The Warden has let me out.

[Tillaway]

My knee is back to about 80% so it's off to work on Monday.  Gad... I was going batty around here.  I will be out of town and kind of scarce for a while.  I will be working on laying out a Defensible Fuel Profile Zone on the Plumas National Forest.  This is a continuation of a project started last year.  The 12 or 14' of snow has melted off enought to let us get into the lower elevations.  I have been occupying my time reasearching GPS equipment to use for the project.  I have had allot of experience with it so if anyone needs advise about forestry applications for GPS let me know.

[DanG]

Congrats on the quick recovery, Till. I know it didn't seem quick to you, but it coulda been a lot worse.

My knowledge of GPS usage in forestry applications is limited to the fact that you need to know where you are. :  Perhaps, next time you get penned up, you could write us a primer on the subject. :P :P

[Ron Scott]

Till,
Explain what a "Defensible Fuel Profile Zone" is and its purpose. A new term here.

[Kevin]

Till,
What method do you use for starting your GPS?   :D

We ain't going there

All kidding aside, what GPS are you using in the field?
Is this a hand held unit?

[Tillaway]

A DFPZ is a treatment that removes brush and small trees, basically reduces fuel loading to aid in fire suppresion / prevention efforts.  They have strict guidlines as far as where, how big and what sort of silviculture can be used.  They are usually near communities, along highways or on strategic ridges that can help contain widfire.  The National Fire Plan legislation signed by congress pays for the work. In fact it was orginally called the Quincey Library Group Plan and was mandated by congress for the forests of California.  On retrospect they decided it was a good idea everywhere out west so changed the name to the National Fire Plan and started to spend money.  In fact it still maybe the only piece of legislation that congress has voted on with only one decenting vote... that was a congressman from Texas who thought the plan did not go far enough. ;D

Kevin, I am quite enjoying our discussion ;D by the way I usually just hit the on button. :D ;) ;D

I have used Trimble equipment mostly, both thier handhelds and back pack models, currenty we are trying to get a demo unit from CMT.  It is a handheld model but we are going to get the radio beacon receiver with it so I will have a back pack again. :(  We have a little garmin unit that is quite capable but it does not meet contract accuracy specs. nor is it capable of gathering the data that we need in a efficient manner. Basically we can not easily post process Garmin data and put it into a GIS layer.

[Ron Scott]

I figured that it was a new National Fire Plan term. Are you getting in to small roundwood harvesting methods out there? Are markets developing for the small wood?

[Tillaway]

I figured that it was a new National Fire Plan term. Are you getting in to small roundwood harvesting methods out there? Are markets developing for the small wood?

No and No....well let me qualify that.  One community, Hayfork, CA ,only real source of employment cosed up, It was a Sierra Pacific Sawmill.  Basically the mill was the town.  This happened a few years before the NFP took effect.  The folks there formed a group and petioned the FS to allow them to harvest small logs.  I don't know the exact details but they did manage to get access to some.  The Group (name escapes right now) applied for grant money and has / is successful at getting them.  They purchased a small cable yarder,  a Micromill Systems Economizer mill and I believe thay have some post peeling equipment as well.  Anyway, they are still a group and do produce some products but basically the raw material comes from the FS and well you can guess that they are not real reliable source.  So far the most profittable part of the operation is writing and applying for grants, in fact that is the only thing keeping them afloat.

I know a gentleman here that is a sawmill specialist, basically he consults world wide doing mill feasability studies.  Yes, there are parties interested in building small log processing facilities in California, the problem is they won't pencil out.  This is entirely due to state regulation seeing how Oregon, Washington, Idaho, etc.... all have several small log processors so it does work well out here.  Just don't try it in California.  Also, no one is willing to bet any money that the FS will be a stable reliable source of raw material.  The NFP money could dry up any time.

The rule of thumb here is don't purchase any equipment were you have to rely on any government agency to supply raw materials or contracts to make the payments.

A small amount of saw logs come off these DFPZ but the majority of the material is shredded/mulched with brush cutters or is cut, skidded and run through a chipper.  The chips may be just blown into a pile and scattered, generally the hauling costs to the Co-Gen plants is more than the chips are worth, but some contracts require the hauling.

[Ron Scott]

Thanks for the update. The Feds. might have start their own small wood harvesting operations in these areas to complete the NFP requirements for fuels management.

[Gordon]

Dang Tillaway, with the title of the thread I thought you might have been a resident of my work. :D

Glad all is well and hope your feeling better.
Gordon

[L. Wakefield]

   Yes, don't strain the knee with too much walking..
 
   I do indeed have a question on the GPS. I'm interested in the best (but not too pricey) type/brand that will let me get good accuracy IN the woods. A lot of the features I am trying to connect are under the tree canopy, and I DON'T get good readings- to be expected since it's a satsys or whatchmacallit and it can't see the satellites. What's your best performance in that situation?  lw

[Tillaway]

Louise... hey I got that right this time. ;)  Tree canopy is a real bugabo no matter what unit or how much you pay.  The units and software that I use have planning software that allows me to determine the best times or the only times during the day GPS will work for the conditions I am in.  The GPS satellite constellation have full coverage globally 24/7.  The problem is many of those sats are too low on the horizon for the signals to easily penatrate the tree canopy.  I try to only work during the best times during the day.

Garmin makes one unit, the, GPS12XL Map, (or something like that) that is still the best performer for a real cheap GPS that has some advanced mapping capabilities.  There are programs floating around that will post process the data collected from these units.  This is probably the only consumer unit with the capability.  We us this unit with MapTech mapping software and we can draw a harvest unit boundary using the software and upload the harvest unit boundry to the GPS.  The GPS will display our drawing real time and all we have to do is follow our GPS around the unit. ;D

The contracts we work on require GIS/GPS mapping quality receivers.  I have found a realtively inexpensive unit and software with real time capability.  I hope to be demo-ing it within a few weeks.  The price is around $5,000 which is a about par for the handheld units in this category.  The backpack units start at around $8,000 and go up.  The Garmin I mentioned is about $150 bucks, the MapTech software is about the same price..... I think.

[Frank_Pender]

Ron, in my part of Oregon we have a couple three of the small log outfits that by what we call chip and saw.  The will take the tops down to 1 1/2" and up.  The last we sent in on a job was going for $58.00 a ton.

[L. Wakefield]

snip

The problem is many of those sats are too low on the horizon for the signals to easily penatrate the tree canopy.  I try to only work during the best times during the day.

   So d'ya think that it might work better before the leaves are out, in the case of deciduous forest? (Naturally this occurs to me as...the leaves are coming out :(   lw

[bjorn]

L.

I have a fair bit of experience using high end GPS equipment in my previous job.  Yes, you will have better luck using the equipment before the canopy leafs out.  While their are some receivers that may do a better job than others, none of them will perform well in a closed canopy.  The problem is not in the receiver, but in the signal from the sattelites.  The frequency of the signal (and low power) simply will not pass through leaves.  An open canopy (prior to bud break) obviously has fewer obstructions and therefore will allow a greater chance for the signal to reach the receiver.  However, your accuracy is still greatly diminished b/c it is virtually impossible to obtain a signal from all of the sattelites that are available as the trees will block the signal from some of the sattelites.      Cheers.

[swampwhiteoak]

Yes the recievers work better when the trees aren't leafed out yet, or so I was told.  My plot centers usually worked out to be right under a hemlock tree so it never made much difference >:(