Board Foot Sawing Rate - Customers Logs

[jpassardi]

A customer has asked me to saw some logs for him.
Guys, I know this has come up before and I'm well aware there are MANY variables. I don't typically cut customers logs so I don't yet have an accurate handle on my cost to do so which is the ideal answer plus profit.
What is the approximate BF "going rate" to saw for a customer at my property?
What is the mobile milling BF rate?

If you would even provide a BF price range (low to high) that would be appreciated also. Thanks.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I keep up with all my sawing and currently my average BF/Hr rate for everything is 183.5 bf/hr. That is engine hours off the mill and does not include prep time and stacking lumber when working alone, etc. I have sawed a little over 250K bf and have 1370 hours on my mill.

 Your sawing speed should be similar as we have similar engine sizes but as mentioned there are many, many variables such as species, type lumber being cut, how well prepped are the logs, how good is the help, et.c You apparently don't have hydraulics so your loading and turning is likely going to take longer.

 Rates vary widely with the cost of the area and such. I am on the cheap side working in a low cost area and saw for $70/hr or $.35/bf plus mileage, band damage/replacement if I hit metal. The customer provides the labor for stacking and loading logs, etc.

 Until you are more comfortable with your speed and rate I'd suggest billing by the bf if possible. Track your sawing rates and develop a sawing rate from that. Looking at my bf rates usualy confirms my hourly rate would have been similar. I'd also suggest if you need another rate for prep work, delay, etc. make it more than your sawing rate to encourage the customer to take care of those issues himself. I only want to saw logs, not trim limbs or stack customer lumber, etc.

 Be clear in briefing your customer how your rates apply - when does hours rate start or stop, how much is mileage, how much is blade replacement for metal strikes, etc. Don't sell yourself short. You re providing a service they can't get elsewhere but you need to be compensated well for your time,. labor and equipment costs. Good luck.

[Patrick NC]

You are right about being a lot of variables. I normally charge $0.45 for most situations.  Short  logs or oversized are charged at $75 per hour. Same for extremely dirty logs. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'm mobile only. Sawing charge 40 cents/bf, for this customers must arrange and roll logs and handle lumber. I have a default rate of $90 an hour overall time on site to take care of things being slow either because of slow material handling or because of small/irregular logs. There is a separate charge for mileage, for damaged bands, and a minimum sawing charge which depends on distance.

[Percy]

All the above is great advice. Magicman had been doing this for many years so when he chimes in, pay attention 🤣

One thing I could add to the above, not to sound cynical, is when you saw by the board foot, some customers will bring you crappy logs thinking if you don't get much lumber, it's no skin off their nose. The way I overcame that was to use the big custom cutting mills price policy. The logs are scaled and the customer pays the sum agreed upon before the blade hits the wood.  Just something to ponder 

[Magicman]

Magicman had been doing this for many years so when he chimes in, pay attention 🤣

Actually I thought that this was being answered quite well without my input.  

There is no "one size fits all" answer.  I only saw portable at the customer's location and I am @.40 per bf and $115 per hour.  If I drive up and see crappy logs, my billing strategy may change.  I may not saw at the bf rate (only hourly) or I may charge .45 for the first Mbf or for the entire job.  I also have the option to leave but I have only done that once in 20+ years of sawing.

I am $2 per mile one way for the initial travel & setup and $1 per mile one way for each return trip.  Damaged blades are $45 each.

Generally speaking a new customer may have no idea what is entailed nor what to do.  I simply don't get hung up on "having" to make X amount of $$ on every job.  i.e. If I choose to saw a sticker log for no charge, that is my option and something that I will do if I see that in the end, it will speed the job up.  I don't charge for sawing stickers from flitches anyway.

[jpassardi]

Gentlemen, thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.

Howard, thanks for the detailed information.
Percy: I always pay attention to what the travlin' man has to say here. 

My problem is I get to sawing and focus on production and don't track it.

[WV Sawmiller]

Short  logs or oversized are charged at $75 per hour. Same for extremely dirty logs.

Patrick,

  On my website I tell folks I saw hourly for short (under 8' long) logs but the job I finished yesterday had a lot of 6' oak logs. The customer was going to build a 6' porch around a cabin he is building. I just charged him by the bf because he is a good, repeat customer and he kept the logs coming and we did not lose much production. Was all 5/4 and 8/4 cuts and on short stuff like that did go real fast and he kept the lumber moved and a new log waiting on the arms so it was good steady sawing.

   For a new, slow customer I'd likely have charged hourly.

[doc henderson]

I am a hobby guy, but not ashamed to take something for my time and equipment, depending on who it is.  If a friend, or friend of a good friend, or military or first responder it is less or nothing.  I often will state to someone who can afford it that i do not know, 100 bucks an hour and mention the blade cost if one is ruined.  Most offer that at the end, and one then even offered to pay for the dull blades cause it took three.  I declined as they were dull and not ruined.  had he been a pain in the axe, I might have taken it since his old slabs really went through the blades.  they can be sharpened, and the hourly rate did not stop as we changed the bands.   I often get a tip, and I always show the money to my wife so she knows I do not just give it all away, although much of it.

[Southside]

Do you show it to her or hand it over?  :D

[doc henderson]

yes.  if it is a check or she is low on cash and going to Wichita.  She deposits all the checks.  Mostly so she does not ask why I spent half a day helping someone I do not even know, and she has plenty for me to do!   :D :D :D

[esteadle]

You are right about being a lot of variables. I normally charge $0.45 for most situations.  Short  logs or oversized are charged at $75 per hour. Same for extremely dirty logs.

Hourly rates are the way to go when logs are unknown heritage and on remote property - which costs time and travel. Starting the clock from when leaving home site and until clearing out with final payment in hand, that makes good business sense.
 
Best of luck.

[SpikeInOregon]

An update from a previous post, different topic; and questions regarding sawing rates.  
I certainly appreciate this forum as a resource and the websites I visited of the members who have them & listing of prices for various services.  Pricing can certainly vary upon the customer with their wants and/or needs.  There are a few people in my area with mobile mills who do an hourly rate with a 3 hr minimum, blade issues and the standard items outlined here. One sawyer equates it to 40-55 cents depending on the logs.
My 15 mile radius circle, outside of NFS Lands, is rural with 1, 5, 10-larger acre lots and lots of lodgepole pine. If the tree is not twisted, it makes some pretty decent boards. ;)Sometime rural neighbors have lots that would look best if their neighbors had fences, ;) and part of my model is to work with a few 'kit home builders' who clear the home site, other building spaces, of all the timber and deck it to the side.  I have a couple of outlets for selling lumber and the customers through the home builders who may be short on cash.  The Woodmizer site has a How to Charge for Sawing Services and mentions a Share Basis option. 
I haven't found much on Trade / Share and what percentages may be and was wondering if others do so.  I can do job costing on each job with a fairly good dollar number and figure it into the percentage(s) but am curious to know what others may or may not do as well.


Mill Update: Long wait time* for the Woodmizer LT-35 but will take delivery on June 1st after training in the morning.  I have 2 log decks of pine and 1 deck of Juniper ready to cut and a neighbor who will want to trade has 3 decked pine stacks...
Thanks again for the great information from all!!

 *Partial delay due to house fire in January.

[azmtnman]

  Mostly so she does not ask why I spent half a day helping someone I do not even know, and she has plenty for me to do!   :D :D :D

But how often does she ask you to saw lumber?  :D :D :D
My wife would get a lot more of her Honeydo list done if it involved sawing!

[scsmith42]

Earlier today I dropped one of my wife's horse trailers off at a local RV service shop for refrigerator repair (warranty).  I noticed that their advertised labor rate is $199.00 per hour, with a 3 hour minimum.

I can't help but think that in today's economy, considering inflation, fuel prices, interest rates, sawmill purchase and operational costs, etc, that a lot of folks are undercharging for their services.

[fluidpowerpro]

I agree. Think about the shop rate when you get your car fixed, hire a bobcat with operator, plumber. Etc. Sometimes we are too bashful when we quote a rate. 
I think the only exception is when sawing commodity lumber like 2x4's and such. A customer will always compare what it would cost if they bought retail. For sawyers with higher end saws, that's probably not an issue but for lower end mills it can be. As often stated here, specialty and nitch product is much better, but at the end of the day, you need to saw what the customer wants.

[WV Sawmiller]

Spike,

   There are lots of threads here on sawing on shares. Yes, WM mentions it in their manual and it is a viable option but use it carefully and only if you have a market or need for the lumber. Most people recommend dividing the logs instead of the lumber. Your customer may want 4/4 sheeting but you need 8/4 framing. If you are not really careful on the  divide the customer will feel he was taken advantage of and give you a bad rep. When I have done it I'd tell the customer we'd divide the logs then flip a coin to see who get which stack. That helps make him divide them as fairly as possible because he does not know which stack he will get. Then when we agreed they were evenly divided I'd tell him, "Ok you pick which stack you want." Then he could not complain. I rarely do it largely because of the extra costs in mileage and work to transport the lumber back. Now I would tell them bring the logs here so I don't double handle or make multiple trips. The best advice is don't do it. Buy the logs if you want them and sell your services if he needs it.

   On minimum rates I charge $350 (1,000 pr 5 hours sawing) to move my mill. I have no minimum at home and will saw one log or resaw one beam for the a customer if they want.(Actually I rarely charge for a small resaw on planks or such and tell them keep me in mind when they need more work.)

[SpikeInOregon]

WV,

Excellent thoughts with the coin-flip and maybe just take logs. It may be worth an extra trip or more depending upon the type of deal we can put together.  I tend to think outside the box, look for win-win-win situations and try to be a step ahead.

I'm near Nation Forest Service Lands and when the wildfires become out of control, they have burned several homes in Oregon. Detroit Lake, Santiam, McKenzie, Cedar Creek and other fires north have burned homes and acreages.  Homes that were saved had trees and other vegetation cut back to prevent fire from reaching structures.
I'm on the east side of the Cascades where fire is also a hazard and having the fire safe distance for your home is encouraged.  My place had several large trees covering the house making the homeowners insurance more due to the fire hazard.  Cut 20 some trees 12" to 38" and insurance dropped by about 40%.

What I see is people will be happy to pay lower insurance rates when more trees are cut from their yards and having the home more fire safe.  My immediate area is still growing and people building or placing manufactured homes could easily pay the bill in savings.  Some lots are thick with trees and many have dead standing or dead tops and suspect to lightning.

So my Win-win-win is: Homeowner can get custom lumber from trees in their yard, house is more fire safe and insurance is less & I'll make some money, hopefully.

An excellent tip I found on your site was regarding blade damage and causes.  I can hear at least 5 places where people are shooting in their yards but never thought about bullets in a log.  Great Info!

[jpassardi]

Personally I wouldn't saw on shares unless it's a valuable species like Cherry or Walnut. The exception may be if I or a customer had an immediate need for their species.

As mentioned above, I can't help but question if even $0.5/BF isn't keeping up with the increased cost of literally everything the last couple years. I'm open to consider anyone's perspective though.

[Jwswan]

FYI, I'm in far northern WI.  I charge either .60/bdft (with a 250 bdft minimum), or 84.00/hour, with a one hour minimum, the latter is mostly for when someone has only a couple logs.  I don't do a lot of this kind of sawing, mostly I saw logs I've either harvested or bought for a specific market, but when folks do approach me to saw for them, I've never had anyone balk at the price.   Last night I squeezed a bunch of 1x stock out of some small to medium diameter pine for a really nice couple.  I ended up just charging the one hour minimum, and teased every bit I could out of their logs. The wife was excited to show me a photo of the standing tree and told me about how she was going to print it and hang it on the wall getting paneled by the boards I just cut.   Thy called me an "artist", which while flattering, isn't true.  As I told them, I'm just a reasonably competent wood butcher.  And I'm using an LT 40 super wide with the 38hp kohler and a JD 320e skid steer in terms of mill and support equipment.  

[Magicman]

Simply stated, I do not and will not saw on shares.  My business profile does not buy or sell anything and shares would put me in the wrong market.  I saw for $$

Since the great majority of my sawing is framing lumber I have to know the "store bought" cost and price my sawing accordingly.  Many times the customer is recovering downed/damaged trees which discounts them but even still, the customer has to get value for there dollars.

[WV Sawmiller]

Spike,

   If you plan on sawing yard trees be sure to have a blade fee agreement for the customer to pay for damaged blades as you are going to hit more metal. I have had customers ask me why I did not check the logs with a metal detector. I tell them "Because then I would be responsible for metal strikes, not you." Also it is time consuming and you can scan a log with negative results then saw several inches deeper and hit an old railroad spike that was too deep in the wood to show up when first scanned. I always keep metal strikes strictly in the customer responsibility category. He knows where the tree grew - I don't. 

   One reassurance - I have sawed into bullets several times with no damage to the blade. That soft lead often does not hurt your blade but one nail or screw will knock the set off every time even if it doesn't break off teeth.

[longtime lurker]

Earlier today I dropped one of my wife's horse trailers off at a local RV service shop for refrigerator repair (warranty).  I noticed that their advertised labor rate is $199.00 per hour, with a 3 hour minimum.

I can't help but think that in today's economy, considering inflation, fuel prices, interest rates, sawmill purchase and operational costs, etc, that a lot of folks are undercharging for their services.

I had a guy come in here the other day picking up his order and I'm looking at this little pile of lumber that's near enough to a thousand bucks thinking how the price has got ridiculously high, and how it's like double what I'd have got for the same pile at wholesale 2 year ago.
And I get talking with the guy when he gets here and I mention that yanno, seems a lot for a little and how I'm starting to feel guilty about my prices. And he looks right back at me and says I was no more expensive than anywhere else he could have got it, that the quality was better than any of the competition could guarantee and the lead time from order was faster as well.
All nice things to hear right, and then he hits me with the kicker: he's paying me a grand for timber that he's going to use for the next 40 years and that he'd just paid $15 for a burger that he ate between town and here. Prices have changed - why shouldn't mine.
Yanno it's smart to be aware of box store prices for what your customer wants sawn. But that doesn't mean you need to compete with them solely on price, there's also quality of product and quality of service to factor in.
Work out what it costs you to operate and charge accordingly. Once you know your running cost including wages charge that plus some, and if you're too expensive and not getting work at that rate then stop cutting: because sitting there just looking at sawmill is a nicer way of going backwards than running below cost is.
If you want to work cheap go see Walmart, they'd love to hear from you.

[SawyerTed]

What longtime lurker said is exactly what I've been thinking.  

Rates have to cover all costs plus profit.  

There's no harder way to go broke than setting rates at less than cost +.  Cost must include wages.  Don't fall into the trap that the "*" is wages.  

A young man down the road from me found that out the hard way. He set rates to beat his competitors but eventually sold his mill because he couldn't make any money. He essentially was "buying work" and it cost him to operate. 

[scsmith42]

We've had a lot of discussions about pricing over the years.  Here is a recap on my thoughts regarding it.

From what I've seen, the most common mistake that most millers make it not charging enough for their services.  Unless you are running a "non-profit" mill whose goal is to help everybody else, as a business owner your primary objective should be to provide a quality service, at a fair price, and at a reasonable profit for the business.  If you don't charge enough, unless you are independently wealthy or have other means of income in time your business will fail.  What is the saddest thing about this is if you have employees.  In essence your employees lose their job because you did not charge enough for your services.

When determining pricing, you need to take into account costs such as depreciation, insurance, both scheduled and unscheduled maintenance.

You should consider setting aside money for equipment replacement or upgrade.  Many millers used their "day job" to earn enough money to purchase their first mill.  Once you buy the mill and are in business are you making enough money with it to set aside funds to pay for it's replacement in three years without having to dig into your own pocket? If you're in business, you should be....

After your business pays all of it's costs, sets aside money for equipment replacement, pays you and the rest of your employees, there should still be a "business profit" left over in the bank account.

There are exceptions to this, primarily due to things beyond your control such as illness and standard economic swings that result in recessions and downturns every decade or so.  You need to earn enough during the good times to carry you through the lean times.

Personally I charge by the board foot if the job is routine, and by the hour if it is not (or if there is risk of extended time investment required).    If I beat my hourly charge by producing most economically by the Bd ft, then I'm rewarded for working smarter and harder.  That's what owning a small business is all about - not to mention being an avenue for "regular folks like us" to share in the American Dream and gain financial independence through our hard work and efforts to increase our productivity.

If I want to give the customer the opportunity to save money, then I'll offer them the chance to reduce my labor costs by off-bearing from  the sawmill, stacking and stickering their own lumber so I don't have to myself (or pay someone to do it), offbear from the jointer/planer, etc.  Then I can assign my helper a different task that generates income (such as running a different sawmill while I operate the first one with the customer offbearing), so everybody wins.  My income rate stays the same and my customer saves money if they want to enough to invest some of their own labor.

We used to have a highly respected contributor to the Forum named the Arkansawyer.  Arky was both a good 'ol boy as well as a degreed engineer, and one of the most innovative and knowledgeable sawyers that I have ever known of.  He worked 70 - 90 hours every week, milled a lot of lumber, and was quite vocal about how he could not understand why people would charge so much for milling, etc.  

Unfortunately, Arky went out of business around ten years ago when his bank called his loan and he was not generating enough EBITDA to be able to get another bank to loan him the operating funds needed to keep his business going.  One of the most talented, knowledgeable and hardest working sawyers that I know went belly up and his employees lost their jobs - basically because he did not charge enough for his labor and product.

Arky's problem was not having adequate business volume or supply of logs - his problem was not generating enough revenue to keep his doors open AND be able to retire his debt expeditiously.  If you can't service your debt because you don't have the business coming in - it's most likely a marketing or broader scale economic cause.  It's something else when you're running wide open yet not generating enough cash flow to pay the bills.

We lost a lot of milling creativity and knowledge when we lost Arky from the Forum.  I think of the lessons that I learned from him often when I reflect on pricing.

Profit is not a bad thing - it is a necessary thing if you wish to be independent and successful.