iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Methods for putting timbers in the ground?

Started by Daburner87, August 04, 2022, 07:24:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Daburner87

I see a lot of people making rustic sawmill sheds and such while putting large timbers in the ground with a wide variety of methods, and I'd like to get some feedback on some of these methods as I'm trying to build a sawmill shed, and a few other buildings on my property without spending a fortune.    

Method 1:  Digging 3-4ft deep, putting down some crushed rock/gravel, setting the post, then filling with dirt. 

Method 2:  Digging 3-4 feet deep, a layer of crushed rock topped off with a solid cement block for the timber to sit on.   Propane torch on the bottom and base of the timber, and filling with cement.

Method 3:  Digging 3-4 feet deep, a layer of crushed rock, then surrounded by cement.  


These are the basic methods I'm seeing done.  Cement piers are probably my best option, but the cost of the tubes, simpson strong ties, etc... add up quick when dealing with 6x6 or larger timbers.  Method 2 definitely seems like the best to me, but are there any methods I'm missing?  Any recommendations?

HM130Max Woodlander XL

kantuckid

Go to HD website and check out plastic forms for pier construction. I bought 9 each and shipped to my rural home back door for free.  A concrete materials supplier has the tubes and bases as well. There are various weights of the paper tubes, some box stores sell lighter weight versions than pro suppliers.
Or poison the ground (forever?) with used crankcase oil.
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

Some folks are using biochar nowadays because that char can support such a host of nutrients, fungi and bacteria, it is considered fertile ground for life. And other folks say that it is great for preserving wood from decay. Hmmm. All I know is digging under buildings is harder after the building is up.

Iwawoodwork

I don't think that concrete around any post is the best idea as it holds moisture and contributes to decay especially in posts not treated for in ground use.  my understanding from a pole building contractor friend is that he now uses fine gravel packed around the post with a pad in the bottom of the hole, to allow the moisture to drain away as quick as possible.

Daburner87

So do you think charring the wood is a good idea then?  My posts are probably going to be 8"x8".
HM130Max Woodlander XL

aigheadish

My pole barn was built by dumping some concrete in the bottom of a 4ish foot deep hole and allowing it to set up, then with the posts I bought a plastic sleeve that encases the post to above the dirt line, hole was filled with dirt/gravel. So kind of an in between of your 2nd option. The sleeves were not crazy expensive from what I recall.
New Holland LB75b, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Husqvarna GTH52XLS, Hammerhead 250, Honda VTX1300 for now and probably for sale (let me know if you are interested!)

beenthere

Quote a plastic sleeve that encases the post to above the dirt line, hole was filled with dirt/gravel

And theoretically, the sleeves will just trap water and not let it drain away. Doesn't sound like a good plan to protect the wood in the best way. just sayin...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

aigheadish

Ya know, beenthere, I've thought of that and forgotten it several times now... I'll have to look but I think the sleeves are mostly covered by the sides of the building. If not they'll have to be soon enough. Good call and reminder.
New Holland LB75b, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Husqvarna GTH52XLS, Hammerhead 250, Honda VTX1300 for now and probably for sale (let me know if you are interested!)

Jim_Rogers

Whatever method you choose to use, you do need to keep the wood as dry as possible. Water rots wood. There is no such thing as "dry rot".
The fence book I read, and the method I used, was to back fill the post hole with crushed stone so that any surface rainwater would drain to the bottom and hopefully keep the wood dry.
Soon after I bought my sawmill, I cut some regular eastern white pine 4x4 posts.
I painted the bottoms with some "fence post paint" that I got from Home depot.
And then after the fence was erected, we pained the above ground post, and rails with regular house paint.
And when I left the property, the fence was still standing some 25 years after I put it in.

Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Tom King

Google "Termite Infestation Probability Map".   The zones really do make a difference in odds.

Joe Hillmann

I don't like wood posts set in cement.  At some point that post will rot and need to be replaced.  It is  much easier to dig out a post with noting but dirt around it than it is to dig out one encased in cement.

Right now I am in the process of rebuilding a bunch of 50 year old fence lines.  Every 1/8 mile it switches which  farmer put up that section of fence one of them set the posts in cement, the other set them in the ground.  About 70% of the posts in each section are rotted off.  The ones set in cement I have to dig a hole next to it to put in a new post because I can't budge the cement with my little equipment.  The one set directly in the dirt I am able to pull out after a few minutes of digging around it.

tawilson

We dug down 4' or to bedrock and stacked chimney blocks,  and filled with rebar and concrete to above grade.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

scsmith42

Usually when I'm building a pole barn it is fairly tall, and I live in an area that experiences high winds on a regular basis. So uplift resistance for the poles is a factor that I take into account.

What I like to do is to auger the hole and drill some 1/2" holes in the bottom of my posts. I'll cut 1/2" rebar and drive it into the holes, and when I set the poles I'll pour a 12" thick concrete plug around the base of the hole.  The portion above the hole concrete is backfilled and compacted.  This "collar" on the bottom of the posts serves to significantly increase uplift resistance.

The portion of the poles that are embedded into the ground are treated.  Copper napthenate (CuNap) is about the best wood preservative that an individual can still buy.  I buy the concentrate, thin it with diesel and will set several posts into an open top 55 gallon drum.  The drum is then filled with the CuNap mixture and allowed to soak into the bottom of the posts for a few days.  The mixture will wick up the posts as well for a few inches, treating them slightly above the drum top.  Sometimes for extra protection I'll mix 15% boric acid (Timbor) in with the CuNap mixture.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Daburner87

After watching a lot of videos and reading many articles I think the best method for me is burning my timbers, and coating them with tung oil afterwards.  Then setting them in the ground with a gravel base and packed gravel all around to allow water to drain quickly.   The Japanese have been using this method forever it seems, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for me.   Thanks to all responses.
HM130Max Woodlander XL

Ianab

Traditionally the Japanese used Sugi wood (Japanese Cedar) which is a naturally durable wood to start with. more related to Redwood or Cypress. The burning process then extents that life even more. 

So start with whatever naturally durable species you have access too, although not all species react to the charring the same as sugi does. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: Daburner87 on August 06, 2022, 08:24:26 PM
After watching a lot of videos and reading many articles I think the best method for me is burning my timbers, and coating them with tung oil afterwards.  Then setting them in the ground with a gravel base and packed gravel all around to allow water to drain quickly.   The Japanese have been using this method forever it seems, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for me.   Thanks to all responses.
Have any of those videos came back 5 or 10 years later and showed how the process held up over time?  There are hundreds of videos showing how to char and oil wood but I have never seen one that showed how it holds up.  That makes me really doubt it works as well as some claim it does.

Daburner87

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on August 06, 2022, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Daburner87 on August 06, 2022, 08:24:26 PM
After watching a lot of videos and reading many articles I think the best method for me is burning my timbers, and coating them with tung oil afterwards.  Then setting them in the ground with a gravel base and packed gravel all around to allow water to drain quickly.   The Japanese have been using this method forever it seems, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for me.   Thanks to all responses.
Have any of those videos came back 5 or 10 years later and showed how the process held up over time?  There are hundreds of videos showing how to char and oil wood but I have never seen one that showed how it holds up.  That makes me really doubt it works as well as some claim it does.
I don't have definitive proof for putting the timbers in the ground, but for siding and such there are buildings that still look great after 100 years.  That's very impressive.  Here is an article you might like reading.
https://nakamotoforestry.com/a-tour-of-japans-historic-yakisugi/
HM130Max Woodlander XL

rusticretreater

I did a search for "Proof that charring timbers works" and didn't find any definitive videos or articles.  I did find one item from the Feds Dept of Forestry that said charring doesn't work well on posts that have checks as it is really difficult to get the charring into the bottom of the checks. Mostly endgrain. Then the wood checks further and bugs and fungus get in.
Woodland Mills HM130 Max w/ Lap siding upgrade
Kubota BX25
Wicked Grapple, Wicked Toothbar
Homemade Log Arch
Big Tex 17' trailer with Log Arch
Warn Winches 8000lb and 4000lb
Husqvarna 562xp
2,000,000th Forestry Forum Post

beenthere

Charring is "an old wive's tale" and one of those things that "feels good" but doesn't really have much effect in the long run. There are many owt's that get passed along. One is "let the logs season before sawing" and begets the question often asked here "how long to season the logs?". 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

And whether he likes it or not, I'm going to fill you in on why you should listen to beenthere. Take a trip to the U.S. Forest Products lab in Madison Wi where Kent retired from like I did one time, and you will find out he is a Rock star when it comes to the info we shake out of him on occasion. 
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Daburner87

I think there are a lot of variables for example how much charring on the wood, the species, thickness, location, base, rainfall, frost line, etc...

What will work for some might not work for others.

Again I'm not trying to discredit you but there are many upon many people using this method.  Eric Sloane's book Reverence For Wood mentions the same method.

Lots of information on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=charred+timber+posts


Again my usage is a 16x8 shed for all my lawn maintenance stuff, etc... possibly a motorcycle.  I'm not talking about a timber framed home or anything.  I do appreciate all the feedback, and I am going forward with it . Not sure if I'm going to use 6x6 or 8x8 yet, still planning.
HM130Max Woodlander XL

Joe Hillmann

What type off wood are you using?

Some woods like, white oak or cedar will last quite a while on there own, and charring and oil may buy you another couple years.

A wood like poplar will only last a year or two and charring MAY double that IF it works.  Even then you probably won't get 10 years out of before it rots off.


Do any of those youtube videos go into detail what wood and oil are traditional for this method.  Many people say this method is used in Japan going back thousands of years, but was it used for timbers used in ground contact?

Don P

I'd like to see something that supports that. Right now I'm hearing wishful thinking, which is fine but is certainly not much. I'm not seeing this commercially, green, cheap... they would be all over it. I'm not really seeing it as an inhospitable environment, quite the contrary. Read what happens on the charcoal in biochar, apparently it is a very welcoming site for microbes and bacteria. I do know that heat oxidizes and breaks down things like resins and extractives. On the face of things that doesn't sound positive. But thermally modified wood is apparently a good thing so what do I know.  For such an ancient method there must be more research besides the USFPL paper that debunks charring.

fluidpowerpro

What about using Borate rods inserted into the posts? I've read about and considered using a product called Bor8, but have no experience if it works.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Ianab

Quote from: fluidpowerpro on August 09, 2022, 12:10:15 AM
What about using Borate rods inserted into the posts? I've read about and considered using a product called Bor8, but have no experience if it works.
Borate is water soluble, so it tends to leach out of any wood that's exposed to water. That's why borate treated wood is only good for indoor use (it protects from bugs as long as it stays dry). It might do "some" good short term, but "proper" pressure treating uses copper etc and solvents, so the treatment is more resistant to water. 
I did read that something about the Sugi wood responding to the heat different to most woods. I wonder if the heat tends to "set" the natural preservatives, at least at the surface, and so keeps them in place better? So the effect may not be as good with different species. It would also need that natural durability to enhance. If you could increase the durability from say 15 years to 30, it would be useful. 
Climate would also have a big effect. Untreated pine here would grow mushrooms and fall over in ~six months. Making it last 12 months wouldn't be much use. In a dryer or colder climate it would last longer, but then you are still talking about maybe going from 2 years to 4 years?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Thank You Sponsors!