Any one out there replaced the 353 with a different diesel motor like a cummins/ or other style engine, 20 years since I ran a 353 and I am wondering if I can get use to the noise, Ran deere and cummins before. Thoughts.
Used to be money in doing conversions to Cummins from Detroit. It became popular after the major mfgs switched in the late 80s and early 90s. Never heard of anyone wanting to go back.
I should have done it when my 353 puked but couldnt tie up the machine any longer. Doesnt look like an extremely hard swap. I would go 4.5 Powertech personally. :D
Peter you would need a different converter for the cummins, i checked into it. the duetz would have to be a 5 cylinder and will be to long. i opted to fix the detroit and get good ear muffs.
20 years ago I swapped out a 4-53T Detroit for a 6BT Cummins in a Clark 667 grapple skidder. It was a fair amount of work and did all the fabrication myself to make it fit but it was well worth it. Transformed the skidder into a totally different machine. Instead of stomping the throttle to the floor to get it to go you had to just crack it above idle and it was pulling, the difference was like nite and day. I would highly recommend making the swap, you'll have a totally different machine
I like the Deutz. A 5 cylinder Deutz is around 97 HP and sips fuel and has great lugging ability. Not to mention starting real good in cold weather. They are even a fairly quiet engine even with a straight through exhaust. If my Ford diesel ever goes up I will have a 4 cylinder Deutz which is around 78 HP, which would be good power for a C4. The biggest thing with a Deutz is to keep the cooling fins clean. Also there are not many people who will or can work on them....at least around here. The good thing is they don't seem to need much work.
Forgot to mention, Have a Clark, and a 208 timberjack, Anyone done swap overs on ether one.
stick with the detriot
Quote from: stoneeaglefarm on May 14, 2015, 08:04:26 AM
Forgot to mention, Have a Clark, and a 208 timberjack, Anyone done swap overs on ether one.
Guy I haul for put a deere motor in his older 225, not a big deal!
I put a 6 cylinder deutz in a 1980 Clark and it went in easily, the motor is long but without the rad there is plenty of room. It matched up to the machine nicely, it pulled well and I ran it for 5 years without any troubles.
It was a 664 C, I forgot to mention.
I have had a duetz 5 cylinder in a 225A Jack and it was a great motor but expensive to fix when you had to do jugs, etc. The bosch injection pump aint cheap either. I'd stick with the Detroit and make a muffler/ baffle system.
I agree the Bosch pumps are pretty pricey, but don't think the engine parts are that bad. You can buy the after market kit for $ 250 per whole or $ 350
- 400 for the original parts.
David-L I think you and I have something common, but we are just wired different. :D :D
Our franklin 132 forwarder was converted to a JD 4.5 power tech. Would love to do the same to the 230 e skidder but probably never happen.
What all did you have to convert on your clark skidder deastmen to make the cummins work. I have a old 667 myself with the 4-53 Detroit
When I was surveying and doing lots of lay-out for homes, roads and utilities we worked
almost exclusively for one Earthworks contractor. They had Detroit powered pans, loud and thirsty devils
but they ran all day without issue. The shop mechanic pulled the oldest pan from the fleet and did a Cummins
conversion to it. Fuel cost dropped about 50% and you could actually have a conversation on site.
Operators quickly learned that was the machine to have.
Detroits are dandy and certainly worth keeping, the magic is to find a way to quiet them down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20727/quiet.jpg)
DGDrls
I do know it can be done, we have a 353, load and cranky. a freind has the same skidder only its got a cummins . comes through the woods and all you can hear is the brush popping and cracking.
My first skidder was a 1979 230 Timberjack ,great little skidder,but after a few years i got tired of listening to the Detroit, i bought a 1986 tree farmer C6D long frame 6 cylinder Deutz and 24.5 x 32 rubber!!! pull half again as much wood with half the noise!!!
My 230 is currently under repair as you can see in my post . I have the 3-53 out and also wondered about changing over to something else with equal torque and H.P. but for now I'll put up with the noise . My buddy has a 240 3-53 with a turbo and it sounds quit like a cummins in the bush and pulls real good . When I was a kid the guy I worked for had a 200 gas , it failed and we extended the frame to fit a 6 cyl int. gas . It pulled real good but could never keep gas in it .
ive heard of ppl pulling the 453 out and dropping in a cummins i was really woundering if the bell houseing are diff. my clark has a 3 speed power shift
Quote from: stihlboy32 on August 07, 2015, 04:59:19 AM
What all did you have to convert on your clark skidder deastmen to make the cummins work. I have a old 667 myself with the 4-53 Detroit
I think the bellhousing had to be changed and the motor mounts had to be fabricated. I also built a new intake pipe from the engine to the air filter using aluminum pipe and elbows and welding the joints. It really wasnt that bad to make the switch but it was well worth it, totally different skidder when I was done
I used to run a 207TJ that had been converted over to a perkins. That thing was so quiet half the time I would forget to put my ear muffs down. I'm looking to get rid of my 230 right now because of the Detroit. It's a great motor but I can't stand the noise anymore.
I let a friend borrow my 230 forwarder for a bit to cut a long skid job, he hadn't been around a 353 in a long time, after about 4-5hrs in the cab you want to put your head under a wheel. A 4.5 powertec deere would be my choice, nothing wrong with a 4BT, just prefer the deere parts and I think they live longer with proper care.
Put a turbo on it and a bigger muffler. It'll be as quiet as a cummins. If you have the time money and know how to do a swap then you should be able to upgrade your Detroit to a silver clone. (Way easier and cheaper).If your going to do all the work a swap takes then inframe the 353 put 18:1 trunked pistons n50
Injectors and a Green turbo. get the head gone over. All readily available. $2-2500 done. Get a Detroit guy to set your rack or you'll waste your money
Quote from: ga jones on August 14, 2015, 03:25:46 PM
Put a turbo on it and a bigger muffler. It'll be as quiet as a cummins. If you have the time money and know how to do a swap then you should be able to upgrade your Detroit to a silver clone. (Way easier and cheaper).If your going to do all the work a swap takes then inframe the 353 put 18:1 trunked pistons n50
Injectors and a Green turbo. get the head gone over. All readily available. $2-2500 done. Get a Detroit guy to set your rack or you'll waste your money
It's called "load it on the trailer and let it be someone else's noise maker", kind of solution. Forwarder is a tough sell around here without a dozer bunching that's why I haven't chased a 6 wheeler. Mine gets used about 2x a yr. Kind of on the bottom of the list for replacement right now. Swenton's in lake George did my engine 3yrs ago, and it runs well but if I can avoid sinking 1 dime into the machine I will between now and upgrade.
I here ya barge monkey. I know u spent a lot of money rebuilding your 353. My advice about turbocharging is for the guys wanting to spend lots of money swapping
Once upon a time a long time ago in Skidder world , Timberjack put John Deere engines in some of their there skidders, then John Deere got serious in the logging business and no more Deere engines in Timberjacks !!!! They were a good combo at the time ;D A good friend of mine told me this years ago ,he was service manager for Timberland machines, the dealer for Timberjack and Bombardier track skidders, for many years .
me personally I don't like DEERE. I've worked on them own a Deere winch on my treefarmer. Worked on many Deere backhoes.300 400. 540a skidders. Deere engines are noisy. expensive to fix. The only timberjacks I've ever seen with Deere engines were when Deere bought out timberjack and shut down the line and all the jobs.Just my thoughts.....
Clark or Allied winch, Timberjack skidder, and John Deere engine, or cat 3304T engine ,theres lots of combos that would work great! Detroit engines are off the list! 3 H.P and 53 leaks !! cheap to rebuild, but three times as many parts and about a 3000 hr engine , plus on small lots with houses around no one wants to hear them !!! Been there and done that,many years ago !!!! I think the most fun i had logging when i was a kid in the 60,s was a 310 case crawler with a winch . ;D ;D
I'd argue the point about Deere diesels being loud. They are some of the quietest engines I have worked around.
The new 6.8 in our 644K is so quiet you wonder if it's actually running if the radio is on. We had a 644A that would drive you out of the cab with the turbo whistle, I think alot of it was engine generation dependent. The day that I don't have to touch or hear a 2 stroke will be a good one, have 2x 671 gen's and Emd-12-645E6 main engines on this new tug, try sleeping over that noise. 4bt-6bt aren't to loud, and most 6.8's I hear aren't bad, but I can hear my 353 5-6 miles from home on a clear day. We have 1 lister engine left on a stacker, now that's a good sounding engine. :D
You guys might be laughing, but when I am working in the woods, I wear my hard hat all the time with the ear muffs down and just crank up the radio a
bit when I am in the cab. Works great.
I know, a 353 is a different story. ;D
There is one thing I want to reiterate. A 353 with a turbo and a mild rack setting is as quiet as a cummins or an older Deere engine. I will make a video of a 353t in a 350 timber jack this week and post it.
Quote from: ga jones on August 16, 2015, 03:34:54 PM
There is one thing I want to reiterate. A 353 with a turbo and a mild rack setting is as quiet as a cummins or an older Deere engine. I will make a video of a 353t in a 350 timber jack this week and post it.
we had a franklin once with a 4-53 turbo, dad would sneak up on me with it, all i heard was limbs cracking. all this talk of not liking detroits.......at one time i said it too but now that iv had other engines, they are no worse than any other.
Thanks for the info guys ill stick with that old 453 for i think im going to try and upgrade to a dozer with the forestry pack on it
Stirring up an old thread here, working on a Franklin 105 with a 353, the engine is locked up solid, so the plan is to pull out the 353 install either a 353, a 353T, a 3.9 cummins, or a Deere 4039T
A used 353 or cummins will cost $3500, and the hydraulic pumps mount to the 3.9 cummins on the side, but i own a 3.9 liter Deere Engine, my question is how to mount the two hydraulic pumps to the Deere engine, that are on the back of the Detroit. Second is the 4039T enough power for a 105, and does the converter need to be changed for stall speed?
I have a 1978 TJ230E with a 3.9L 4B Cummins (no turbo / not a BT). It was in the machine when I bought it. I think it had a 4BT before me (hood was modified to fit the turbo). Before that I assume it had a Detriot? Or is it possible it came from the factory with a Cummins? Anyway, I can take pictures of anything and post, just ask. I actually find this Cummins loud when it holds back on the down hill or when you really open it up. Very bass sound. I was down a few days last winter with virtego when I figure the sound shuck something loose in my inner ear. I put a muffler on this fall and it sounds exact same to me (it was straight pipe before). I wear ear plugs, good ear muffs and still feel a little numb at the end of the day.
Mountain.
Turbos really quiet things down.
If youve got a straight through ag style muffler on it, try an automotive type muffler that reflects the gas flow back upon itself. Reflective waves are what cancel sounds. A frequency bounced back at itself will zero out.
Mike, I do have a straight through muffler. I will try your suggestion. I was afraid a more baffled muffler may plug up on a diesel. I was not aware of the sounds waves cancelling concept. Learn something new every day as they say ;D. Thanks again.
On the conversion ... I do find the non turbo 4B a little underpowered for the 230. But it is good on fuel. I can work about 8 machine hours on about 5 gallons (imperial). Working by myself so fair bit of idling time. I think the 4B is rated around 70 HP and the 4BT around 90? The 4B is fine for me as I am not working in a high production environment.
Mountain
It depends on what the 4B came out of. In Case skid loaders they were 50-60hp depending on year and application.
I have a 240A timberjack it came with the 453 it now has a 4bt cummins with a it pulls great and is much quieter and I can run it all day n half of another day on a tank of fuel. Biggest thing to check is the bell housing I just made a cardboard template of the Detroit I took out and took it with me when I was looking for a new motor. As long as you can match that everything else can be done fairly easy I only had to change the linkage for the fuel pedal an oval out the exhaust hole in the hood everything else worked fine. It may depend on how old your machine is . Mine is a 91 model I don't know if a older one would be as easy or not.
Homemade muffler silencer for the 540A (thanks to tantoy) in Forestry and Logging (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82668.msg1261078#msg1261078)
Here is a muffler silencer topic, works like a charm
Thanks Teakwood. Nice fabrication! I could work that concept into my current roof plate.
Mountain
Here's a pict of a truck muffler on my 4-53 the long pipe on the roof is angled down a little towards the back of cab. I also park the skidder on a little up hill slope so rain can't go to far into the pipe without draining right back out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10257/IMG_0324.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1508271483)
Big oil filters have some nice perforated baffle material inside, free for the pilfering.
Good to know, Mike. I am not sure if one can buy that perforated pipe anywhere or would one need to buy a new muffler and dissemble? I am having trouble finding a 3 inch muffler with the reverse flow perforations. Most seem to have V-shaped deflectors so I imagine they would not cut the sound to the same degree. Teakwood, where did you find the perforated pipe?
Mountain.
Not sure, Oil filter is only place ive ever found it.
You can buy stamped perforated sheet and roll it i guess.
Roll your own😂
Ok, back to the conversion conversation, will my 4039 Deere engine work in my 105 Franklin, mounting the pumps seems like the big issue.
The John Deere parts catalogue throws up ten sections for the 4039. (for combines(india), gensets, tractors, excavators, marine(boats) etc.
So you would need to look on the engine tag to see what exactly you have.
The larger Euro & waterloo, us? tractors with that engine? had the hydraulic pump drive in the back diff. Smaller tractor in the top front of the engine or front right?
4039 marine engine, auxiliary drive.
John Deere Parts Catalog (https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/64176/referrer/navigation/pgId/816866)
Euro tractor 5300N, 5400N, 5500N (hydraulic pump into front top of engine)3029 and 4039 etc
John Deere Parts Catalog (https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/navigation/equipment/62697/level/2/snp/OTIyOTQ1OkNIQVBURVJbMTEyOTojQlVTSU5FU1NfUkVHSU9OLDQxMDg6I0NBVEFMT0csNjI2OTc6RVFVSVBNRU5UXQ) (diagram showing position of hydraulic pump)
John Deere Parts Catalog (https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/62697/referrer/navigation/pgId/1167306) (hydraulic pump fastening)
US John deere tractor 5500 (4039 engine) - hydraulic pump position etc.
OMER360033: 5300, 5400 and 5500 Tractors, Block File: MX_LMIP_EA2_19_24JUL95.htm (http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMER360033_19/MX_LMIP_EA2_19_24JUL95_1.htm)
Doesn't specially state hydraulic pumps on front right of engine for 5500 tractor(4039)
John Deere Parts Catalog (https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/navigation/equipment/77992/level/2/snp/MTgyNzE3OkNIQVBURVJbMTEyOTojQlVTSU5FU1NfUkVHSU9OLDMyMzU6I0NBVEFMT0csNzc5OTI6RVFVSVBNRU5UXQ)
Quote from: Mountain_d on January 19, 2019, 07:07:22 AMTeakwood, where did you find the perforated pipe? Mountain.
I did it myself with a drill and bit