How is your lumber selling?

[Kelvin]

Man, either woodworkers really quit in the summer or michigan's economy is really tanking.  I know that its suppose to be depressed around here, and my cousin keeps saying we are going into a recession, but nobody is buying lumber here.  Not that they were flocking to the door before, but i'm starting to think about selling all the sawmill stuff again.  I can't sit on all this stuff, work so hard, and make so little without some idea that "word of mouth" is NOT getting around about what great lumber we have.  Man, the only market around here that wants our wood consistantly is the pallet guys who pay .35 a bd ft, though you have to even cut that bd ft in half for 1/2" slat tops and trim them to length, so i really they are paying about .20 a bd ft.  It seems i'm in a perfect storm in my hometown.  There is a giant veneer buyer taking all the premium stuff, so log prices are sky high.  Example= $3-$4 a bd ft for 25" white oak butt logs (yes in the log) and the local economy has tanked, if it ever was here. 

Boy i'd like to see all those piles of money that the sawmill manufactures have on their advertisements, makes me want to punch them when i see that.  They should say "Do you want to make less money than a dishwasher, and work twice as hard so you can be your own boss?"  This seems to be the actual market for someone with their own small mill.

I'm amazed at the pay schedule for sawmillers.  I've posted this before, but locally, to rent a ditch witch or a wood chipper you pay $60-$80 an hour on a daily rate.  As a knowledgeable, somewhat skilled sawmiller, i charge $50/hr and get less work than the woodchipper probably does.  I know that it takes time to establish clients, but man, i bought my sawmill about 4 years ago, and i have less work now than, then.  I'm sure this means i have to charge even less for my services to drum up the business, as word would be spreading if it seemed that i was a good bargin.  The last number of people who have seen some of my adds, or heard by word of mouth that i had furniture grade hardwood, have left without much, if anything purchased.  I constantly get these "looky loos"  They say "i'll buy more next time" after spending 2 hrs looking it over.  Never calling back.

I know this sounds like i'm personally in a funk, yet i've remained hopeful and am a good salesman when it comes to selling things in general.  I used to fix up houses for a living and made $20-$40 an hour with very limited capital investment other than the house purchase ($50k houses) and that was gone when sold.  I've spent about $80k on sawmilling equipment, always hoping the next piece of equipment would make me money.  LT-40 hydraulic mill, kubota loader tractor, crane truck and trailer, Nyle dry kiln, heavy shop equipment for processing, Barns.  All this depreciates and eats money in interest.  How much do you need to make a year to pay for it all?  Quite a bit more than the $9/hr dishwasher who has no overhead.  THe first quarter of this year i figured i made $8/hr sawmilling, and its gone downhill from there.
Its hard to figure when to call it quits.  I know i won't be able to pay off the equipment loans when i sell the stuff, so i will have to work to pay that back for awhile to start even.  Its a depressing thought to have to work so hard and not make headway.  Now i know what it  must be like for that "90% of resteraunts that don't make it the first 5 years".  Who would ever open a business like that.  Am i that dumb?

I guess i know quite a few local business people like me, who aren't making money here in central michigan.  A neighbor is a landscape architect, and says he worked the last season and only lost a few grand after equipment payments.  Can you imagine to work a whole year just to pay your loans and loose money?  I guess hes had a lot of seasons were he made quite a bit, and figures it evens out, but i don't like the idea.  I want to be the guy who loans money and makes it back no matter what.  Takes money to make money.  The rich stay rich and the poor get poorer right?  Now i see how that works.

Well, i wanted to post about how sawmilling sometimes goes, for people out there with that starry look in their eyes.  People like me who get into it without the right connections thinking quality workmanship and brute force can make you a market.  Its probably more about who you know than quality.  The only lumber i'm selling is going out of state through my internet sales.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with local crappy economy as well.

How is it with you guys out there?  Does this season seem particularly different than a few years ago?  I could wait if i thought it might get better, but i don't want to be oblivious to the signs that are hitting me in the head, saying "we don't care about local sawmilling, log recovery, craftsmanship"  Its hard not to be bitter about this and say "its just the economy"  The economy just ate up all the savings we had in home equity when we just sold our house.  I built a new house completly from scratch with my sawmill, hoping to reduce my debts so i can continue to loose money at sawmilling, but guess what?  The house i sold had lost 20% of its value from 3 years ago when i started my project, and the project didn't cost less either, so $50k slipped off the balance sheets, not in my favor, and i lost a lot of sweat equity i put into that house.  No ones fault, just the "economy"  I'm sure learning a lot of life lessons. 
Well, whats the word on the street?  How is the economy treating you guys?  Up?  Down?  Thanks for any input!
Kelvin

[WH_Conley]

Slower than a snail with the gout here to.

Most of the people here work out of county and are putting more money in the fuel tank, cuts into what they have to spend on 'extras'. Haven't sold but one cabin this year.

[Ron Wenrich]

From the commercial side, lumber sales are down and the prices have been depressed.  Remember how good hard maple was?  The market fell apart in the spring.  Remember how good red oak was?  That fell apart too.  Now its even getting into the veneer markets.  The only bright spot is walnut and white oak.

Our low grade continues to move well.  We're getting 36¢ for cants, without cutting them into boards.  I would suggest looking for a new market for low grade.  Ties are still moving well.

We don't cater to the local crowd.  It is too fickle of a market.  You have too much invested in high end lumber and there is too much of a chance for degrade.  Carrying costs will eat you up.  Then, you have to compete with the box stores that someone will pay a little extra, but make less trips.

If I was in your shoes, I would be looking at marketing to woodworking shops.  They are always looking for good quality wood and in smaller amounts.  You can afford to sell at a little lower price, because you are moving your money faster.  Its a niche that large mills have a hard time filling.

[bull]

Things are slow here also...  Remember you are in an agricultural occupation and need to learn to roll w the punches and diversify.... Lumber alone isn't going to keep you going. Sometimes you need to pickup parttime work to get you through... I don't know your area etc... but check out what other things people need.... bedding for animals and plants... organic fertilizer"wood ash", compost, bark mulch,firewood "bagged or bulk", bird houses and dog houses, arts and craft wood, tomatoe stakes,grade stakes etc,you can make more money from your sawmill waste that the actuaul lumber sales.  I went from sawing 200,000 bfd per year to 50,000 bfd per year and have made a hell of alot more money with less lumber. Customers are not allowed to sort thru piles they are given what they ask for from the top of the pile down, if they don't like something when the get home they have the right to return it for money back, " not happening with a $3.00 2x4..... tractor work.. $50.00 per hour, move pile of dirt or stone for neighbors 1 hr minimum, rotary mowing and on and on ...... don't give up in five SHORT years, take a look at the bigger picture, life is a roller coaster get on and enjoy the ride - we have all gotten a sour stomach on a roller coaster and may have even lost our lunch but we keep going..... Take a couple days and go into the city and then a couple days at the mill, don't forget you are your own boss and can stop and smell the roses or the manure pile at your own risk, without someone breathing down your back.... GOOD LUCK

[TexasTimbers]

My demand has not decreased other than the wet weather makes people think the sawmill is shutdown so walk-ins are fewer. But not for economy reasons here anyway.

Of course, it's a good thing because I can't get logs right now. And that's a good thing too because I have been working on the house more often.

[kderby]

Kelvin,

Your note got referenced to WOODWEB already.  Your question and discussion deserves both forums.  I am in a very similar position. 

I am really caught by the phrase, "from user to dealer."  I did start this process as a wood user and I am trying to become a wood dealer.  I think I am special as I have a very select species as a focus.  I also have twenty thousand board feet stored in a shed.  It is not selling!

I told my self that I would decide in July if "this" was going to work.  Well, here is July and I am still limping along.  I still see opportunity.  Sales are not supporting that vision. 

I want to be a job maker and not a job taker.  I have gotten the phone calls and seen others that want into this business.  I have watched them fall down.  I know others that have been in the business for several years and then they crash.  This is  a tough business!   I recommend the book The E-myth to any one daring to dream about a business.  Have you read it?

We are far distant in miles but on a similar path.  I hope your outcome is a positive one.

Cheers

Kendall

[Haytrader]

I have always thought "value added" was the way to make a small sawmill work.
Sawing for x amount per hour or bd. ft. never appealed to me.  Surely you didn't believe the manufacturers ads? People come and go in any business. It is a fact of life.
We are in the process of remodeling and old house that sits next to our home into a nice woodshop. I posted in another thread about when do you know it is time to quit the corporate job about my wife being close. Well, she surprised me and is going to do it and work in the shop full time. Granted, I can make the living, so she has no stress in makeing it work, but I am confident it will work or I wouldn't invest $20k getting this shop set up.
Maybe you could market your wood by building things also. And if hardwood is not what sells, try different woods. Try going to the Vo Tech schools and high schools and sell them lumber for thier projects. Take a couple days off and go look at what sells. Get out of the normal routine and sometimes you can see better. If that area is so bad, move. Contact that guy on the other forum and sell him some equipment. Reduce your debt. Trade something you don't want or need for something you need or want. I do it all the time. This week I traded an old truck, an old loader, a horse, and a stock trailer for a nice one ton truck.
Bottom line is.........if it ain't working, don't keep doing it. Change is the key word. Be willing to do things differently. If people want wood you have but have no money, ask them what they have to trade. Always trade for things on a low value, just like a car dealer does when you trade one in. Leave youself some profit.
Keep you chin up and you mind and eyes open.  Best of luck.

[gharlan]

but i don't want to be oblivious to the signs that are hitting me in the head, saying "we don't care about local sawmilling, log recovery, craftsmanship"     

Sorry for the frustration Kelvin but I think you may of hit the nail on the head with this statement. We seem to live in the Walmart era. We all want something for nothing, or to feel like we are getting "a deal". People do not seem to care about craftsmanship. They just want instant gratification
I have built houses for the last 27ish years. I have recently quit out of the same frustrations you are experiencing. In the custom homes everyone thinks everything should be included no matter what the allowance is. Its like a house is a buffet and it is all you want at one price. Keeping up with all the cost overruns and paperwork is a major job. And collecting is nearly impossible. With the specs I tended to be a perfectionist who loaded them to sell with extras. But if they sat a few months the bank made out quite well ,and do not even get me going on realtor fees. I get plenty of people that are having a house built that need to talk to me and ask questions. It usually seems they went with a builder whose bottom line was 30 to 50 thousand cheaper than say mine. But when they go and start looking for their selections they discover that they can not get anything for what is allowed. This generally cost them much more than my bid when finished. Yet these guys seem to be the ones that do the best.

I have come to believe that it is not hard work that will make it for you in business. You have to have the stomach to exploit any availability that you see. I guess it is the old saying it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

[Bibbyman]

Our custom sawing requests and local lumber sales have been slow for the last six months.  We're still getting orders from our regular customers.  And because we're having so much trouble getting logs,  we've only been able to keep our steady customers happy.   But we could saw twice as much as we have been. 

Traditionally, it's been slow in the summer months with the farmers working in the fields and others taking vacations.  Also, the heat keeps a lot of people from working on outdoor projects.

Fortunately,  we've been able to "ride it out".  In fact,  the slow down has given us time to take a short vacation and do some repair work on the house.

We've got with another logger last Friday and we have hopes of getting stocked up with logs.  (In fact, he just called and will be down Friday morning with a load.)

We sent a load of oak flooring lumber off Friday a week ago.  The prices are down but they graded the load fair and we got as good as we expected. 

We've got enough logs to start making ties and grade lumber again so we could keep as busy as we want or need to work.  It's kind of like eating baloney on white bread.  It'll keep you from starving.

Looks to me like there are people out there with money.  I keep seeing them go by with new 4x4 PU pulling boats, Skidoos, and other toys.  There is a lot of construction going on.

[Brad_S.]

Most of my income is derived from sawing others logs at their site. Typically in July, there is a 3 week backlog. Right now, I have one job booked for this whole month. I'm using the time to clean up the stray logs in the log yard and deal with things that have gone unattended for too long already. If GregS hadn't gone out and gotten a real job and handed me a nice little timberframe job he had backed up, things would look bleak indeed.
Also lost a tenant at my property, a dairy distributor who decided to fold up the tent and call it a day. Everyone else there is in "just hanging on" mode.

[woodbowl]

Things are slow here as well Kelvin. My custom sawing buisness takes a turn up and down and doesn't seem to have a pattern except when lumber prices get low and hurricanes strike. I've sold a little wood over the years, but for me it was more trouble than it was worth. People dropping by to buy a few boards wind up talking about everything except buying boards. I'm not a very good salesman I don't think. Actually, I just don't enjoy the game of gab. If they want to buy it, there it is and there's the price. Entering into the smiley additude and talking the ole' stuff to talk your price down is an insult to me.

There's probably more money in selling lumber for the small guy, but there is less hassle and equiptment involved in custom sawing. This is my 13th year at it and I work alone except for occasional help from the customer. I could probably make a little more if I got a bigger mill and hired help, but there is the hassle thing again, besides I sometimes run out or low on work. When that happens, there's just enough to keep my head above water.

On another note, like other years before, all of a sudden the calls will come pouring in and I'll have more work than I can get to. It's been a couple of years since I've seen that. Sometimes I get worried, but somehow things seem to work out.

[Captain]

We've got more material in the log yard than ever, and not a single order over 500BF all season.  Not to mention we are in week 4 of a "cease and desist" from the town.  Good thing there are a few outbuildings to build, it is paying the bills right now.  Being slow is really a pretty good thing for me right now with Paramedic School eating so much of my time.

Hang in there Kelvin, hopefully there are enough ideas here to get you going again!!

Captain

[Ed]

Kelvin, you aren't alone. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, he makes hardwood flooring and paneling with a little custom milling thrown in.
They have been very slow for several months now, only a few small orders.

Ed

[farmerdoug]

Kelvin,

I am so busy with plant season that the mill has been real quiet.  As you states the pallet places are always buying.

We are doing better than last year on plants so far because we have shifted products offered a little.  8) But the others dealers are slowly dying in the plant business here.  :(

So what the others are saying about looking for different outlets and products is very good.  Find that niche and you will wonder why you did not think of it earlier.

Goodluck hunting.

Farmerdoug

[metalspinner]

Not to mention we are in week 4 of a "cease and desist" from the town.

???

[ely]

i think a person has to sell according where they are located. here wher i am we have a circle mill down the road that sells 2x stuff and what they call bridge timbers for 32-36 cents a bdft. and that is what hurts me on price. i try and sell for 60 to 70 cents a bd ft . i really can't see how they sell the lumber for that. it would almost pay me to buy their timbers and resaw them into lumber.  the only saving grace for us small timers here is that mill will not cut less than 2x material.

then on the other end of the spectrum we have a bandmill over in town that is said to be cutting grade walnut and shipping it all to new york, making a mint in the process. all here say, i know, but it does make it tough to get work from folks thinking you are raking them over the coals. i saw logs for the pubic at .25 cents a bdft. or i will saw on the halvers most of the time.

then we have the folks over at the old chipper that are paying 50 bucks a ton for cedar and they make some product for the oil field service whatever. all i know is you can't get any cedar from anyone to saw up anymore. well that enough of my opinion.

[woodmills1]

Have seen a bit of a turn around in the pine market, pallet pine is lowere than ever but I got a few select pines into the concentration yard a week or so ago and they paid 440/thousand.  That translates to $66 for a 150 bd ft log.  Have had a mix of horse people, 2 farmers who built out buildings, 2 custom cuts and a few trailer/truck side customers,  I would say spring was a little slower than some years, but in no way the slowest. My regular dunnage and the barrel maker boosted my profits for the first half.
30,000 bd ft into the concentration yard with 2 large jobs comming up and around 13,000 cut on the mill.  this week was a little slow so built the top soil screen and now that the willow tree is gone I am redoing the backyard.

maybe you need to do some cold calls to farmers, horse people, or dunnage users

did you try to market moldings to smaller lumber yards?

[jpgreen]

Here in California business is down across the board in many types of areas. Everyone I know in business is eeking by- myself included.

The cost of fuel is killing this economy IMO.

There are fewer and fewer people who know how to build anything anymore, and don't care to. They couldn't even grow a tomato if they have to.  I see generations in this state that are dumb as a stump.

I've sunk ever penny I can scrape up into realestate (taking avantage of the dropping prices) in land that I am going to develope, and a fixer house all in mountain communities hoping the baby boomers coming that want to get out of the cities or have a vacation home will buy.  Many with their hefty 401k's are buying in remote parts of our state now.

Otherwise I'm screwed for the moment..  :D

[Captain]

Metalspinner, Essentially the story is short.  We've been operating ofr over 5 years.  My wife prompted a small property line dispute (she moved some rocks) that led to a complaint through our Zoning Board.  Just so happens that the neighbor in question is the head of the Zoning Board and an attorney to boot.  The local building inspector (who enforces the zoning) is making sure that his decision is reviewed by the town's attorney before ruling.  We have a 500 foot buffer through trees, and have a permit and pay excise taxes for our operation.  We also farm the property.

I certainly can't afford another piece of property to purchase or lease for our small time operation.  My sawmilling may be limited to road jobs and pesonal use at home as a result.

Captain

[TexasTimbers]

Kelvin I am not trying to make you feel worse here but I have always advised newcomers on this board not to take out equipment loans to get into the sawmilling business and you have provided a prime example. Not calling you a "newcomer" I am  saying I have always told newbies when they ask "What mill should I get" I have always said stuff like "One without a note payment" etc.. My past posts probably have half a dozen such admonitions, and I am making this satement here inyour thread not aimed at you, but so others who come behind will see it.  But for you, what to do now?
I have given your post alot of thought since I read it and made my quick post above. My advice probably won't be very popular amongst a sawmilling crowd but I sense you are approaching financial desperation. If you cannot maintain your payments without going to the poor house (losing everything) and suffering anxiety, my advice is to sell off all the equipment that will bring the most principal back, and maybe sell everything off down to the last handsaw that you do not need; except for the mill. Keep the mill if you think you want to take another stab at it later down the road. If not, sell it too. You can recover and get another one even though you don't feel like you could and even though you may not feel like you ever want to.
I bet there people on this forum who "sold out" and started over again years later.

If you "wait it out" you could be looking at repos and judgements before you can get the equipment sold. You don't want to have to sell your equipment for 0.20¢ on the dollar. If you wait until the last minute you could be faced with this just to try and salvage things. I say this because I think alot of the people giving you the advice to "hang in there" etc. mean well but probably do not have equipment payments to meet or if they do they aren't seeing your degree of negative cash flow.

I do not know the extent or your direness and I am not asking, I am just saying don't wait until the last minute to try and save the farm. Do whatever it takes to keep the roof, the electricity, the transportation, the 'losses" to a minimum, and your dignity. You can work through it but it might mean "taking a job" for a while. You are young. I have seen people "start over" in their 50s, 60s, and even 70s and that is no exaggeration.

I am not say give up without a fight. I just don't know how long you have already been fighting and it may be time to think of these alternatives. I hope you do not have to liquidate but if you do . . . chin up! The sun always rises!  8) 8) 8)

[Cedarman]

I am bucking the trend.  We are busier than ever.  We just shipped a load of cedar poles from Southern Oklahoma to Eastern Pa because the customer could not get them anywhere else and I had sold all my 2 and 3" poles.  I am thinking of raising prices some.

My thinking is that since I am in a niche marketing position and can sell lengths other than 8' that most mills won't carry long cedar logs.  I attribute this to my website also.  People cannot buy ERC in any box store other than the 5/16 T&G.

A friend in Ok City bought 2000 feet of cedar 4/4 x 4' for 60 cents per foot.  I am at $1.10.  It all involves marketing. 

Kelvin, I would do a lot of research into why you have lookers and why they are not buying.  When they are about to leave, ask them.  Say something like,  "I am doing a little research and wonder why you decided not to purchase at this time".  "Do I have what you require or is it a pricing thing?" (You might make up your own questions).  But I would want to know why I lost the sale.

Have you asked them,"Just exactly what are you looking for?" I answer that way when someone calls and asks "How much is your cedar lumber?"

As others have stated, if what you doing is not working, time to look at all alternatives.
Study your effieciency.  If you are slow, experiment with alternative ways of doing things. 

Just getting on here and venting and seeing how others respond can get your juices going.  If you ride this out it can give you "unfathomable character".

[oakiemac]

I don't know, but on this side of Michigan I'm on target for my yearly goals. I have had a lot of custom sawing -so much so that I had stump jumper come and cut about 11000bf for me.
Sales come and go but you have to ride out the slow season. This past winter was very slow but things picked up in April and havent' slowed down. Quarter sawn red and white oak are doing well and also rift sawn oak is selling good. Cherry always sells.

[Bibbyman]

Maybe you should consider a different mascot.  I don't know about people in Michigan, but down here people may not understand.   :

[jpgreen]

No offense Kelvin, but..  :D

[flip]

I read the topic and it occurred to me...we are supposed to be selling our lumber ??? ??? 
What I can add to this is not more than this.  I bought my mill and other "stuff" after I got divorced and sold my house, basically what was left over from 25 years of saving.  I have not paid myself back for my efforts but have been using some of the wood I've cut to do paying jobs, so now I'm getting into the furniture business to help pay the bills.  My 6:30-5:30 job pays my necessities and child support, if I need propane for the winter I have to saw or build.  By no means will one get rich in this game, for me it's a way to relax and create.  I have been running ads in the paper on a regular basis and get the occasional call to cut up the one or two half rotted ant infested logs.  I did get one here lately I quoted over $3000 to do but it was about 20 miles away in the middle of no where.  I told him to haul them here or sell what he cut, I have not heard back.  For most of us I think this NEEDS to be a hobby even though we see the mark up from tree to log to lumber most are not equipped to go big enough to see $$.  I've heard the saying several times, "to make a million in the lumber business, start with two". 

Can you scale back?  What can you sell off that is not critical to the mill itself?  Do you have some inventory that you can move quick and sell cheap?  Make the sale of the mill itself the last resort, sell everything else first and see where you stand.  I have an edger I bought with the mill, I had to put an engine on it and now it is sitting under a tarp and has been for the last year.  I sould probably sell it buuuuuuuuuut : you never know when that big job will come along that I may need it : :  Point is, can someone else sharpen your blades?  Sell off the sharpener and setter, there is a couple grand.  Can you edge on the mill?  Sell the edger if ya got one, again another couple grand.  Like others have said sell what you use least first and see where you are in a few months.

Flip

[jpgreen]

You're not in trouble where you would have to sell that beautiful house you built are you Kelvin?

If even in the sightest word yes SELL!!! Sell like Kevjay mentioned.  That's the way to do it.  I've done it many times. Infact I'm going to sell some guns etc., that are all prosperity time extras.  Hate to do it, but the fun is in finding them in the first place I think. 

My mom's advice has always been.. "KEEP what appreciates and makes you money and sell what doesn't".

Smart gal my mom..  ;D

[DanG]

Flip, I can't believe you turned down a $3000 job just because it was 20 miles away! ???

Kelvin, I just took a fresh look at your website and came up with a couple of ideas.  First, I would change out some of the pictures.  The winter scenes of lumber stacked outside with blocks all over it just don't look all that inviting.  Maybe your feature photos should be of nice boards displayed in a comfortable, convenient environment.  You might consider stocking some shorter material, and showing some of that on your site.  Keep in mind that most folks don't have a way to haul 16' boards, nor do most woodworkers need them.  Offer free cut-off service after the sale.  Take a lesson from the "Big Box" and offer some 2 and 4 foot boards,  s4s, and put that on the website.

On the custom sawing page, you are emphasizing all the bad news, and not selling yourself or your service.  You do have to cover yourself by letting the customer know the rules, but you don't want to overplay that in your advertising.  Consider changing your price structure to a board foot basis.  25¢ doesn't sound nearly as ominous as $60, but should net you about the same money.  Your page doesn't even mention that you do quality work and care about the product.  Frankly, I wouldn't even call you, based solely on that page.  I would call you based on what I already know about you, though.  Relying on word of mouth would be better than a bad ad, imho.

Keep the silly picture with the frog.  I love it!!  It show's me a fun guy that I'd like to meet.  I hope you make it to the piggy roast this year.

[TexasTimbers]

Maybe we should take a poll about the goofy avatar ??? I vote send it to the woodshed Kelvin and get a new one. I think Bibby is on to something. This could be your whole problem.

Don't listen to DanG it is no suprise he likes it, heck he is a golfer for crying out loud. :D DanGs suggestions about your website however are spot on.  8)

[metalspinner]

WARNING...OPINION ALERT!!

I like the look of your websight.  It is very nicely done.  Ditto on your policy page, though.  All of that info is usually in much finer print than what you have.

The page with the pics of your furniture needs some info.  Those are beautiful pieces.  Are they for sale?? If I wanted to buy them, but was ignorant of the style and species I would be left in the dark as to what you have.  That Shaker cherry dresser is stunning.  Not to mention the little end table.  If you can build stuff like that, you should forget about selling a few boards to the weekend warriors (like myself).  Those boards will put more money in your pocket in a piece of furniture than in the back of someone's pickup.

The fact that you saw and dry your own lumber then make furniture from it is very interesting to potential buyers.

[GF]

You may ask your customers where they heard about you from.  This way you will know if your website is providing the information, advertisements, or word of mouth.  This may give you an insight to which direction you need to look at on getting the word out about your services. 

[flip]

Dang,
I didn't really turn it down but for me to drive up to this guy's place twice every other weekend for 10,000/bf would take me about 3-4 months.  A lot of the stuff is junk that should be sold for pallet or small cants.  I tried to give him my best advice, told him to call a local buyer and take the money and buy his 2x4s.  He said he could haul some to me which would work great since I have all my support equip. here and set up how we need.  I hope he sold the stuff, he would have been $$ ahead for what I saw.  I feel we owe it to people to not only saw for them but to also advise them on best options, that is what I feel I did in this situation.  We have also sawn scrappola that we knew was ant and rot infested, I'm sure we all have.  I've decided at this point being in it for a few years now that, like others, my hobby will not turn into a significant source of income which is OK.  I have trouble now doing the day job, spending time with the GF, kids every other weekend, maintaing farm, and doing my thing.  It's difficult to balance all out sometimes.  
My main intent is to use my mill to saw out as much of a house as possible, along with furniture and what nots for the time being.  It's much more therapy than a business now  I'll keep running the blade until the money starts rolling in here at work :

[Radar67]

I have to agree that your page is well done and professional in appearance. I also agree with the others on the policy page. Another note, I checked out your lumber for sale on Ebay, are you selling much there? Some of the prices seem high ie the 15 inch wide walnut for almost $9 a board foot. Most hobby woodworkers are not going to spend that kind of money for wood. The lumber is nice, and some is hard to find, but I bet they find it much cheaper somewhere else.

IMO, to get those prices, you would have to use it in your own furniture.

Stew

[DanG]

Flip, I understand a bit better now.  At first, it seemed that you were carping about no business and turning down business, all in the same breath.  Talking a potential customer out of wasting his money is good business in my book.  That sort of thing can do wonders for your reputation.

We should keep in mind that Kelvin didn't really ask for our advice, he just asked us what we were doing.  What I am doing is, running a bunch of used, if not used up, equipment that I paid cash for.  I realize that this isn't the way for some people, but my operation is just a little part-time retirement gig that isn't being required to put beans on the table.  That being said, though, I think the single biggest cause of failure in new business is the debt caused by over-equipping with brand new machinery.  There is used stuff out there for pennies on the dollar, a lot of it almost new from new businesses that failed.

Kelvin, thanks for starting yet another thought provoking and discussion stimulating thread.  You seem to have a knack for that.    I think it is the way you open up and give us an honest view of what is going on.  I, for one, like that.  Word on the street is that others do too. ;)

BTW, keep the frog picture.  The only ones that don't like it are Kevjay and Bibbyman, and they ain't gonna buy anything, anyway! ;D :D :D :D

[jim king]

I am in a very fortunate position as we have found a great niche market for woods that used to be firewood.  Our woods are some of the most expensive in the world and we are having a hard time keeping up.  Nothing goes for construction but to the hobby market.  Our largest product is 4 foot long , each 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 inch board is packaged in shrink wrap.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Well last week we produced over 11,000 bdft and it was all sold.  This week we just worked 4 days and sawed close to 12,000 bdft of 2x pine and it is all sold.  Got orders out to Aug. and turn down work every day.  Just landed a contract with a walnut company to saw 5 to 8 mbdft a week for them into 4/4 and not sure how I am going to do all this with what I have to operate with.   I raised our sawing rate up to $250 mbdft for custom sawing.  Got about a weeks worth of custom sawing on the yard now.  All of the wholesale buyers have been in looking for more grade lumber, ties and cants but prices on grade are still low.  Banks will loan on equipment if I have 20% down but will not loan on buildings or capital to put more logs and lumber in inventory.  Getting in a bind.  Times are hard.

[JimBuis]

Arkansawyer,
Maybe you need a swingmiller from up Lampe, MO way to help you once in a while when you find yourself having to turn down too much work? ;) However, you might want to wait until he figures out where the gas cap is on his mill first. ;D

Jim

[TexasTimbers]

BTW, keep the frog picture. The only ones that don't like it are Kevjay and Bibbyman . . . .

We are the only ones who don't like it - who fessed up that we don't like it. There are others who won't give their honest opinion if it isn't popular have more sense than to admit it. ;)

But you are right he should not pay us no nevermind we ain't gonna buy nuttin.

[Kelvin]

Hey, thanks for all the input.  It does help to hear what is happening out there.  I still wonder if there is a woodworking cycle.  Do most hobbiests work in the winter time?  Seems to be the busiest time for internet sales by far.

Yeah, my website was made in 15 mins about 4 years ago and i haven't updated anything there since then.  Its all kinda crazy.  Should work on it a bit with some new photos and whatnot.  Though, i actually haven't had any one contact me through there, or i scare them all away.  Seems to be just word of mouth.  How would someone even find it on their own?  Don't know if this internet thing really works. 

We could advertise more for custom sawing.  I do believe this to be where all the majority of the money is to be made with this small type operation.  I just hate dealing with people in that situation.  Makes me nervous.  Being off site where i can't get things to work on my equipment.  Trying to get people to understand what a "pile" is, and what to expect from their logs.  Boy, most of the work is in babysitting the customers, but i guess it always is in service work.

Hey, my frog is cool.  What better photo could i have?  My wife thinks my hat is the part that scares people off.  i've had that hat for about 15 years and wear it everyday in the winter.  I hate having cold ears for some reason.

My internet pricing is pretty high, but that is just on the wood that i want to keep as "show" pieces in the store.  They can buy the rest, but i won't be able to replace them, and so i don't care if they don't sell.  Makes the customers think i'm higher calibre if i have a bunch of super expensive stuff.  Also, i hate to lower the prices just to sell in a down time, (which i think the summer is) when it should go back up in the winter.  Its like saving your corn, instead of selling it when all the other farmers are selling it.  Try to work the market to maximize the profit.  I'll hold some high end stuff till winter to see if it works.

As far as prices, and selling inventory, i can't give it away locally.  Here is a good expample.  I had sawn a 36" diameter Black cherry tree that was clear up to about 20'+  i had some clear 15" wide by 8' long boards.  I put an ad in the local paper for $1.50/bd ft. (costs about $50 for an ad!) and had 2-3 different people come out and look at the lumber.  They all said "Nope, i can get that cheaper some where else" and left.  Well, low and behold i sold the same lumber on the internet for $12 a bd ft in the end.  Now that is extreme, and i don't often have 15" cherry boards that are so nice, but the point is there.  Locally i can get about  1/10 of what people expect to pay in most parts of the country.  However, shipping is a real pain, and quantities are very limited.  I don't think i could sell any No. 2 and maybe not much No. 1 lumber.  I guess if it was about .25 a bd ft, maybe.  So, back to the pallet guys i guess.  I'll have to go down there and talk with those guys direct to make sure i'm getting the best price quotes i can.  maybe they have gone up in the last 2 years.  Hope.

I appreciate the compliment on the furniture shots.  I suppose they look better in photos than real life.  I would like to sell them, but it seems making furniture out of lumber devalues the lumber.  Those night stands i make have about $80 worth of lumber, take a couple of days to make 4 of them, and i can sell them for $100 each, maybe... if i got lucky.   I do wish i could be the guy who sells an end product, but we are back where we started with customer service.  If you are good with customers, you can just buy a shipping container of night stands from china and sell them as "shaker" made.  I've taken them to some shops in the area.  No interest.  I'm thinking about making antique replicas and selling them as if they were real.  I could bury them in the swamp and shoot them with a shotgun, and let my dogs gnaw on them.  I could act like a country bumpkin and walk into different antique shops and say "My grandpappy left me this here crappy table.  My relatives said it was an "antiquated" or something, but i needs my teeth fixed.  How much you give me?"  That type of thing.  I made a good knock off shaker tall case clock that if it were real would fetch $3k  Serves them right!  But, i'm to ethical for that.  Maybe i could find someone who isn't ethical to sell them for me....  Hmmmm....

Well, thanks guys, i do have a bunch of logs and lumber to monkey with at least.  My dad wants me to builld them a deck.  Now in spite of having 30k bd ft of lumber on hand, i've got nothing rot resisitant, so i have to go buy 350 sq ft of treated pine decking.  don't that beat all!
See ya,
kelvin

[Frickman]

I'm like Arky, busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest.  8) 8) Don't know when I'll get caught up. The wholesale markets aren't the best right now, so I haven't sold anything into them for a while. I work in a lot of different niche markets, and things have been good.

[Larry]

A couple of thoughts that may improve your eBay/off eBay sales.  You need an "About Me" page, which with careful wording will lead a buyer to your website and not violate any eBay rules.  You might also consider using a phrase in your description like "For additional questions email me at Kelvin@ravenfarmdotcom" which gives the buyer a clue that you have a web site.  Always include an advertisement when you ship wood to a successful bidder.  Always use the "alt" attribute on your pictures.  You can put info there for search engines to pick up which will not be visible to the buyer....even misspell words.

Do not be afraid to break eBay rules...I don't break any on purpose but have got in trouble by accident.  The penalty is a warning from eBay too not do it again, and they will pull the auction.

There are some quite sophisticated market research tools, which can tell you what is selling, who is selling it, what the price has been, time of day/year, and a host of other answers.  I think most are fee based but some give you a free trial period.

Think of eBay as the best advertisement for your wood business that money can buy and not as a true source of income.  The off eBay sales are where the profit resides...at least in the wood business.  You might consider putting one item on say at 1 cent...Wal-Mart does it...something about a loss leader and it seems to work for them.  At least it will generate a lot of traffic to your auction...maybe a nice big linky to your other auctions in your write up.  Who knows...some of my 1-cent auctions have been big sellers.

If you are taking the time to sell on eBay you better, also be selling on craigslist.  It is free and has more potential to generate repeat buyers than eBay.  Pick an active craigslist even if it is in a town 400 miles away.

And I like your frog also...would like him even more in my skillet. ;D ;D

[jim king]

Larry:

You just wrote my history without knowing.  I had many false starts sending wood to small unknown buyers that all had an excuse not to pay.  Then I got going on ebay and started participating on several woodworkers sites posting photos. 

The ebay sales thankfully were 100 % positive and the comments on the woodworkers sites were all great .  With this as a backup I started talking to big buyers as I had a track record to prove the saleability and acceptance of our products and it worked perfrctly.

The road was long and not smooth but we got there and the future looks even better.  The only problem is that now my wife and I are old enough to collect our pensions and retire but I am working harder than ever in my life and having more fun than ever.  Somebody made us backwords, it should be the other way around that one when we are young we have the money we need to spend properly with all that energy and then about 30 go to work.

[DanG]

Kelvin, you got 30 thousand board feet on hand?  If that's the case, you ain't broke!  That should be enough to spark the interest of some larger potential customers, such as furniture factories and large millwork shops, if you can get the word out to them.

I like Larry's ideas about using Ebay, etc to advertise your own website.  Your site is attractive in the way it is constructed, so all you need to do is update the pics and wording on it.  Then do whatever you have to to get people to look at it.  Make your site a friendly place to visit, but also have it create the perception that your operation is professional.  For instance, your old crane truck is a great piece of equipment, and a lot of us would love to have one like it, but its appearance doesn't make it a good advertising tool.  Every picture and every word on your site sends a message of some sort.  That truck sends the message that "this guy is running a backwoods operation so I should be able to get his stuff on the cheap. ;D"  Your Woodmizer, on the other hand, looks great.  If you feature it, and anything else that looks new and expensive, the first impression is, "This guy has invested in some serious equipment!  He must be making a good product to afford all of that."  You say you have some nice shop equipment, but I don't see any pics of it on your page.  Get some on there, and it wouldn't hurt if there was some drop-dead gorgeous crown molding somewhere in the pic, just to hint that you can come up with something like that.

I was getting the impression that you were located out in the boonies, maybe up near the UP, so I looked up Bath on the map and found you right there in Lansing.  I guarantee there is a market there, so you just gotta find it and tap into it.

[WIwoodworker]

Hi Kelvin...Your question could be asked in about any business. I believe people are willing to pay for quality.

In my day job I sell electronics. People don't even flinch at spending $1500 to $5000 for a television. $500 to $1500 for a camera. The same could be said for people buying SUV's and trucks and sports cars. Vacation homes...blah blah blah.

The money is out there and there are people willing to spend it. The trick is getting them to spend their money with you.

There are always people who are looking for a bargain and from the sounds of things those are the people you're attracting with your marketing. Every buying group can be profitable if you put some thought into it. And with some specific marketing you can attract customers that want to spend their money.

If there is a cycle to the lumber business in your area you might consider creating your own cycle to spend on marketing. Ask yourself a few questions...

1) How many phone calls/mailings or personal visits did I make to my past customers this week to see what they were up to and what wood needs they might have in the next 30 to 90 days? If you haven't created that list of customers I would start today.

2) How many new potential clients did I contact this week to offer my products/services? That could be in the form of a phone call, a mailing, a personal visit. If you don't have a list of potential new clients I would start making one today.

3) What's message/image am I projecting to clients? If you're targeting people who appreciate quality woodworking and quality lumber then every message to the public should reflect that. Drop anything that detracts from that message.

Hope that's helpful. Good luck and btw...if you're selling 15" walnut for $1.50bf again let me know. I'd buy that in a second.

Allen

[Firebass]

Again all this forum information is good.  Well maybe not all,  but it's all good in the sense that you are not alone in a business that has slow times from time to time.  All business's have them.  So plan on it.  As much as you do the prosperous times.

Here's something that works well for me when things get slow.

Simply make ten potential contacts.  If that doesn't work make 10 more.  More times than not I get loaded up with more work than I can handle about 2 weeks after making these contacts.  Sell yourself.  Then work hard to back it up.

Steve

[solidwoods]

Kelvin
my suggest:
Wood fired water heater
kiln
moulder (from IRS auctions $10k)

work and $ yes.
I switched to this direction and am doing very good.
The kiln has low overhead because it runs on mill scraps.
The heater also heats the shop and house.
The moulder can sell flooring from low grade logs, moulding from 8' clear rips, etc.

I sell "your logs into flooring $1.25 sq'"  and it does good.

also look for free classifieds in your state,  use 3x5 advertisement cards on every bulletin board you can find (even the employee break room at home improvement places)

jim

[metalspinner]

I still wonder if there is a woodworking cycle.  Do most hobbiests work in the winter time?

Kelvin,
Business is notoriously slow in the summertime at the local Woodcraft store.  The owner's guess is that the hobbist woodworker is busy with outdoor chores taking him out of the woodshop.

[solidwoods]

I like making outdoor furniture with my below grades also.
The items sell very well.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=0

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=1

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=2

[Kelvin]

Some more great ideas.  I like the one...

"I make flooring from your logs at $1.25 bd ft." 

This sounds like a good idea, as a lot of people i talk with have no need for lumber per se, but everyone wants hardwood flooring.  It does take a bit to turn it around though, but now all i need is to borrow $10k and i can finally start making money!  Uh, oh!  My wife might kill me if i suggest it.  I have been looking at auctions and just missed a nice functiional 2x6 4 head molder for $1,500!  Darn, though i'd have to build a new barn, pour concrete, put in the electrical to handle the additional motors.  Hmmmm....

Thanks for all the time spent.  Good to hear people are making money with their setups.  Maybe there is a certain minimum needed for making money?  Boy, to run all this equipment and store all the lumber i would need to rent out and old factory building.

Talk with you later,
Kelvin

[Ron Wenrich]

We've had a couple of the larger mills go into this niche market.  Its worked out pretty well for them.  A small guy would be even better.

I helped to put a guy in the business about 20 years ago.  He buys standing timber, and uses a circle mill to cut his lumber.  He started out cutting firewood, then progressed to the mill.  He first started making pallets and found that it was hard work for little return.

He then put in some kilns and bought a moulder.  He now makes flooring, molding, doors, and windows.  He works primarily the custom market.  His volume is about 30 Mbf/month and its strictly a father and son show.  Its worked out rather well.

10K would go a long way in used equipment.  A lot depends on what you need to get started. 

[Bibbyman]

Our business is full of nitches.   8)

[crtreedude]

Our local market is very strong - sometimes too strong. It is hard to find good wood here. Hard to cut it legally with all permits, hard to have reliable people. We are doing well but it has been a learning curve.

So much is about finding a good market and going with it. In October I get to focus on wood since our son is coming down to take over my office work.  8)

[MikeH]

 I am in same boat as you Kevin, I over doubled the size of my house, added  a 2nd floor and a garage with room above and only hired out the carpeting. Took most all of the equity with a big gleam in my eye and bought the biggest saw woodmizer makes and a host of other equiment. I am just a rookie into my second year and have a full time job in construction to pay the bills. I just spent my last money on a logosol molder for flooring. If that dont work I'll be looking for a trailer court to park my saw in becuase the house goes first! I hope my wife doesn't see this! I guess I will just make it work with help from above.
  I can not foresee making it on sawing alone for awile yet! Some try, some fail, the ones who made it are still here to tell you about it, the others are long gone! 

[Cedarman]

Kelvin, stick your toe in the flooring market by, drying some wood, ripping it into blanks ready for the moulder, preplane if necessary.  Now find someone with a moulder and pay them to make the flooring.  Maybe get someone to try a batch. Keep tabs of your time and expense preparing the wood.  This will give you an idea of whether to head in that direction before buying a moulder.
Our moulder and planer are very good profit centers.

[jpgreen]

I just spent my last money on a logosol molder for flooring. If that dont work I'll be looking for a trailer court to park my saw in becuase the house goes first! I hope my wife doesn't see this! I guess I will just make it work with help from above.

KEEP your house!..  ;)

I once heard a guy bout' 15 years older than me say he was broke from buying equipment all of his life.

That statement struck a note and scared me...   It's real easy for guys like us to do, so I buy used- rebuild, and buy real estate.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  It sounds like a good deal.  Really! it does.  Now why in the world would Cedarman tell a man to just stick his toe in a really good deal instead of jumping in whole hog.  Just drop another $10 grand and we are in a good deal for sure.

   $1.25 sq ft for hardwood flooring.    Sawing cost is $0.20 bdft, drying cost $0.15 bdft, machining cost $0.30 bdft, and OH! yea I paid $0.35 bdft for the log.  Tally is $1.00 bdft for my effort.  Now I just need a place to keep it till some one comes along and buys it.  But in every log there is wood that is not fit for flooring.  Do I really want to use all that FAS for flooring?  Can I get enough and keep it on hand to fill the orders?
  Mills like Treat Wood Products make good money doing flooring because they know the market.  He makes his flooring from his 2C and 3B lumber.  He sells his upper grades green and then the cores as ties and 4x6's.  It is his mid market woods that he dries and truns into flooring and comes out ahead.  But for the 20,000 ft of flooring he makes every week he saws 120,000 ft of logs.

  But it really sounds like a good Plan.

[woodmills1]

Like my farmer neighbor says................  Ifin it was easy everyone would be doin it. :D :D :D

[TexasTimbers]

I like the kind of deal I made today. A guy came wandering throught the yard and said he needed some cedar. I had him I was too busy to get to it this week but he kept on. So finally I said "I will sell you the logs at 1.25BF on the cedar scale, then you can hire me to cut your logs straight thru for .25BF that's the only way I'll have time. He said it sounded like a great deal to him.
He picked out some logs, then some more, then some more. I am officially out of cedar 'cept for the few I have to use on our house.
Some sawyers will probably say I am charging too much. But it's like Kelvin said, we sawyers don't get paid enough. I am doing my part to raise the pay scale. $1.50BF for straight thru cuts "U-haul all" ain't a bad deal. I can afford to take some time and whack out a couple thousand BF for him at that price.

[MikeH]

 Way to go Kevjay 8) 8) 8) I like the idea of turn your logs to flooring for $2.25 a sqft. maybe even thats to low :-\