Who here has sawmill employees?

[Redhorseshoe]

Admittedly this is more of a rant than anything but I would appreciate some opinions and insight from others as well.  Anyway, I'm not sawing full-time yet, but it's definitely on the horizon.  I spend nearly all of my free time after work and on weekends at the sawmill and can really use a helper to stay caught up with the volume I'm trying to produce.  Today my 3rd employee this year started and lasted an entire (drumroll please). . . 3 hours.  The last one made it 3 1/2 days, the one before that, a few weeks.  The increase in production can't be denied when I have a helper but man, this is driving me nuts.  

For those of you with experience in this situation, have you stuck it out and just dealt with the added difficulty of employees or did you give up and decide to go it alone?   Alternatively, if I did switch to full-time sawing, I'm pretty sure I could keep just myself plenty busy but the timing just isn't right at the moment.

[Magicman]

The small businesses that I am familiar with can't even get anyone to apply for a job.  When they do most don't last but a few days at best.    

[Southside]

Welcome to my world - try adding milking cows to that list.  

[Stephen1]

I keep it an almost 1 man show. Cathy helps me saw 1-2 days a week, I have a 15 YO that comes and helps Saturday morning and Wed afternoon . 4 hrs a week. I am trying me hardest to keep it small, make money and still enjoy myself. I like rolling into work at 10 or 11

[Southside]

FWIW I have re-vamped quite a lot toward mostly being a one man show with some help as I don't think things are going to improve in the help factor.  The problem that presents is that I don't want to answer my phone.  

[WV Sawmiller]

   I saw alone at home when it is my logs and the customer provides the labor when I saw on a mobile job or they bring a log or two here for my "While you wait" special. Usually it is a 60+ y/o customer and if he has help they are as old or older. I did have one customer with young lady helper who did good and my customer had a good one these last 2 days but he did stop to go smoke a joint a couple of times so not somebody I could ever hire. I've tried several times with local teens and no luck. Its a lot easier to get a job flipping burgers or at a convenience store than humping heavy logs and lumber and they can't get help either.

[Magicman]

I failed to add that I am a "one man show" and the customer is responsible for providing the labor.  

My exception was last year when I had my Grandson, Luke regularly helping me.  This was very valuable both to me and to the customer because there were no scheduling problems.  We both showed up and worked.  I lost a very large sawing job this Summer because I could not provide help and apparently another sawyer could.  This was a repeat customer that Luke and I sawed for last year.

Lack of labor has postponed me finishing a sawing job that I started in June and is now scheduled to begin on the 13th.  I am hopeful that I can finally put this one behind me.

I suppose that the only way to have reliable help is to grow your own.  :

[mike_belben]

Pics of the young lady helper please howard. 

;D

[Ianab]

I suppose that the only way to have reliable help is to grow your own

And even then, we tell them to stay in school so they can get a "decent job". 

I can see starting out as general labour in a larger sawmill operation, because there is career path there. You get 40 hours + overtime, and benefits. You get trained with the machinery, get promoted to supervisor / management and can soon start earning decent $$. But if the job is humping wood all day for minimum wage, and that's all it's ever going to be, well it's hard to see the long term incentive. Even flipping burgers has a better career path. 

Locally we have similar problems, when unemployment gets below about 4% it's hard to hire good help. Anyone with any clue / work ethic has a job. Last month the local timber processing business sign said, "WOOD you like to work here? Phone xyz" This month it said "LOG on for a job - www.xyz.co,nz/jobs" And that's at a larger operation with 100+ employees, with promotion oportunities, and they are still struggling to find staff. 

Milking cows? Same deal. You might start out on wages, but folks want to work up from there to farm manager / sharemilker etc. A heck of lot of farm workers here are immigrants from the Philippines, where a NZ wage is a small fortune. The keen ones keep coming back and apply for residence visas, which is fair enough. 

[Southside]

Too many folks don't want to work their way up, they just don't want to work. Air conditioned cab tractor, blue tooth radio, etc - can't find a qualified person to put in it. Seems everyone wants to become an "influencer" even though they don't know a thing. 

[mike_belben]

I suppose that the only way to have reliable help is to grow your own

And even then, we tell them to stay in school so they can get a "decent job".

I see the stuff my kids are learning in school and routinely tell them most of it is absolutely useless.  You are there to make friends and have fun while life is carefree.  I will teach you what you really need to know so that you can be useful to the world someday, and not as an "activist" which is mostly what the school is doing to them.


Standardized test scores wont pay your bills kid. Everyone has a calculator and siri in their pocket.  Show up, do the dirty job, get your check and spend it on real assets. 

[Crossroads]

Welcome to my world - try adding milking cows to that list.  

Probably get more work out of those milk cows than most of the teenagers these days. 

[Ianab]

Mike, I have to partly disagree there, at least from what I see in my kids local school.  I agree with the social learning, because that sort of interaction is often more important than pure academic stuff. Those kids that are confident and friendly generally have no problem finding jobs. 

So I get a txt from the Primary school that Lara is getting an award at the end of her last year prize giving. Hmmm, she's not top of class in anything, and not any great athlete? Anyway she shared one of the final awards for "School Spirit", which is a pretty vague thing, like being popular with all the teachers and students?   

But the school reports Ms 14 brings home is still big on the maths / science / English, but not on a pass / fail basis. It's graded on progress, so at 14 you should be working at "level 5". Lara's comes home with mostly 5+, some 6 and a couple of 4+ The 4+ isn't a "fail" just "needs more work", Back in day that was a "fail" 

But seriously, You and Me don't have the knowledge to get our kids into Engineering or Medical school. And 1/2 of the parents out there are below average. 

Show up, do the dirty job, get your check and spend it on real assets.

But 1/2 the population is "below average" and probably has trouble with that concept, let alone "start as an apprentice on minimum wage and get qualified". 

But the local high school is balanced between "trade" and kids that should go on to Uni. So no shame in leaving school with level 2 national standards and getting a building apprentice job. The units they did complete are recorded, and can be added to with Level 3+ subjects at trade school.

[stavebuyer]

In 2014 I had 13 employees. At that point the running of the sawmill and lumber grading was an after-thought. Your time is consumed by compliance. Your lumber stacker owes back child support, didn't file his tax return or neglected to report his unemployment guess who gets saddled with making those payments for them along with all the mandated forms and reporting that comes along with it. Then of course comes the loss prevention specialist hired by your work comp underwriter. Does the cap fit properly on the $100 OSHA approved metal fuel can? Did you do a baseline hearing test? Did Joe complete his certified forklift safety training? Please respond in writing within 10 days on how you have addressed these issues. I responded by sending all of it down the road.

I did very well financially but nothing about the process appealed to me.

[Ianab]

I did very well financially but nothing about the process appealed to me

I was talking with the ex FIL, and his  take was that once you get to 4+ employees, then you became a "manager". As in it was a full time job just organising the workers. He ran a panel and paint shop,between talking to customers  insurance Cos, ordering part's a supplies, he spent 

Now you can make that work,. if you have 4 guys that you pay $20 an hour, but charge out and  earn  $40, then you might have a business model that works. But 2 or 3 employees is messier, as you have to get all the compliance in order whether you have 2 employees or 20. 

[customsawyer]

Growing up in Southern Colorado where it was first settled by Mexicans, I always admired how family orientated they are. If a family member needed help a uncle, brother, cousin came a running. It is so bad here even the Mexican restaurant has had a help wanted sign in the door for almost a year. Getting someone to come out and work at the mill is almost impossible. Hired 4 in a two week period and none of them made it to 11:00 in the morning.  

[YellowHammer]

People complain how machines are taking over, how automation displaces workers, how it isn't fair to replace a human with a machine.  I say that my purchasing of new equipment is now directly related to doing just that.  

Sorry, if I can't find someone to help me saw, then I spend $75,000 buying a bigger and more capable sawmill.

If I can't find someone to help run the planer or surfacer, I spend $50,000 on more capable planing and surfacing equipment, and on electrical equipment to power it.  The new machine does what I used to do in a fraction of the time.

If I can't even hire some to change out the bags on the dust collection system, I get a dust collector the doesn't have them.

I outsource some of my very specific jobs to other companies, so I "use" their employees, and don't have to deal with their frustrations.  Every couple weeks, the employee's faces change and their managers complain to me they can't find good help.  I just smile and write them a check and load up my wood and say I'll be back next week with another load.

Can't find good trucking help?  Don't want to pay shipping?  Got DOT compliant and do it myself.  I spent lots of money on good trailers and trucks, and me and my dog do what others won't.  

My next big find?  Labor saver?  I need a small sawmill lumber stacker.  One that will stack and sticker, and one that will dead stack dried lumber from the kilns.  I'm looking and not finding.  That would replace one full time employee.  How much would I spend?......I don't know, but its about the equivalent to $15 per hour for a couple years.....and I don't have to talk nice to it.....

Nobody cares about keeping my business afloat, except family and friends.  No employee cares if they "quit" and it puts me in a bind.  So I don't care if I replace them with a machine, sorry, nothing personal.  I've said it more than once on an impromptu job interview, guy drives in with a new car, wearing khakis, loafers, polo shirt. I just tell them, I'm not hiring, and "You don't want to work here, it's hard work.  This ain't slinging hamburgers."

I still have to do some paperwork though, it's from the Department of Labor who requires I explain why an employee who never worked for me was terminated.  Just had one the other day.  It's an easy answer.  The claim is a fraud, arrest them, I don't know who they are, never hired them, never fired them, not my problem.  Except I have to leave a message because "Call volume is high" and they can't hire enough people to man the Fraud hotline.       

[moodnacreek]

Never had a real employee. Always had a Saturday helper or someone I could call if I got in a jam. The 'partner' that does the firewood here was [is] the main man but has a full-time job. I own the truck he delivers with and I keep his deck full. He made the log body for the log truck when we got it and so on.  Immigrants used to stop by asking to work here but the danger of the machinery would never allow me to hire them , besides I really need 2 to stack and sticker and then there would be the training as I am very fussy about stacking good lumber. And what about OSHA? And then there are the slow times we used to have with no income.    Machinery is the answer. For what you would pay a man one year you can buy a used green chain loader or stack track or etc. etc. So with my self built board handling machines I saw by myself what I can during the week, never more than 1500 to 2000 a day and not a full one often anymore.             I have 2 yard loader trucks and 2 10,000 lbs. forklifts and a sawmill, edger, conveyers, separator table, slap drag etc. in between. If I have to saw 12 x12 oak for example the log truck puts an oak log on the live deck [1 log only] , I square it up, flip it back on the log deck, reverse deck chain, climb op on loader and grab 12x12 and replace it with another oak log. Not very efficient but I'm not waiting for some one to show up. If my wife had not got that job at the collage I would had to of got a job!

[WV Sawmiller]

Pics of the young lady helper please howard.;D

Sorry this is the only one I got and she is in the background. She was humping 16" wide oak 4/4 boards all day and I was sawing too fast and she was moving too fast to take more pictures.

Robert,

   I like your concept of getting machines to provide labor. My FIL said in America we would build a machine to replace 100 men to dig a ditch while the Chinese would hire 100 ditch diggers with shovel. I saw that in effect in Africa with Chinese companies building roads there in 2008. One Chinese engineer would be sitting on a hilltop watching/supervising a couple hundred local men and women with hand tools and even what looked like stretchers carrying stones for bank backing. I saw 2 women with a stretcher with a 4" tall box built on their stretcher and they'd fill it with baseball sized stones then haul it over to fill in the gaps. We'd never find that many helpers for that hard work so we'd have had a cement truck and one driver/operator to do the same thing.

[Stephen1]

Hired 4 in a two week period and none of them made it to 11:00 in the morning.  

thats just about when I like to start work! 

[Ron Wenrich]

I've had a few employees, and I've worked with companies that have had several employees.  Never been with the really big companies.

The first thing to realize is that you're expecting your employees to have the same work ethic that you do.  The problem there is that you have a financial incentive to get as much work from them as you can get at a certain rate.  The employee has an incentive of doing the least amount of work for what the pay offers.  When you're working with family, they have more of an incentive to see you do well than to see you fail.  I've seen lots of companies do well with family as employees, and I've seen them have problems.

I've seen and have advocated for companies go to a bonus system for increased production.  If a guy is going to bust his tail, he deserves to make some extra.  It gets rid of a lot of complaining.  You need to know where your breakeven point is in production with the extra labor cost.  Figure your expenses and a profit.  After that point, give extra money for the extra effort on a per Mbf basis. 

It worked pretty well in the instances I was involved with.  Workers were interested in daily production numbers.  They had a goal to get to to get the extra income.  They showed up on time (part of the requirement to get the bonus), and I worked with some guys for years.

Another factor was the best managers were those that didn't try to micro-manage the help.  I always told guys I didn't care how they did a job, as long as it got done in a reasonable amount of time, and done properly.  I've seen managers that didn't think anyone could do a job as good as they could.  So, they had guys standing around waiting for the manager's approval or instructions.  It made the job intolerable for some of the help, so they quit.

Milling can be tough on people.  Its hard work, and you're going to get your fingers smashed, things dropped on your foot, and you're hearing is going to be effected.  Its not for everyone.  One year, I went through 20 workers from Jan-May to find 2 that would stick it out.  Today we have to compete with a lot of the local warehouses that have popped up in the area.  Starting pay is about $20/hr.  If you think you'll get quality workers for less, you're dreaming.

[Bruno of NH]

It can be a challenge 
Last January I hired a guy I knew from high school who had got in a bad accident and wanted to work to rehab himself. 
Best guy I have runs the skid steer and anything else needed.
I have been lucky this year as I have found others to help as well , some last some dont.
I forgot Jeremy a full time paramedic and firefighter he tries to work 2 days a week if he can , with his schedule. 
I hope that he will take over when he's ready to retire from firefighting.
We have talked some about it.

[WV Sawmiller]

Ron,

  I like the incentive plan. Just explaining often helps. I had a dull blade hit a knot and create a small wave yesterday and replaced the blade and cut a 3/8" trim cut to flatten it back out. One of the helpers wanted to know why I did that so I showed him. I was sawing a 24" wide crotch and had to move the log forward 6" so the crotch would extend over the L side just enough I could clear it with my roller guides and they wanted to know about that so I showed them.

   I showed the young lady in the picture earlier the different features on the mill and  what I was doing and she was very happy. She evidently was not well educated and usually ends up as a laborer doing the grunt work. She said most bosses would not explain to the workers how a machine or process worked because they were afraid she'd learn how to do it and take their job.

  I had a chief in the USMC working for me who used to be reluctant to cross train the employees because they were too important in their regular job. I told her if I ever had an employee/Marine who was so important I could not without them I'd transfer them out as we could never get in that position. I told her if I did not have someone else trained to do her or my job we could never go on leave/vacation. She later saw why that was important when we'd have to send an NCO off on emergency leave or to NCO school, annual marksmanship training, or such etc and could slide someone else to fill in.

[mike_belben]

In 2014 I had 13 employees. At that point the running of the sawmill and lumber grading was an after-thought. Your time is consumed by compliance. Your lumber stacker owes back child support, didn't file his tax return or neglected to report his unemployment guess who gets saddled with making those payments for them along with all the mandated forms and reporting that comes along with it. Then of course comes the loss prevention specialist hired by your work comp underwriter. Does the cap fit properly on the $100 OSHA approved metal fuel can? Did you do a baseline hearing test? Did Joe complete his certified forklift safety training? Please respond in writing within 10 days on how you have addressed these issues. I responded by sending all of it down the road.

I did very well financially but nothing about the process appealed to me.

Its all been designed to ruin our economic system and send it overseas where they arent saddled with any of this BS.  They work in flipflops.  Your foot, your problem. Dont stick it in the press.  

[Patrick NC]

It's kind of ironic that I'm reading this thread while I'm waiting for the guy I hired to help me this weekend.  He was supposed to be here at 9am. Called about a half hour ago and said he was 20 minutes away.  ??? He was on time yesterday,  but apparently 2 days in a row is too much to ask. 

[Southside]

The first thing to realize is that you're expecting your employees to have the same work ethic that you do.

Ron - you are absolutely right.  I guess the thing is those of us who do go into business for ourselves have always approached every job with the mindset expressed best by Don Henley in his song with The Eagles "Get Over It", at least I sure have.

[WDH]

Another factor was the best managers were those that didn't try to micro-manage the help.  I always told guys I didn't care how they did a job, as long as it got done in a reasonable amount of time, and done properly.  I've seen managers that didn't think anyone could do a job as good as they could.  So, they had guys standing around waiting for the manager's approval or instructions.  It made the job intolerable for some of the help, so they quit.

I was at a Manager Training Session in the dark ages and one of the managers there told this story:

He was a Team Manager in a Pulpmill managing a team of hourly workers who ran important machines in the process.  It was a Union mill so there were scheduled breaks where the line would be shut down for the break and started up again after the brake.  The manager said that everyday at break time he would tell the workers to shutdown and go on break.  When breaktime was over, he would come into the breakroom and tell them to get back to work.  

One day he put the team on break but got called away for some reason.  When he came back a long time after the break should have been over, he found the workers still sitting in the breakroom.  The manager was highly upset that the line was not up and running and he asked them why they were still sitting there and had not gone back to work?
One of the senior members of the team spoke up and said, "Boss.  If you are going to tell us exactly what to do and when to do it, you have to tell us to do it all the time."  I never forget that  .

[WV Sawmiller]

   Dad worked at a pulp mill in a local paper mill and said at one point an employee filed a grievance for something the boss had done and he had proof he, the employee, was in the right. During the hearing the boss agreed but commented about the employees rambling from place to place to visit friends and such during working hours and the employee dropped his grievance because it documented and ensured they retained their "rambling rights" which it did. :D He said that was much more valuable than any monetary compensation he was expecting and owed.

[Tacotodd]

At the parts stores that I worked, it was EXTREMELY irritating for my bosses to come up to me to congratulate me on setting record upon record for sales and profits for our are, and in the same visit they would tell/ask me "but what have you done for me lately". LEAVE ME ALONE AND LET ME DO WHAT I DO! I'll show you, don't harass me. Just because others can't do what I do doesn't mean that I should be classified in the same boat that "they" are. I didn't think of my job as an hourly thing, I thought of it as taking as good of MY customers like I was by my parts guy when I was trying to get my vehicle fixed up to drive to HS in the summer between junior and senior year. He took care of me and it was a great feeling that he went above and beyond. And that's how I treated my customers. What I got in return from my customers was LOYALTY to buy from me!  My bosses were amazed by that fact but they were never satisfied. That's an extremely aggravating feeling to know that YOU are what's making them money, yet they ALWAYS want more. I treated it like I owned the business and it's amazing what happens when you treat your customers how you want to be treated. The people that worked for me, I had to much red tape that I'd have to go through to "send them down the road", so I just treated them in a manner that they voluntarily quit. It's quick and easy to see someone that WANTS to work for people vs. someone who will only work for X amount per hour. As you guys know, it's a big difference as well.

[customsawyer]

One thing I have learned over the 28 years I've ran my  business. You will end up working more for your employees than they do for you. That is a bit of a loaded statement that not all people will get.

[Bruno of NH]

One thing I have learned over the 28 years I've ran my  business. You will end up working more for your employees than they do for you. That is a bit of a loaded statement that not all people will get.

I totally get it and understand what you are saying.

[Bruno of NH]

When I was building I had a guy working with me that came from California. 
When he lived there he worked for a company that built out housing developments that would last 5 to 6 years of work.
He ran a crew of all Latian Americans. He said they were the most loyal and family oriented people. Someone from the family would come every day and cook them a hot lunch and they would be hurt if he didn't join them. They worked hard and did a super job. 

[Machinebuilder]

 I had a chief in the USMC working for me who used to be reluctant to cross train the employees because they were too important in their regular job. I told her if I ever had an employee/Marine who was so important I could not without them I'd transfer them out as we could never get in that position. I told her if I did not have someone else trained to do her or my job we could never go on leave/vacation. She later saw why that was important when we'd have to send an NCO off on emergency leave or to NCO school, annual marksmanship training, or such etc and could slide someone else to fill in.

As I have grown my knowledge over the years, I have worked with too many people who wanted to be the "expert".
I take a different approach, I want as many other people to know what I know. That way I am not the person getting phone calls at night or on weekends.
As it is, I am still the "expert" on too many things, mainly because when the opportunity to train someone else, there isn't anyone available to train.
What I seem to be running into more the last several years is people do not want to learn, or take the chance at failing.
I always figure if its not working when i get there, when I make a mistake , its still not working.

[mike_belben]

 i am a terrible employee. 

[WDH]

And, you are your own Boss ;D.  

[Bruno of NH]

I want them to learn everything they can and will show them.
But some don't pay any attention to what you show them.

[Walnut Beast]

I've known many guys that had multiple employees and crews and in the end they made way more money and less headaches with just themselves and a helper or a couple when needed. 

[boonesyard]

Today we have to compete with a lot of the local warehouses that have popped up in the area.  Starting pay is about $20/hr.  If you think you'll get quality workers for less, you're dreaming.

I can't get anyone to fog a mirror around here for $20/hr.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I'll take a good generalist over an expert any day of the week for normal work. I always figured a generalist would do 100 tasks per day to 10 an expert finished. If the generalist did 80 correctly, 10 marginally and 10 wrong that had to be redone, I still got 90 things done vs 10 at the end of the day. The generalist would learn from the failures and not repeat them in most cases.

   I can think of a couple of overseas projects where I stayed and turned out the lights as the last man on the project because as the experts finished the bulk of their work they'd move on and hand off the remaining punch-list type projects for me to handle until we handed the finished project to the client.

[mike_belben]

And, you are your own Boss ;D.  

True, but my boss is a jerk!

[YellowHammer]

I called a temp agency, and we talked about it.  They handle all the resumes, insurance, payroll, deductions, even the Christmas party.

He asked what I needed to put in the job opening.  I said "strong as an ox, dumb as a brick.  All he's got to do is stack wood, just shut up and work."  The guy laughed and said I couldn't put that in the job opening, I had to be more "exciting."  

So I said, would "Strong as a brick and dumb as an ox work better?"  

He said, yeah, that's $20 per hour. :D

I'm still working on the correct phrasing.  

[Percy]

Cultivating employees is an option....heh....Go to the local high school and talk to the shop teachers. Ask them to recommend a kid to  work cleanup every Saturday/whatever. Then slowly bring him up to speed learning all the way.... In another life, I was cultivated..... :D :D

[metalspinner]

@YellowHammer
🤣🤣🤣🤣

You REALLY might find so
Someone with that description!

[WV Sawmiller]

Robert,

   I like that phrasing. Honesty in advertising is refreshing. I suspect your recruiter does not want to list it that way because he'd have half the state of Ala to weed through for candidates. (The other half are Auburn fans. :D)

[mike_belben]

In another life, I was cultivated..... :D :D

Same here.  13 years old walking to my buddies.. Old man at his mailbox says you want a job. I didnt realize whipping boy was the position.  
That slave driver called me boy until the day i left at 16 or so.  Never got my name right.  


His kids blew his fortune in 5 yrs but ive still got his junk from the auction. Didnt pay a thing for any of it either.

Rest in peace wilfred, ya old turd.

[Southside]

@Percy here I can't have anyone under 18 do ANYTHING involving the sawmill.  They can't stack lumber, they can't put stickers down on stacks, can't toss scrap into the holding area, can't even use a rake and shovel to pick up sawdust after every piece of equipment is back down to ambient temperature.  Virginia considers that to be too dangerous.  Anybody still wonder why so many youth turn out with the work ethic they do? 

[YellowHammer]

Robert,

  I like that phrasing. Honesty in advertising is refreshing. I suspect your recruiter does not want to list it that way because he'd have half the state of Ala to weed through for candidates. (The other half are Auburn fans. :D)

The half that I really wanted for the job opening, the Auburn fans, couldn't read the job description, so couldn't figure out how to respond. I tried to plan for that because I typed it real slow and in short words, but no go...  I even offered an Alabama hat to wear.  

Nothing.

Oh, by the way, I'm sure nobody watched the game because its been awful quiet, but ROLL TIDE ROLL!!

[Bradm]

Just to put it out there, but what would it take to be able to pay good help $60,000+ per year?  Good help ain't cheap and it's up to us make sure that good employees can do their job well.

Locally, it's $22-25/hour just to get a body in the door and no guarantee that they'll be any good or stick around.  Last employee I had changed his attitude for the worse when he realized that he wasn't getting a 30% raise (he was barely worth the $18/hour at the time and forgot about the paid lunch, flex start time, after hours access to shop and tools) when the minimum wage went from $11 to $14 per hour.

Where's the incentive for employees to give their best when all they hear are the bad boss horror stories?  I had a bad boss who drove the work ethic out of me by screaming at me for sweeping floors, cleaning machines, loading pallets, unloading pallets, receiving and counting raw material coming in, spending time reducing our 22 page back order list by 50% by taking it and comparing it to what was on the shelf, and laughed at for starting a production record on a spreadsheet - all while keeping my 3-4 machines running and making good product.  How often do the good boss stories make the rounds?  I haven't heard many and they aren't anywhere near as memorable as the horror stories.

[btulloh]

Nobody likes to talk about a good boss, just the bad ones. People generally will complain about a boss, a product, the weather, or whatever much quicker than saying something positive. There are bad bosses but probably more good bosses that understand the value and necessity productive employees. 

Sorry you had such a bad experience.  

[Ianab]

Just to put it out there, but what would it take to be able to pay good help $60,000+ per year?  Good help ain't cheap and it's up to us make sure that good employees can do their job well.

To pay staff better, you have to make them more productive? You can pay someone $60k a year, IF they are earning you ~$120K more profit. That's hard to do just humping board around. The local mill I do IT support for has gone for the "value added". Rather than simply selling rough sawed 2x4s to builders, they can prefabricate a complete custom floor plan house. Builder sends in a basic floor plan of what the client wants built. They have a draughtsman on staff that runs that though a CAD program that works out all structural issues, adds in the bracing, designs the roof trusses etc. This gives them a plan that's all code compliant for the building inspector to look at. Then it generates a cut list on a USB stick. They take that down to the framing area, and a computer controlled mitre saw cuts all the pieces needed, with the angles and lengths completely accurate. Operator then assembles that on the table and uses a pneumatic press to secure the nail plates. All the parts get labelled, loaded on the truck and delivered to the building site. Builders love it because it's only a couple of days to assemble a whole house frame, and they know the plan is code compliant. Floor plan is customised for the what the client want for that site, but doesn't really cost any more than an "off the shelf" plan.  

Now that's added thousands of $$ to the value of the lumber, for a days work. The operators do need to be a bit smarter than the average Ox, but the job is fairly interesting, and can pay well because it's a semi-skilled job, that's earning good money for the company.  But the company has invested in the equipment / training to make it possible. 

[customsawyer]

For me to be able to pay a employee 60K per year they have to make more than 120K per year. First off his workers comp is going to cost almost 20K per year. His SSI is going to cost me $4590.00. We haven't added in any sick days or vacation time cost. Unemployment tax and a few other cost that I haven't thought of at the spur of the moment. So to pay someone 60K per year is closer to 90K actual cost. So I would expect that employee to make me closer to 180K per year. A good employee should make his employer at least as much as he cost.  That makes it even harder to do just stacking lumber. Lots of times employees don't realize what it actually cost to employ someone.

[stavebuyer]

Now Jake, I really think "fairness" requires that anyone working at your mill "deserves" a wage that will support them driving a new vehicle, have a fully funded retirement by age 40, and no cost health care at your expense. If your business model does not provide that level of income you need to raise your prices and cut your salary rather than exploit the workers. : :

[Cedarman]

The hardest thing to get employees to understand is that they need to understand what they don't know. In other words they should not guess at how to fix something.  They either know how to fix it, then do it, or know they don't know how and get someone with fix it knowhow. I tell them to never guess as the consequences of being wrong may be disastrous.  I always thank them for not guessing.  In grading boards for customers there may be a few boards that borderline make the grade.  I want them to set aside those boards so that we can go over them together and they can see why they go one way or the other. This helps them fine tune their grading.  Otherwise they are guessing.
I want them to know that quality of product is more important then quantity of product.
I try to take the amibiguity  out of instructions.  If I were to say, "Cut the board in 1/2", there are an infinite number of ways to cut a board into two equal pieces. If I were to say that, I want my emplyee to ask, "which way". Do I mean long ways, or cross cut?
I always thank them if they want me to explain in more detail or if "this is right" before they do the work. 
I want them to feel very comfortable about "bothering" me with questions.
It is like when a customer asks for two by fours.  Do you want full size 2" x 4" or nominal size 1 1/2 x 3 1/2".  What the customer wants and what I think they want can be two very different things.

Also, I am singing in the choir with the rest of you.

[YellowHammer]

I'm kind of working the business the other way.  I don't want a full time employee, I want a person who can do the things I have gaps in my machinery, i.e. stacking or handling thousands of pounds of wood.  As a rule of thumb, there are very few individuals who need full time employment that are smart or skilled enough, or have work ethic to be worth their money, or they would already be working for someone already.  Of course, there are exceptions, but I haven't seen many.

However, it is usually a better and easier strategy to find someone who can come in on the weekend who wants to supplement their weekly income somewhere else.  So that puts my employee requirements at 2 days a week, because sometimes employees get flex time at their "real" job, and can work two days a week to supplement their income.

So, during the week, I saw and edge every day, and dead stack everything off the mill onto pallets.  Then I also have kilns that get done, and those get stacked and staged.  When Saturday or Friday comes around, the employee shows up, and they are faced with lots and lots of pallets of wood.  They have a simple primary job, sticker stack the dead stacked green wood I sawed during the week and then dead stack the wood that has come out of the kiln.  That's it, and that's enough for any mere mortal, week after week.  What they don't get done, I'll do later, or pay them overtime and I will help them finish up.  I will work right with them, because it needs to get done.

If they do get done early, they can take a break and clean out under the mill, or other equipment.  That's their chance to impress me, to show if they have any other useful skills.  This way I don't have to micro manage them, they just stack wood.  Some have forklift certifications, they get to drive the forklift, but if they abuse my equipment, they are gone.  

However, if they are intelligent enough, the perk is that if they get finished, then they can come inside and run the cash register if they are personable enough.  They can take breaks when they want, I don't want them to overheat, and I treat them the same as if I was doing the same job, which I have for decades.  I simply need them to work. 

I've had quite a few employees over the years, I don't expect anybody to work for me very long, even the good ones.  

I'm friendly to them, I work beside them and they learn sawmill work is hard.  They move on.  I forget their name after awhile. Life goes on.  

I need a machine to stack and unstack wood. 

FYI, I was a supervisor in my old job for 20 years, managing multiple teams in a very high pressure environment.  Lead from the front, don't ask anyone to do what I won't or can't, don't over manage, don't micro manage, pay a fair wage, and treat them with respect.  Most times that isn't enough.

  

[WDH]

Robert,

  I like that phrasing. Honesty in advertising is refreshing. I suspect your recruiter does not want to list it that way because he'd have half the state of Ala to weed through for candidates. (The other half are Auburn fans. :D)

:D :D :D  There is hope for you, Howard.  

[mike_belben]

2 times i fell for the con that an extra human being would help me be more productive.  

One was my brothers coworker who had a useless teenage blob of a son that needed to get off the couch so one day a week theyd drop him off at my place.  At the time i went from parting out certain cars which morphed into backyard auto repair, and wanted him to keep dismantling stuff to put on the shelf while i worked on repair jobs 100 feet away.  I couldnt walk away from the kid.  He had no idea how to even use tools or identify the tool for the fastener, and the only way this would have worked is if mom and dad paid me to babysit him by the hour.  i woulda just put him in a stroller and billed it by the hour.


The other time is more substantial and had good come of it.  i was in the bank and saw steve.  he was a drunk who worked at the machine shop i was whipping boy at from 13-16 or so.  About 35yrs my senior.

Business debt had just forced me to start working 3rd shift at the plant and i was overwhelmed with manufacturing my product, dealing with sales calls,  packing  driving to post office, not sleeping at all then another nightshift. Barge style.  I couldnt stay awake.

Steve had worked at the machine shop until it got auctioned then retired, and i knew him to be a good machinist mon-thursday til atleast noon. My part was easy enough he could do it drunk.  Well his wife had cancer.  He was flat broke and begging me for work at the bank, he lived a 1/4 mile away and i grew up with his son.  

I took pity and thought this might be the next step.. I can sell the snot out of these super profitable widgits if i could produce them while i sleep. But production bottleneck was a cashflow bottleneck. Cashflow bottleneck meant i had to wait until i had money on friday to order materials at high price in small quantity. Then make next part that is a week overdue.

Well if steve makes batches while i do sales and shipping i will have 3-500% cashflow to grow with and then volume material purchases will fatten the margins. This could work.

So we negotiate a DAILY cash rate UTT.  I had to pay him $18/hr cash when i was making $21/hr OTT myself so that my entire paycheck went to him and id get paid as widgits sold.  Alright.. I can take a brief risk for a fat reward. Im good at going without money.

He shows up on day 1 wanting to talk about health insurance. Steve youre working for daily cash in a basement machine shop and getting my entire paycheck.  No i will not even consider buying you a family health plan with pre-existing cancer, im sorry.  

So i show him the job and he makes good parts.  I wake up and theres a few grand of stuff built on day 2, great job steve thanks. This could work,  Yes, see ya tomorrow.  Morning of day 3 i show him barstock that needs to be sawn into blanks to keep producing and he is scraping a barcode off the material for quite a while. Steve just cut it, the polishing wheel will take that right off.

im sleeping on a couch right above the shop and wake up to silence. Listen for a while to the minutes ticking my paycheck to oblivion and theres no sound. This isnt quiet work.

Creep down the stairs and bend to see.  Hes sitting on a stool reading the paper with the radio on. I walk down normally to where he can hear me coming and he grabs the barstock and starts scraping the sticker i said to leave.  I pretend to grab something just to observe and he has not cut one part in several hours and he only works about 4 hours a day.  Hes done nothing. That was his game when i was a kid too, find a spot to hide as long as possible. My blood boils, i chew him out about having the nerve to want insurance while you sit and produce me nothing in exchange for all my money, and send him packing.  

The increased productivity and income of a well rested helper while i was falling asleep standing and making too many mistakes and dazing out at the machine was an eye opener that gave me the drive to move forward.  opportunities came along in time where i subbed the machining to a coworker hungry for repetitive CNC contract work for his basement shop, and took on a sales partner whose buy in was fronting me the cash to buy bulk material.  He got paid in product and an exclusive retail agreement.  

So those 2 partners had their own businesses, the rates were fixed so margins stayed fixed, managing them was not my problem and they did all the hard work for me.  I just stayed in between the two of them and coordinated, packaged, and worked on continually lowering material cost. No tax implication or labor laws or where is he todays etc. It was about 7 great years.

Id rented an industrial space for all the machinery and kept the job at the plant for healthcare. Took on a subcontract bandsawing job that once i made various jigs was brainless.  I got paid a certain amount per cut and had several other people do it for about half or maybe a bit more of what i was getting but no one wanted to do it after a few rounds. You sat on a stool and brushed oil until a part change. If you were fast it paid pretty well but was boring.

Years back my dad and i bent thousands of rigid brand wrenches in a jig he built jist for the job. We did it as subs of a sub of a sub in an indistrial area where everyone sends work back and forth. When it was going right we made about a buck a minute and worked like gandy dancers in fast forward. Thankfully sporadic work, you wouldnt wanna do many straight days of it. Did that for years until danaher left.

You would be wiped out trying to pay hourly on something like this.  It MUST be piecework format.  The invaders have used govt fairness doctrines and mass sentiment to eliminate piecework for hourly work as a stumbling block to the american industrial machine.  

They all want fair.  But in piecework the lazy ash getting starved out is precisely the definition of fair.  You want more money you move faster.  Ohh.. This isnt gonna work.  Lets switch to hourly so they can do less and demand more.  Thatll bring down capitalism much faster.  It grinds to a halt whenever the profit margin dries up.


If you guys switch to piecework and price stacking by the count or by the ton etc then you can let them play on their phone, go smoke etc etc without getting angry.  He aint moving, its not costing me a penny.  when he stops moving my cost goes to zero, when he starts moving my profit comes up.   I only pay for done work done right and now dont have to be angry at what employee does. its always good for me as long as he does it right. and how he feels free to do it his own way. 


Piecework also keeps the faster guy feeling rewarded.  The harder i work the more i make an hour.  If the other guy is slow it dont mean im doing all the work for free.  No more whining to the boss.  

Im telling you guys try piecework pay out at least once. I never minded piecework in a crowd but i hate hourly with coworkers.  Im always doing more for the same money as mr lazy, so my brain says that guy is getting a chunk of my pay.  I cant stand this.  Im out.

[Bruno of NH]

I have had good luck this year with folks looking for extra work or just 2 or 3 days.
Then I find another one to fill in the other 2 days.
It's hard work some folks are in between jobs and want to work outside .

[longtime lurker]

My goal for the next 10 years is to become completely replaceable within my own business. (hopefully sooner)

You think getting good staff is hard? Try looking for that guy!!!

[stavebuyer]

My goal for the next 10 years is to become completely replaceable within my own business. (hopefully sooner)

You think getting good staff is hard? Try looking for that guy!!!

Thats why the sawmill dispersal auctioneers stay busy here.

[longtime lurker]

My goal for the next 10 years is to become completely replaceable within my own business. (hopefully sooner)

You think getting good staff is hard? Try looking for that guy!!!

Thats why the sawmill dispersal auctioneers stay busy here.

Yah well I don't want out, but I do want a life away from the sawmill... like weekends and be able to take holidays... while it ticks away without my hands on the throttle.  I've got the bones of a very good business here and I love what I do; but I'm tired and while I'm not at burnout I can see it from here. 
Good staff aren't impossible to find, but someone who can do what I do... the juggling act... those are hard to find. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I'll weigh in a little bit here from a different perspective. Like Mike I had a Machine shop for a number of years in a previous life. I built it around me, but when you get some good volume work, you need help. I would work that around what was available and I would spend the week setting up jobs on simple machining operations and getting the quality tweaked in, then on the weekends I would have friends come help, for cash, and I bought lunch for everyone and we made it a working party. I had a young fella that was one of my scouts years before and even had my accountant running machines. Chips would fly, parts would pile up and on Monday I smiled all day as I did the finishing work and cleaned up what was needed. Packed and delivered stuff Tuesday and Wednesday, then started prepping to for the weekend again. This won't really work in the sawmill worked and to be honest it wasn't a long term solution then either, but then I did get those high production low margin jobs, which were in fact, lucrative in the end, it did work. I finally closed that shop and went back to working for others. What did me in was not the labor/production side, it was getting paid in a timely manner. I spent too much time chasing invoices and pleading for the money I had already earned from these companies. They were using me to finance their business in a lot of cases. Sometimes payments in 90-120days, while I still had to pay for my supplies and help in 30 days or less.


 Today I am retired, but will have to work until the day before my funeral. That's OK, because now I am working for me, doing what I want and when I want. I no longer need to make "X" dollars a week to get by, I need "Y" dollars every few months to have what we need to be comfortable. The pressure is off and I keep what I make in the banks as a buffer against those 'surprises' that had brought us to our knees in years past.

 Since my retirement my little 'business' is off and on doing "ok" and I am mostly having fun and learning a lot. But there is a young fella down the road who bought a new LT50 in 2017 that still only has 130 hours on it and he has been trying to get me to be his sawyer since I retired. He says he will take care of me and work within my needs. I like this guy, he is half my age and grew up across the road. By the time he was 21 he bought 12 acres 2 miles down our road, now has 80 acres plus several other properties he rents. He does everything from excavating, arborist work, logging, site prep, septic systems, some construction, etc. The sawmill is a support operation but he has had to turn down orders for years. He has no time, but will run the mill to get something made quick that he needs. It would likely take a full time crew 3 years to mill all the logs he has stocked around the mill right now. His begging increased every time he turned down an order. Finally he said "I got this decent order. If you want to mill it up, I will take the order. If you don't want to, I will turn the order down. You tell me how you want to get paid, and what your rate is, work the hours you want until the job is done. I will get you a tailgunner when I can."

 Well my issue with this was, I have known this 'kid' for over 20 years. He was always the wild one that drove me crazy and did some really stupid stuff when he was younger. He is still a little wild, but frankly he is a truly self-made man in a time when it is a true rarity. I admire him and have more than a little respect for him. I did not want a boss/employee relationship to spoil that and this was the main reason I was hesitant, very hesitant. I explained this to him when I was getting to the point of really thinking about it seriously. He understood, so we took some time to figure out a way to pay me fairly for work produced fairly. I was the one that finally suggested he pay me by the BF as Mike suggested above. This allowed me to diddle around learning his mill and equipment without him paying for that time. Also, if it's hot/cold/windy/rainy/or I develop and 'attitude', I can decide I am done for that day and go do something else. Do I, as an 'employee' get the best deal out of this? Probably not, but that was never, and is not, the goal. I am not looking for 'a job'. I am looking to be useful and get paid a little for it. I have earned a few thousand bucks I would not have had otherwise. I wish I could get a tailgunner a little more often, but knowing I can come and go as I please makes a big difference. I still have my business too and he is sensitive to that and doesn't blink when that duty calls and I have to work with my own clients. We have adjusted our arrangement slightly in that I am now keeping track of hours for the time I am doing stuff not related to making lumber, such as sorting logs or cutting slabs for the OWB, he wants me paid for that time also but we haven't talked about a rate and I am not too concerned. The fact that he compensates me is good enough.

 So as Mike concluded, I shall do the same, piece work is a good deal to make, if you can do that. Not sure how you would do the for a sawyers laborer, but maybe you can find something. I will add that Bruno's idea of part-timers is a good one, and looking for retired folks, like myself might also be a good idea. Just because we are old, don't mean we are no good. We ain't fast but we are steady. :D In fact, I think retired guys would be near the top of my list if I were looking. I had an older friend help me for a day during my Mushroom Log Harvest back in June. He is not retired, but he should be, he is close to 70. He took a vacation day from his full time job to come work his butt off with me in the woods (Am I the only one who finds this funny?), the most productive day I had during that harvest, then he gave me back half the money I paid him because he said he had too much fun. (Actually he tried to give it all back, but we argued, and he took half to take his wife out to a nice dinner.)
 For sole proprietors all I can say is: "It ain't easy being us".

[KenMac]

Robert,

  I like that phrasing. Honesty in advertising is refreshing. I suspect your recruiter does not want to list it that way because he'd have half the state of Ala to weed through for candidates. (The other half are Auburn fans. :D)

The half that I really wanted for the job opening, the Auburn fans, couldn't read the job description, so couldn't figure out how to respond. I tried to plan for that because I typed it real slow and in short words, but no go...  I even offered an Alabama hat to wear.  

Nothing.

Oh, by the way, I'm sure nobody watched the game because its been awful quiet, but ROLL TIDE ROLL!!

I have learned something very valuable that being an Auburn fan has contributed to in a big way. The Bible states that we are to be humble in all things. Being an Auburn fan makes that easier. I will always be an Auburn fan, but last Saturday I pulled for Bama big time. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Kent,

   As hard as this is to admit I was pulling for UGA last Saturday. I'd just finished sawing for a repeat customer/sometime log provider who moved here from outside Atlanta and he's a good guy and swayed me a little. Besides, I kind of like one of those guys with a bumper sticker that says "My favorite teams are Auburn and whoever is playing Alabama this week" (As long as it is an SEC team. I will root for UA against an out of conference team. ;))

[YellowHammer]

(As long as it is an SEC team. I will root for UA against an out of conference team. ;))

I can respect that.  You have standards.  SEC rules.

I would think Georgia will have another shot at us.  You'll be able to root against us then.  I'm sure they will have a better game plan this time.

As I was stacking wood today off the sawmill, I was thinking about this topic, and mentally designing the Yellowhammer Efficient Lumber Placer, or otherwise know as the YELP!  

It's still a work in progress.   :D :D

[KenMac]

I have family in Georgia who are obnoxious Dawg fans. I could tolerate them until my parents' deaths brought out the vulture in them. My wish is that the Bulldogs never win another game of any kind!

[Nebraska]

@KenMac ....f you want to make it hard on the Bulldog fans wish them to loose most of their games by one score  no matter if the opposing  team is a dumpster fire or ranked in the top ten. 

Sorry back to the previous topic...

[WDH]

A Native American tribe's status was measured by the might of their enemies. 

Ken and Howard enjoy high status.  

[mike_belben]

So as Mike concluded, I shall do the same, piece work is a good deal to make, if you can do that. Not sure how you would do the for a sawyers laborer, but maybe you can find something.

trucking has a ton of different pay formats that are good in one area and bad in another and all sorts of in between to try to simply retain people.  when you cant go home for a week and have DOT dictating the stupidest stuff possible on your life, you have a lot of time to think and the company is always the bad guy. its very hard to keep a hired truck driver happy to stay away from the place he wants to be, and the industry has tried all sorts of way to A, keep them. and in some cases, B, exploit them.  


anyways my neighbor drives institutional foods in a daycab pulling short reefer.  so youve got hours, miles, stops and crates.   his pay is one of the most complicated things ive ever heard.. i really cant follow it, but its motivating enough that he wakes up at 1:30am, wakes me up leaving at 2am and has been doing it for years with few complaints. the jist of it is a certain small amount per day just for showing up, a certain amount per mile, a certain amount per box, a certain amount per stop.  

i am sure the time required for a sawmill to stay on top of this pay system would be substantial, but atleast it would be productive.  interviewing and training the next idiot walk on walk off hand every three days is wasted time. time spent developing and retaining a good crew is a long term investment that will pay back where walks offs and no shows wont ever be recouped or deductible.

as getting your check in the mail becomes a dominant theme in our slide to socialism, you will find less and less people who think there is any reason at all for them to work.  you guys are from the generation where a handout is pure shame.  i am straddling a split generation that has made all sorts of reasons why they deserve a break now and then and it is tough to stay old school when you have cold kids in a camper growing out of their shoes every week because the medical billing people are gonna get yet another future paycheck. the young generation entering the workforce now has been re-educating by grade school invaders into believing they deserve a universal free ride. so good flippin luck keeping a staff of tailgunners as the years go on.  universal resentment at the drudgery of labor will be what retires manual sawmilling. our machinery gets better and our culture gets worse, so it will become a robotic game. morale is everything when it comes to keeping people who have the option to live for free at their fingertips.

[mike_belben]

A Native American tribe's status was measured by the might of their enemies.

i never thought of it that way, but i can say it takes a big stick to live in peace where you arent wanted. 

[nativewolf]

(As long as it is an SEC team. I will root for UA against an out of conference team. ;))

I can respect that.  You have standards.  SEC rules.

I would think Georgia will have another shot at us.  You'll be able to root against us then.  I'm sure they will have a better game plan this time.

As I was stacking wood today off the sawmill, I was thinking about this topic, and mentally designing the Yellowhammer Efficient Lumber Placer, or otherwise know as the YELP!  

It's still a work in progress.   :D :D

Ha ha...all the SEC fans should enjoy this last golden period.  NIL and TP are going to move lots of folks cheese and the USC's and U Miami's  etc are finally able to unlock the money.  It's no longer even pretending to be a college sport.  I actually follow the player payment issues closely and have a good friend that helped lead the suits against the NCAA.  Kelley and Riley and Tucker and Cristo getting $8-10mln/year and soft guarantees of millions from alum for NIL deals.  They'll be poaching and it is going to get very expensive to get truly great recruits.  I digress but I expect to see SEC schools and most big 10 (12) schools suffer the most.  U Texas, Vandy, Michigan and NW have alum that can compete with the USC, Stanfords, Miami, UVA, Dukes.  Going to be very interesting to sit and eat some popcorn and see how it rolls out.  I'm a humble NC State wolfpack alum so a decent bowl game is all we really expect and hope for but I despises the illegal nature of the NCAA so I have paid attention to this ongoing bit of change in society.  

[WV Sawmiller]

Mike,

  For a brief period I was a company driver for Schneider who were the biggest truckload carrier in the USA at the time and may still be. They were very upfront about their compensation and were a very professional company to work for. They sent me to Charlotte NC and trained me to drive a truck. 

   You got paid based on the invoices you turned in and when you turned it in determined when you got paid. Each load had a delivery ticket signed by the receiver. You'd take that and drop it at one of the many Schneider OC's (Operating Centers) around the country and some of the major truck stops had Schneider drop boxes we could put them in or we could mail or FedEx it to them. If they got it before Wednesday you got paid for delivering that load in that weeks paycheck. 

    We got a mileage fee for the delivery. If we had multiple stops with one load we got a fee for each stop. (I remember stopping at a K-Mart with drops at Automotive, Lawn and Garden and Retail sales so got 3 drop off fees for that load. Inside the truck they had just put up heavy cardboard dividers to show what went where.) If we had to unload a truck we got paid a fee for that. Often there were day laborers at the consignee who you could pay to do that. For a quick and easy unload (which we rarely did anyway) you might grab a pallet jack and unload 8-10 pallets and make money in the process but for bigger job you'd pay the day laborers.

   If we stopped for maintenance and could not sleep/rest in our truck they reimbursed us for a hotel fee. They'd pay scale tickets on every load even if it was so lightly loaded you could never exceed weight limits on any roads - but if you were overloaded and got a ticket it was your ticket to pay. If you scaled it and could not make it legal by adjusting the 5th wheel or axles, we'd call the company and they'd send us back to the shipper who would remove some cargo or adjust the load. 

    All fees ended up being about the same as what you would have made if you had been driving the same amount of time so I assume the company based them on mileage. (Kind of like determining BF vs hourly sawing rates.)

    They gave us a fuel card to use at designated truck stops and we could draw a little advance pay off it for operating expenses. They'd have training they'd want us to attend at the OCs such as winterization, chains, etc. and they compensated us for that. The gave us meal tickets to use as the OCs and below cost company clothing and safety shoes to encourage us to wear their logo and stay safe. 

   To encourage team drivers, which made better use of the trucks keeping them rolling all the time and pretty much essential for east to west coast trips, they paid teams more per mile and provided them with the newest trucks. I found I could not rest when riding with a partner so I switched to solo and when I stopped I slept good in the truck. 

   They paid for any parts and such as lights or padlocks, kingpin locks, etc. we bought and many they'd just give you and/or install if you stopped at an OC. Schneider preferred owner/operators contracted to work for them and had programs where drivers could piggyback on Schneider truck purchases and get a new truck at the same rates they paid for their new fleet. 

   They tried to get you home every weekend but every other week was more common. They'd send you home loaded and many times a weekend at home still meant I'd have to deliver in Chicago or such at 8:00 a.m on Monday so I'd have to drive all night Sunday. To get you a load passing your house you might have to ferry and drop off 2-3 short loads till you got one going your way.

   I think these compensation policies were pretty much the norm for the major trucking companies. Its not an easy life and nobody is more situationally aware of time management because you had to know how many hours your had driven that week, how many more you had before you had to take a mandatory break and when you could resume driving and how much time you had to make your next delivery to meet your drop off schedule. If you missed your delivery time you might have to go to the back of the line and wait a very long time. You'd have to know if you had time to stop for a shower and a sit down meal or if you had to grab a sandwich and keep rolling to meet your schedule.

   You learned to keep a cooler with some sodas and sandwich makings as you might get to a delivery and they did not have a break room with anything in there for the drivers although most did have vending machines for such.

   You'd meet some real jerks but the greatest percentage I met were great people. I've had local drivers actually lead me to a shipper or consignee in a a place I did not know. I'd get on the CB and ask for help and someone would tune in and we'd link up along the route and he'd tell me "turn here, go 2 blocks and they are right across the street from the Pepsi plant." Drivers would warn each other about trailer lights being out or a fuel cap being loose that you forgot to tighten, or talk to you and keep you awake on those early morning runs when your body is trying to shut down. They'd warn you if you started drifting over lanes and you could park for some rest before you'd fall asleep at the wheel and kill yourself.

   Its not for everybody but it is good honest work with decent compensation if you are with a reputable company but it can be hard on your body and family life so you have to plan and act accordingly. I still don't see why more women did not take up trucking as the compensation was identical for all drivers and they could certainly make more than admin, clerical or most sales type work.

   When you see a trucker pulled off on an exit ramp of the interstate don't criticize him for it. He doesn't want to be there but the truck stops and rest areas are all full and he does not have a safer place to stop and he has run out of hours or knows he is too sleepy to safely be driving and pulled over where he could. If you pull up to the light at the same time a trucker does back up a little and give him the extra room he needs to make that turn. You want and need what he is delivering so help him when you can. You will be rewarded in heaven for doing so down here. ;D

   Okay, off my soap box for a while.

[mike_belben]

youre describing the old days of trucking that ive heard plenty about.  it has changed a lot.  i was lucky enough to experience of year of it in a little time warp of loose leaf logs, a good CB and a "classy" 379 approaching 2million with all the character to prove it.  i never took a break because someone told me to, thats for sure.

the old drivers gave ya a lot of respect in an old rig.  these corporate plasti-truck folks dont even have radios.  up in the northeast youre just talking into space.  hardly anyone up there has a radio or helps each other out anymore.  

little part of me misses it. there was just enough daily struggle to keep things exciting, and and the gig i had brought a lot of independance.  there were times i didnt speak to the office for 2 weeks and went where i wanted.  i made the most money on those weeks every time. if i didnt have a family or too many ties, id be chasing lanes and milking load brokers for every last cent, in a real nasty truck.  im naturally well suited to all of the challenges of owner op trucking. lot of that from the dysfunctional functionality of life in the marines.  get it done or die trying.  

[WV Sawmiller]

   Hard to believe no CB radio. Used to be you'd pull up to a customer site and there would be a big sign telling you what station to turn your CB to and you'd call in and they would tell you where to unload or where to wait and call you when they were ready for you. I guess now they have a phone number to call and they call your cell phone back when its your turn. I know paper logs are going by the wayside and the trucks computer keeps an electronic log and will shut you down and put you in creep mode when you run out of hours. You can creep along slow enough to get off the road but not make highway speeds. 

   Usually we would pick up an empty trailer and drop it at the shipper's plant and pick up a loaded one. One of the hardest tasks would be to find an empty trailer. In some cases, car makers were the worst, they would use our trailers as free warehousing and when they unloaded a trailer they would backfill with engines or transmission racks or such and store it in the lot till they needed them. If they needed the trailer they would empty and move their stuff but the trucker had no such option. I drive through acres and acres at a GM or Ford place and never find an empty trailer although several would be there with customer stuff in them. 

[mike_belben]

i can only remember 1 place with a CB in the office.  2000 model year requires ELD.  pre 99 engines do not as of now.  far as i know paperlogs still acceptable altho most companies have gotten away from them to prevent cowboy drivers running under the radar.  the place i worked at there was no choice not to.  

[WV Sawmiller]

   I drove an old International cabover which I guess they no longer even make. I don't remember the last time I saw one. Conventionals are all you see now.

   I ran into a local trucker in Seattle one time at a repair shop. He said when he got out of the Army he said he never wanted to work for anyone again so he took all his money he had saved while in the army and went to the International dealer and bought a cabover and paid cash. When the dealer handed him the keys and shook hands thanking him and started to leave the guy called him back and said "Hey, wait. You've got to show me how to drive this thing and shift these gears." He had never been in one. The dealer was amazed but showed him how to shift the gears and such and he said he'd been driving ever sense. He said he'd driven a cabover so long he could not drive anything with a hood out in front. He said when he tried to drive his wife's Olds he'd knock over the trash cans and hit the mailbox and such. He said he had bought himself and old VW bus where he could sit up over the engine and he said that and his truck were all he could drive. :D He was very interesting to talk with.

[mike_belben]

lol

it takes some time to get used to driving with a shed in front of the windshield. 


i adore IH 9670 cabovers and have called on a few.  i went to kentucky to look at an old white/volvo cabover with a 350BC and 9 speed i think but it was poorly stretched and a huge project.  came close to buying several big trucks. that $20k a year insurance premium always brings me back to earth. 

it isnt the life for my spouse anyway.  

[Silverfoxfintry]

In Stirlingshire in Scotland we have been very lucky. The day to day operating of the mill is down to a single mum with two children. She started cleaning the office and kitchen area and was a hard worker. She was looking for more work, so, David took a chance and spent a week with her, showing her how to run the mill.
My god, she is a worker! Yes she has made mistakes, but she is one of the most productive workers he has ever had.
I have taught her the hourly and weekly maintenance. Not only what to do but why it has to be done.
I agree that good workers are hard to find and harder to keep, but once you get one hang on to them.

Take care 

Silverfox.

[Ron Wenrich]

Re:  working by the BF.

I worked around mills mainly as a consultant and hired gun.  I mainly sawed for one mill, and everything was done by the BF.  But, the trick is that you have to be set up as a business.  You have to set the time that you can saw, you have to take care of all the expenses, such as insurance, SS, and any license you may need.  You also can set the conditions of work.  I didn't do repairs, as my mechanical skills aren't as good as my sawing skills.  You also should have income from other clients or sources in the industry.  You won't be covered by workmans comp or unemployment.  You also have to watch out for other liabilities. 

That's real hard to do for an employee.  If you are giving them instructions, such as time of operations, job performance, etc, they will be considered employees, and that means they get all the benefits that the govt mandates. 

I worked that way for 30 yrs.  It was beneficial for both sides.  I sent in a production report every week, and a check was ready the next.  I basically talked to the owners only a couple of times a year.  Their mill foreman ran the operation.  The only time there was friction was when he tried to tell me how to do my job.

[GullyBog]

The first thing to realize is that you're expecting your employees to have the same work ethic that you do.

Ron - you are absolutely right.  I guess the thing is those of us who do go into business for ourselves have always approached every job with the mindset expressed best by Don Henley in his song with The Eagles "Get Over It", at least I sure have.

First time I've looked into this song.  I needed to hear that.  I reckon the unwritten rule of labor is the worker struggles and the boss stresses.  At the end of the shift the struggle is over but the stress never goes away.  Music helps.

[GullyBog]

Lead from the front, don't ask anyone to do what I won't or can't, don't over manage, don't micro manage, pay a fair wage, and treat them with respect.  Most times that isn't enough.[/quote

"Lead from the front" is the only way to get a good one.  People who chase from behind end up in a corner

[Plankton]

Love that story about the cabover trucker :D

Don't have anything to add about employees but just learned how to drive truck last year 18spd no clutch loaded log truck haha. It's not an easy craft that's for sure. Impressed he wheeled out of a dealership never being in one before.

[Solomon]

Good help is hard to find,  Good reliable help is impossible to find.
Every once in a blue moon someone thinks they want to work for me,( I own a Logmaster LM4, ) and they are passionate about it.
 But.... they never last long, a day , maybe two.
 So I now tell them that I hold back a week's pay and if they quit or lay out within two weeks,   they don't get paid.
 If they agree to those terms , I will give them a shot at it.
 In the last 12 years, I've had two guys agree to it, and about a hundred walk away.  Niether of the two stayed long enough to get paid.   Nobody wants to work or learn anything anymore.
 That's what American society has been reduced to thanks to a certian political party of which I am not a member.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I like the idea of completion bonuses. I am not sure about the legality of holding back pay. I worked overseas projects and most of them had something like a 10% completion bonus which got to be pretty significant and an especially good incentive to stick it out after you had already been there 6-7 months and built up some equity. We don't typically sign on for fixed/defined length contracts to work here like you would on a construction project like those often were but giving someone a defined date like a year or 6 months or such would be good incentive.

[Southside]

Over the past two weeks I am seeing applicants from Haiti and now all over Virginia with what I believe are Afghan names. Nothing with any remote experience or qualifications, seems to me just a way to continue getting unemployment benefits or a free trip to the US. 

[GullyBog]

It only takes one generation for our way of life to snuff out a good work ethic.  Time to put more chores on my kids.

[stavebuyer]

I set weekly production goals that added a meaningful amount to everyone's check. Worked pretty well and they got the bonus the majority of the time. Downside is you have to pay close attention to see that all PM and housekeeping tasks are carried out.

[SawyerTed]

Just asked our crew of 7 to do some overtime between now and Christmas and possibly until Mid January.  Money is tight for the company but its even tighter for our crew members.  We explained that our orders for wood shavings are outpacing our current production. 

I decided to ask their input on scheduling based on what our production goals are.  They came up with with a very workable plan that's fair to everyone.  But 5 out of the crew are 45 years old or older (I'm the second oldest here).  Those guys know when the company does well, they do well too.  All seven are doing their share without any complaints.  Having them help make the decisions reduces the complaining. 

In the end we asked some to do an early start and some to run extra hours in the evenings with a rotation that helps everyone have their Christmas celebrations.

[mike_belben]

 bon_fire


Good for the morale 

[longtime lurker]

Thing is that when you start employing people you need to have a degree of flexibility.

Flexibility around when things get done, including time off for holidays and school things and medical things.
Flexibility about how things get done. You can't micromanage or not allow room for initiative. Sometimes you even learn new tricks yourself that way.
Flexibility about what it costs to get things done. One of the trade offs of having people there to make you money is that sometimes you're paying people to sit around and do nothing.

Mostly what I've found with staff is that the old chestnut about getting what you pay for holds as true there as anywhere. You hire capable people and treat them well and pay them well... they stay with you and with the vast majority of people you give them a good work environment, a feeling of being valued, decent money and if they like the work they'll want to stay. And because they want to stay then they have a de facto interest in your business remaining viable and tend to do that bit more to make it so.

You can't blame a guy on minimum wage for wanting to do better for himself.
You can't blame a guy doing heavy manual labour for finding a less physically demanding way to make the same money.
And you can't not pay a guy a competitive wage just because your own equipment is uncompetitive - it's hardly his fault your gear can't punch the volumes required for you to pay him fairly.

And that last is a big thing... for you to make money from other peoples sweat you have to give them tools that produce faster than the water runs out of them. Paying wages for guys to work behind hobby level equipment and expecting them to get more than hobby level production is not a viable option, it just doesn't work except in very rare cases. Paying wages to hump lumber around is never going to make you as much money as paying wages to stack off a green chain for instance.

I wouldn't want to go stand in the sun humping lumber about all day for peanuts myself, no way would I be suprised when nobody else wanted to either.