemaster, it's very hard to get out after loading. and a bollard will help preserve strength. The above setup is pretty cheap and will do a lot of work. Treemaster is about as close as you'll get to wire rope for durability, so it's good for beating up on a farm.

You'll want at least two 150' lengths of throwline, and at least two weights. I've had as many as three lines stuck in a tree, and rescued them with the fourth. Don't cheap out. Life's too short for cheap throwline. I like Dynaglide, and Zing-It is also popular, though not a favorite of mine.

Practice throwing. If you can't get it high enough, you'll need a launcher. A BigShot is basically a big slingshot that fits on to polesaw poles and shoots the bag into the tree; about $150. Or you can buy/build an air powered launcher. I bought one a couple years ago for $180. They're now $200-$300. Building is probably $120 not including any special tools needed.

The rope can be upgraded as necessary. StableBraid is a nice static line, but more expensive, and more delicate than Treemaster. You could also go bigger on the Treemaster. Depends on exactly what you're doing. You also might want some good pulley's for mechanical advantage/redirections. CMI is a good value, and their outlet store has some good deals. The defects are cosmetic, and don't affect functionality...

https://cmigearusa.com/collections/clearance

You might want some steel carabiners, or more shackles to make connections. Depends on the setup. The whole system is only as strong as the weakest link, so keep that in mind.

[421Altered]

lxskllr,  Thank you very much for all that great info!  That is exactly the kind of info that I need.  I can't thank you enough!

[Al_Smith]

In my collection of stuff I have two 600 foot reels of 1" three strand nylon .It was from an electrical contractor going out of business I used to work for and used to pull armored cable .It was last fall I used it to tip a 100 foot cottonwood with an old Oliver bulldozer .I ran the dozer 200 feet away and off sideways using a redirect so I didn't get impaled by a flying limb .It really was just insurance ,the fall was caused by an 084 Stihl .Needless to say that big tree really made a big thump .

[Al_Smith]

I might also add that three strand nylon has an elongation rate of 70 percent ,acts like a big rubber band .However some tree services prefer lines with very little ability to elongate .What ever floats your boat .The largest three strand I've ever worked with was 2" and those used for mooring lines on the submarine ,300 feet long .I made the eye splices in all four  of them .Those lines were strong enough to pull a cleat right out of a pier like childs play .A sub might look small but they have the pulling  power of a tug boat .

[slider]

big pine today

[421Altered]

Slider where are you located in South Georgia?

[slider]

421 altered i am near fitzgerald ga. I posted bib pine then lost internet. Not many here are much over 100 ft but this one was 120 with a split top .A 36 in bar would not completely get thru the base.We put a rope in at 75 ft then my guy came down and pretension it to the skid steer .The lean on that stem was near the house. He put his notch in it and pulled just a little to be sure and i moved back just a bit .When he made his back cut it started to come ,and fore some reason i could not move ,no hydraulics at all. My heart stopped.The pretension is what saved our butt. I ordered a new toggle switch for the skid steer .When you think all your ducks are in a row sometimes they are not.

[421Altered]

Slider,  Sorry I didn't see your post earlier, but, been really busy doing other things.  That is a real good informative event that you related.  Glad you had enough rope length that it did not get you.  I believe that I know you, or should I say I know who you are.  I was born and raised in Ocilla, and live between Ocilla and Tifton now.

[slider]

421 altered im close to you if you need to borrow a rope i have several.

[421Altered]

Thank you Slider!  That's a very nice offer!!  I bought a 1/2" rope a while back, 200 feet and have used it to get a widow maker out of a tall pine.  The widow maker was hanging about 60 feet up.  I copied an air gun, I call it a bazooka!! !  It works pretty good, I can actually put the line where I need to, well so far I can, that will change I'm sure!  What I can't figure out, and I'm not good on knots,  my rope is 200 foot long, but, I didn't need 200 feet, so, I basically doubled the rope, and put a double bowline in it on my truck.  What know would be easier when I don't need the entire 200 foot?

[lxskllr]

Cut 6'-8' off your line, and make a prusik loop using double fisherman bends.

Prusik Knot | How to tie a Prusik Knot using Step-by-Step Animations | Animated Knots by Grog

Double Fisherman's Bend | How to tie a Double Fisherman's Bend using Step-by-Step Animations | Animated Knots by Grog

I like to keep the knot over the coils when it's completed, not on the side of the loop as shown above. It's tidier, and stays out of the way. Wrap that around the line, and hook it off to whatever you're pulling with. Back it up with an alpine butterfly as a stopper...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_loop

The prusik may slip before it's fully loaded, and perhaps when heavily loaded. The butterfly will keep it from slipping past it. You could use the butterfly as a loop to pull from, but it can lock up tight, and be almost impossible to remove. Put the rest of the rope in a convenient place on the machine you're pulling with, or let it  drag the ground near the attachment point.