first update of manual mill pics.... had 2 1/2'' tubing as sliders on my rails but decided to change them for Teflon rollers instead.. as i had to back up the engine and add a 12'' shaft and two pillow blocks and didn't want to bother with doing a balancing act with the head assembly.(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201207_182218.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607381655)
cranking is smooth with the rollers even at 1 1/4 '' of lift per revolution 8)
popcorn_smiley
Hi Vautour
The shaft that the head lifting cable is wrapping on gives it a good lifting ratio, but that cable will likely start fraying soon because of the small diameter it is wrapping around on. Just a heads up to keep a watch for.
Ray
i have cable around a 1 inch shaft picking up a very heavy head unit been on there 26 years no problem yet
Vautour, Keep us posted on your build, and more photos are always good, a new build is always interesting. Always like to see different ideas/ ways to make a mill work.
Ummm, what happened to mill 1? I never saw a completion. Can you get more detail on the lift setup. is that crank on a worm gear so it stays in place? Does it have a physical lock?
checking my alignment... looks good(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201208_183202.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607468983)
i made my own belt pulley by cutting out the lips of one wheel and welding them together and welding the to my space dummy wheel... no need of a shaft and pillow block. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201208_162357.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607469038)
the pulley is 15'' and the wheels are around 20''.. the bearings are Toyota rear bearings.... (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201208_162336.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607469135)
keyed my shaft and installed my pillow block today.. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201208_183106.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607469186)
@Crusarius.. was thinking of using this plate with bolts going all around the disc at the precise location and using a springed lever like the chisel im holding and have different bolt pattern for different thickness, and that lever would slide horizontally to those different bolt pattern...still in the early stages haha
@Crusarius... saw mill #1 is just on the back burner till next fall... i figured i'd be sawing wood faster by building a smaller mill than finishing up a fully electric/hydraulic one.. one reason was also to build one as cheap as possible using all my scrap steel and auto parts to keep the price down and keep the price tag below $500.
@RAYAR ... i see that your blade guides are just bearing and would like more info on them.. as far as i can see there is a shaft going thru them with a tapped bolt at the end,what size shaft and bearing are they and how do you like them ??
Vatour, I thought about something like that but just using a #40 sprocket. that way each tooth is a certain distance. if you set it up right 1 tooth will = 1/16 or 1/8"
but I really like your idea of having a slide bar with different patterns.
The only thing with that is you may have to raise you head then lower to get the lock to release. I guess since its manual it won't matter but with my wheelchair motor it would not be as nice.
One could weld a sprocket to the cable drum of a boatwinch to get a fixed height cranker. Or cut teeth into the peripheral face of that big plate for a spring loaded parking pawl. Sorta like my winch brake below. The finer the teeth the better the resolution.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0610201503.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1591824488)
Or put a friction brake on it for infinite resolution with a big tape measure wheel on a thumbscrew for zero-ing at present cut height. A caddy rear caliper with a cable parking brake lever could work. Weld plates to the brake pad backing until you can clamp that circle plate.
A streetbike or atv/sxs hydraulic caliper might clamp it perfect if you find a lever with a parking lockout. Honda 250sx.. King quad 300.. Maybe 400ex? idk.
actually you could go even cheaper and use a mountain bike / street bike rotor / caliper. They come in 2 flavors. Hydraulic and cable pull.
I think that plate is too thick for mtb caliper unless he ditches the pads.
he has skillz :) I bet he can ad a spacer to the TMB caliper and make it work :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201209_180956.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607556015)
Welded my bolts to hold my bearing assembly today.. try to finish up the tension and adjustment rigamajigs tomorrow...... tks for the input guys..all these feature are good and i taught them out.... the disc with cuts in them as Mike posted was my first idea and still thinkering with but would need a flat plate around the edge so one could have 6 different pattern to go from 2'' to 1/2''... the caliper is also a good idea for braking but need to use the tape bar for proper measurements and human error becomes a factor,.. the disc method that i mentioned does have flaws.. the bolt patterns closest to the center gets a hole lot heavier and may have premature failure... so maybe the the first idea is the way to go.... whichever i do, i don't want to have to look at the tape measurement to cut a bunch of 1/2'' boards that's my goal....
How will you manage to do thin skim cuts like 1/8 to 1/4 inch for flattening a dry slab or whatever?
I think youll find infinite adjustment with a sliding rule or counter wheel works better than a rigid indexer.
Quote from: Vautour on December 09, 2020, 07:01:03 PMi don't want to have to look at the tape measurement to cut a bunch of 1/2'' boards that's my goal....
That is why I made the log scale that I did. if I want to cut a bunch of 1" boards I start on one line and keep going. Problem is changing thicknesses as I cut was challenging. at least till I added the second adjustable pointer.
I do need to update my thread with the updated log scale.
Quote from: Vautour on December 09, 2020, 03:59:35 AM
@RAYAR ... i see that your blade guides are just bearing and would like more info on them.. as far as i can see there is a shaft going thru them with a tapped bolt at the end,what size shaft and bearing are they and how do you like them ??
Here is a link to the bearing info on this set-up:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=111879.msg1753280#msg1753280
These are metric bearings and are the perfect width set-up for 1-1/4" bands. The ID of these bearings is 25mm. They stack on a shaft and are held in place with a bolt and flat washer. This shaft is welded into a square tube that is inserted into another square tube with adjustment bolts and lock nuts for alignment purposes.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190626_152539.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1598586549)
Tks for the link Ray... and don't eat all that birthday cake to yerself ya hear..
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201210_171512.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607640765)
Decided to just go with the bracket to the sprocket method....got 29 teeth on the sprocket and with a 1'' shaft each teeth amounts to 1/8''sooo 8clicks = 1'' boards minus the kerf (15/16''board)... maybe a 30 or 31 teeth sprocket would be 1''plus the kerf??...my disc brainstorming would not work because one revolution =1 1/4'' lift...the math doesn't add up... back to the drawing table pc_smiley
Mine runs about an inch per revolution of the hand crank. Very quick and fast to make adjustments. It uses about a 12" pulley with a snug fitting belt and a spring tensioned brake. Never seems to creep out of adjustment. I still just have a standard aluminum inch scale rule in 16th's. I can adjust to 64th's if I want.
vatour, you probably forgot to factor in the diameter of the cable. that will make a difference. Especially since that looks like pretty healthy cable.
Got my hydraulic tension assembly installed... 2000 psi on the gauge...Ram,gauge, and bolt = $50.00 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201218_182832.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608335707)
The bolt is an interesting idea. Where did you get the ram and gauge? What are you using to push it?
oooh, closer looks shows the nut as a stop. thats a kool idea. Still need somthing on the slidey part though.
Quote from: Crusarius on December 19, 2020, 09:54:52 AM
The bolt is an interesting idea. Where did you get the ram and gauge? What are you using to push it?
oooh, closer looks shows the nut as a stop. thats a kool idea. Still need somthing on the slidey part though.
The parts are from our cheap china parts place called Princess Auto... equivalent to your Harbor Freight in the US.. as far as the sliding goes and when everything is greased and having the ram closest to the wheel should make it slide ok,..time will tell if the sliding tubing cause a dragging effect and give a false reading on the gauge.
By the way
Crusarius... how was the snow storm in your area??
I was having a binding issue with my tension box. I rebuilt it, making it 1/4" bigger. I ordered some 1/8" uhmw as a test trial and it will slip off the beam with ease. I will next attempt 1/6" sheets, adhering the sheets to the saw beam frame and the tension box, hoping the adhesion compound will help take up the wee bit of slop, yet still provide for a very slippery surface
I found the math to be not as simple as youd hope. Better to forget it altogether, borrow a tension gauge or clip some verniers to your band and set your reference on your ram gauge like that. If it was all in alignment with the centre of pressures it might be calculated but there is a large torque on the sleeve of unknown magnitude, and there is a lever between the ram and wheel bearing effectively.
I had to more than double what I'd worked out I needed, once I got a strain gauge on it
I also have a home built mill and it looks a lot like yours on the lift. If you want more increments on your clicker style lift system. Then put a pulley on the bottom of the cable and run it back to the top. It will double line it and will lift a lot easier as you keep adding iron. Thats what I did to mine. Just a suggestion. Nice job tho. I have cut and welded on mine so much it doesnt look good at all. But it sure cuts lumber.
Quote from: JoshNZ on December 19, 2020, 02:05:01 PM
I found the math to be not as simple as youd hope. Better to forget it altogether, borrow a tension gauge or clip some verniers to your band and set your reference on your ram gauge like that. If it was all in alignment with the centre of pressures it might be calculated but there is a large torque on the sleeve of unknown magnitude, and there is a lever between the ram and wheel bearing effectively.
I had to more than double what I'd worked out I needed, once I got a strain gauge on it
I too had to do the math with a 12" digital caliper and some extension metal to get me out to 36". For the recommended strain of 25-30,000 psi on the tensionmeter, it worked out to 3300psi and almost 4000 lbs of force and i was as close to center as i could get. I wasnt tracked yet, but i did bring the bottom of the gullet even with the face of both wheels, to ensure i didnt take the set out
Tks for the Good pointers guys....adding rollers on the far tubing might make for smooth sliding...hmm
Quote from: Vautour on December 19, 2020, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: Crusarius on December 19, 2020, 09:54:52 AM
The bolt is an interesting idea. Where did you get the ram and gauge? What are you using to push it?
oooh, closer looks shows the nut as a stop. thats a kool idea. Still need somthing on the slidey part though.
The parts are from our cheap china parts place called Princess Auto... equivalent to your Harbor Freight in the US.. as far as the sliding goes and when everything is greased and having the ram closest to the wheel should make it slide ok,..time will tell if the sliding tubing cause a dragging effect and give a false reading on the gauge.
By the way Crusarius... how was the snow storm in your area??
not nearly enough. I still made it to work :( Still have about 6" give or take. Plow worked perfectly.
Got my rollers done up.... i kinda like the idea of just using rollers without having the need of machining those grooved sleeves like most people have...bearings are 6205's 1''ID and 2''OD... and one could easily put 3''OD... RAYRAY has them on his mill. having a couple of bearings in your back pocket while on a job site and it takes about a 1min and 30sec to change em..hmm not bad... your thoughts??
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201226_165422.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609021007)
Quote from: Vautour on December 26, 2020, 05:17:34 PM
Got my rollers done up.... i kinda like the idea of just using rollers without having the need of machining those grooved sleeves like most people have...bearings are 6205's 1''ID and 2''OD... and one could easily put 3''OD... RAYRAY has them on his mill. having a couple of bearings in your back pocket while on a job site and it takes about a 1min and 30sec to change em..hmm not bad... your thoughts??
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201226_165422.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609021007)
Hey Vautour, where's the 6305 bearing? It goes on the shaft first, it acts as the back-stop for the blade, then the two 6205 bearings. The two 6205 bearings stacked together are the proper width for the 1-1/4" blades. I did a little research on bearing sizes and these ones were the only ones adequate for the 1-1/4" blades.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20180803_123250~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1598550112)
@RAYAR . i was gonna add that 6305 but princess didn't have them on stock so i was gonna drop in at Fundy Bearing and pick up a couple on my way out of town but completely forgot... anyways i decided to add a horizontal bearing as the back stop for the blade as a lot of You Tuber's have done it this way... more work but less friction on the blade when it is backed up against it...
you know, its funny. I kept looking at the guides I got from Linn Lumber. All they are is a machined roller with a bearing pressed inside. I never thought about just using the bearings straight. I can't tell you how many times I looked at rayars build and never even realized it. Something that size would be very easy to place in an adjustable arm to.
Thanks guys :) I love other ppl's builds. it helps with ideas.
Yeah but that wheel increases the OD. With the blade running at a constant surface speed, the bearing RPM is lower than going right on the bearing so they should last that % longer. Plus a bigger OD spreads the curvature over more blade area so it should be kinder to band life too.
Quote from: Vautour on December 27, 2020, 07:46:07 AM
@RAYAR . i was gonna add that 6305 but princess didn't have them on stock so i was gonna drop in at Fundy Bearing and pick up a couple on my way out of town but completely forgot... anyways i decided to add a horizontal bearing as the back stop for the blade as a lot of You Tuber's have done it this way... more work but less friction on the blade when it is backed up against it...
I picked up my 6205 spare bearings at PAL too, but I didn't find the 6305 there either. Almost don't need it now, I've increased my blade tension slightly and the blade very seldom contacts the back (6305) bearing any more, even when starting to get dull, so not much friction happening there.
Quote from: Crusarius on December 27, 2020, 11:01:03 AM
you know, its funny. I never thought about just using the bearings straight. I can't tell you how many times I looked at rayars build and never even realized it. Something that size would be very easy to place in an adjustable arm to.
Thanks guys :) I love other ppl's builds. it helps with ideas.
It's not my build, but it's a sweet set-up none the less. The one thing I find is that the wider flat surfaces on the bearings gets packed with a thin layer of sawdust, but easily cleaned off by carefully running something across the surface while the blade is turning them at idle.
I need to install a scraper with a very slight clearance to keep the sawdust from passing under the guard that's there now. There's probably close to a 1/8" gap there now.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 27, 2020, 12:35:30 PM
Yeah but that wheel increases the OD. With the blade running at a constant surface speed, the bearing RPM is lower than going right on the bearing so they should last that % longer. Plus a bigger OD spreads the curvature over more blade area so it should be kinder to band life too.
I thought of this also and researched for a larger set, but didn't find anything that would work for the 1-1/4" bands with this type of set-up. I'd have to use a horizontal back bearing to be able to use a larger diameter blade support bearing as they get thicker with larger diameter. So far, no issues using this size bearing with approximately a 1/4" blade deflection.
Note: the pic in reply #18 appears to have the blade de-tentioned because you can notice the deflection of the blade at the blade support bearings when tentioned.
Tks for the info RAYRAR... knowing that you were running strait bearing and not having a problem confirms that it's not a bad idea and practically a DIY project which anybody with a welder and a grinder can make...
Quote from: Vautour on December 27, 2020, 06:35:00 PM
Tks for the info RAYRAR... knowing that you were running strait bearing and not having a problem confirms that it's not a bad idea and practically a DIY project which anybody with a welder and a grinder can make...
It's such a simple and easy set-up and it works great. Blade support and back-stop bearings stacked on one common shaft, it doesn't get much easier than that. It's also a very solid set-up.
Keep it simple and solid.
Have you seen this yet? https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=113365.msg1781737#msg1781737
Quite some interesting ideas. It also has the stacked 6205/6305 bearing set-up.
Interesting but but how many times do you leave the logs half way in the wood that you need a log hauler for a job :-\?? with time this would become cumbersome...i'll give him an "A" for craftsmanship and a "D"for the ideal.. (my opinion)... but i did like the song with the children singing...@ RAYAR.. yes he has the rollers idea just like yours and the adjustment is a great idea and about as simple as it get too.
that is definitely pretty kool idea. I have not seen that one till today. Thanks for linking.
Got my roller guilds done today... seems to work just great for now. got 6 roller bearings on the 2'' tub that slides and got a short eccentric shaft on top attached to the lever to bind the sliding assembly with roller guild at the desired location.. shortest distance between the rollers is about 16''
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201231_164930.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609451219)
i think this method gives a solid roller system because it cannot got upwards compared to the other method, my 1.5'' tubing is fixed on one end and has a 4way adjustment on the other end and really solid at the most crucial location when the log has been squared up and cutting your desired lumber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20201231_165338.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609452058)
That is looking pretty sweet. I have just been playing with AutoCAD for my design. I think I finally have something I like.
are you band wheels going in front of the frame or inside it? I kept bouncing around on which way was better. I think I decided with the feature creep that wheels in front of the frame makes the most sense. At least for this version.
@Crusarius the wheels are hanging in the front yes
wow. ya look at the picture and ya answer your own question. Thanks though. I am a little slow :)
That is sorta how the guides on kalamazoo metal cutting horizontal bandsaws works. I think youve got a good idea there. Kalamazoo was among the best for a long time.
Installed a different handle for my roller guild adjustment today.. hand brake lever with locking mechanism from my Echo... mike_belben.. had to google what kind of animal a Kalamazoo was :D... yeah its about the same set up ... they have a lock nut type locking set up which is fine for that machine but i'd rather not go in front of a running blade to do adjustment.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210102_110817.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609628812)
Yeah theyre a set it and leave it clamp but theyre affixed from up high like yours. Not normal in wood bandsaws but normal in metal cutting.
I like your E brake toggle lever. Looks like a de-sta-co clamp.
lever for my engaging my band wheels.. lever up is disengages. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210105_105503.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610057323)
and down is engage... its has a pass TDC lock system (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210105_105523.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610057359)
My question is?? what size fuel tank should i put on my mill with a 32hp engine for lets say 4 hour work without fueling??
If it's a manual mill and you spend all your time loading and turning logs like me, a 20L tote would do for 4hours I'd say, fill it to the brim and get 24L in there ahha. Go a bit more 30L if you're fabricating it
I just use 5 gallon cans that I swap. makes life easy not having to stand on the mill and hope for no wind to refill a tank.
I had done the same, I drilled a hole in the cap that was a bit smaller than the gas line and pulled the line through, so when it was time to add gas it was just a matter of unscrewing the cap and pulling the hose out to replace in the full can. These were the older style cans that had a separate vent cap I learned the hard way not to completely close the vent. When the fuel heats up in the sun it creates a lot of pressure and leaked past the carb needle and filled the crankcase with gas so if using the unvented cans I would add a second piece of line in the cap for a vent.
I also added a fuel shutoff right where it enters the can. So when I need to change I just shut the valve and only lose the fuel in the pickup line. no need to re-prime the engine. Works pretty slick.
When I am done sawing I shut the valve and no issues.
@Crusarius was just checking your mill and your fuel tank rides with the head all the way down making it easy for tank changing... i could,t believe you were changing a 5 gallons fuel tank if it was stationary at the very top :D...gonna use a 2 gallon tank for now see how that works, also mine will be sitting on the top part of the carriage like JoshNZ's mills for gravity reasons. there was a post a few months ago about "how do you fuel your mill" .. and will just use a small pump to fuel up.
the 22hp predator has built in fuel pump that actually does a very good job of sucking the fuel up. Takes a bit when the line is empty but will still pull a draft and fill the line to start the engine.
I like being able to just change the tank. Especially since all the stupid safety cans now make it miserable to refill anything. its not much more to add a tray right to the carriage and then you do not have to worry about separate pump and long hose exposed to the elements.
I have a question about your tensioner Vautour, I was trying to figure out if you are using the hydraulic cylinder to apply pressure and the bolt as a slack adjuster or are you using the bolt to apply tension and the hydraulic cylinder and gauge to measure the amount of pressure applied?
I can't see a pump or hoses I bet it's the latter.
My tank is just a boat tank with a plain old OMC fitting (or one like it). When I'm done sawing for the day I give the tank a shake if it feels too low to do another session I pull the plug and throw it in the back of the truck, and fill it when it suits at a fuel station. Never lose prime never spill a drop. Its easy enough to lift up there and slide in to its tray.
The predator pumps are awesome too yeah +1. They're a diaphragm pump driven by crank pressure it'll pull 6ft of empty hose in seconds, I remember being impressed when I was playing around with clear tubing while setting up.
yup Hilltop366 it is the latter, .. the ram is only there for the pressure gauge,.. the large nut is welded to sliding adjusting part and the ram is attached on the head.... finally got a chance to start up my engine today with my temporary fuel tank, the fist time i started it, it didn't have a muffler and i had it hanging from a chain, so everything is bolted and wired up for a trial...the carburetor is from the engine i took out my 70's hough loader which was a 100hp.. people were saying it probably wouldn't work but i had the engine idling pretty good and this carb has a pump and gives it a snort of fuel when accelerating to a higher RPM, i was quite Happy, and hopefully it works in the long run.(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210109_175520.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610233150)
Decided to add a power feed since i had all the parts.. Always liked the idea of using a simple cable around a drum, but at the moment my cable drops off the drum (anticipated) so i'm thinking adding Teflon guides on each side just before it wraps around the drum, or lips on the drum itself... i think the guides would be better. worst case scenario, i've got a chain and sprocket for it. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210112_175718.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610489519)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210112_173508.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610489550)
It must just be that the cable isn't tracking over the drum right surely. Can't add shims to the motor/drum assembly to raise up the outboard end of the drum slightly?
I think what is happening is the cable is moving across the drum as if it was following a thread. What if the drum had a shallow "U" so the cable would always keep slipping to the bottom of the shallow "U" groove as the drum turns.
Tried a few tings this morning and nothing worked,going around a drum a few turns seems to follow a imaginary tread as RAYAR mentioned.. so i added this Teflon with a small v grove and works good. it's powerful enough and i think i'll add to add a drag board.. shouls have my speed control by next week.. total cost about $100 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210113_105816.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610562925)
thinking about adding a wheel chair motor for raising and lowering my head assembly...got a 60,a 28, and a 10 tooth sprocket to play with...if the electric brake is hooked up when power is applied, it should brake on a dime without any overshoot...i think...(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210114_184553.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610666169)
Decide to go the RAYAR method and add a third bearing to my guides (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210114_184710.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610665832)
That blade guide support is looking good.
With the acme rod I took my brake off. the brake is normally closed (spring loaded) when power is applied it releases. My brake did not work very good, the motor was able to power through it.
Hopefully yours will be better than mine was.
Did a trial run today... wheel chair motor ratio is 24:1 , small sprocket has 10 teeth, the larger sprocket has 29 teeth...sooo motor has no problem lifting the head assembly and i clocked it at 8sec per foot so i'm quite happy with that,the brake is holding real good...eventually i'll set up a "Mike Festiva"using a micro switch and notched out rulers system for adjustments. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210115_163222~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610745536)
Made a permanent bracket for my wheel chair motor this morning and once i had it installed i did a test using 24 volts instead of 12 volts,.so for raising my head assembly my 12 volt gave me 8 sec per foot and my 24 volt gave 3 sec per foot :o... a 24 volt one wire GM alternator at the local parts place is $100.00... (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210116_121139~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610815492)
You can get 24v from a 12v system by putting the two batteries in series with a pushbutton in between them, i did it for fast hare scramble starts on a race quad.
It will take a reversing contactor downstream after both batteries. You charge the second battery independantly and yes it will draw down but its still faster than a single 12v battery. You just need to make sure the 2nd one is deep cycle so it doesnt die from big discharges. The good part is youll have 2 batteries for paralleling when a 12v cold start is needed.
I can draw the circuit if it im not explaining it well.. If it interests you anyway.
@ mike ... i was thinking of using 24 volts for my travel also, but your idea would work in revers to get 12 volt for my engine starter.. tks.
I would love to see the diagram. not that I want more batteries but curious about trying it on my mill.
Vautour do you know what your head weighs? I'm using a wheelchair motor to lift my mill head and have never been happy with the lift speed. I've only got a 19hp diesel so I would guess my head weighs less than yours but I'm only running it on 12v. Also using acme rod for lift. But Im no where near 8 sec per foot.
@ JRWoodchuck... haven't got a clue what my head weights,.. at least 250lbs to 300lbs, if you read my reply#71 i'm down to 3sec per foot and the motor doesn't seem to grunt at all, 24 volt will double your speed as i found out on my trials on this, changing your sprockets will give you more speed, the options are there.
If you guys are running 24v motors on 12v power sources you are woefully under utilising the motors potential, it will only produce something like 1/4 of its rated power, if you do the math it makes sense.
If you've got a 500watt motor it's worth matching the power source with the rated voltage, or vice versa whatever is easier. And then gearing for speed from there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0118211006_Film3-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610986711)
[Edit] New sketch.. I made a few too many mistakes on the first one.
The alligator leads are just chopped jumper cables for you to plug it into the other battery while milling .. And youve got to remember plus plus minus minus or bad juju. You cant push the button while in charge mode either, more bad juju. Id mount the clips to a piece of wood when not in charge mode. Amazon sells stupid cheap bright multicolored LCD volt displays that will help you remember when the deep cycle is getting low.
You flip the toggle to up or down, and hold the momentary button to make it go. The 2nd battery is in series with the first and you get 24v to the toggle which controls the switching contactor. Thats just a relay that can swap terminals internally. But your motor needs to have individual positive and negative wires. It cant use the chassis for the negative circuit.
When not raising the head, chomp the jumpers to your primary battery in parallel so it charges.
@ JoshNZ I am no electrical engineer but if you look in the industries many application switch from AC to DC for the reason of reducing motor speed like tread mills which are probably half of capacity most of the time and the same thing with wheel chairs, so i believe DC motor can handle the reduced voltage.
Yeah it can handle it no problem I was only getting at the loss in power. My 24v motor didn't cut it running on 12v I ended up swapping it out
@JoshNZ . at the very first i had used tread mill motors which was rated for 90volts and running them at 12 and 24 volts, and like you say the power drops considerably, so keeping motor close to factory specs is best for max hp.
Dayton makes 110vac varispeed reversible controllers for 90vdc motors. And have for probably 40 gears so there should be some on ebay.
Penta-drive is another brand i have used. Nema4x/ IP-65
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bought a wheel chair today for $40 for the motors and a few sprockets, i've always preferred the chain roller for it's speed compared to other systems... i might have to add a third smaller sprocket because the speed using 12 volts was one revolution per second and will be way faster on 24 volts, the actuator in the pic is waaay too slow to bring it upright so i'll use a simple winch.
This should be good. I been thinking about that on my mill but will definitely do something on new one.
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just about finished only thing left is to attache it to the frame, from what i can tell the pivot point is about 2/3 going towards the log stops, time will tell. tks for wishes Ray thumbs-up,.. just saw it tonight ha
wonder if your going to want some UHMW under the chain on top of the arm. Definitely be helpful against wear. And alot less friction.
Excited to see this in action.
Quote from: Vautour on February 06, 2021, 06:32:06 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210206_163109.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612653319)
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just about finished only thing left is to attache it to the frame, from what i can tell the pivot point is about 2/3 going towards the log stops, time will tell. tks for wishes Ray thumbs-up,.. just saw it tonight ha
Nice looking chain turner, those u shaped metal pieces welded to the chain is the same as I do. Cost about $15 a chain vs $100 for a factory chain. If that's a electric motor hooked direct to the chain I don't think it will have any where enough power. Mine uses a good sized hyd motor with a chain geared down some. The new TK mills use a direct to the turner like your but have a hugh hyd motor. Steve
Its pretty slick but i agree with ladylake .. Itll probably need a jackshaft and gearing for that motor to flip a good log.
What the motor hp and rpm output?
@Crusarius... the chain will be tight enough as to not ride on steel at all so UHMW is not necessary, but that idea is still in the back of my mind if needed. @mike_belben & ladylake,this is a 24 volt wheelchair motor and geared down at about 60 RPM i'm betting that it will be sufficient for most logs,..but if it doesn't, plan B come into play as Mike mentioned, a jack shaft and sprockets will be added.
The hyd motor on my chain turner has around 30 foot pounds of torque. Steve
let us know what it does. would like to have that info under my cap.
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Bracket on the bottom of last picture is where the winch cable will be pulling it from the other side to raise the chain roller... back stops are next.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/20210211_140336.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613132292)
I like the mount, like the turner, sure hope you will post some pics when you get it running, as well as keeping with the details. A chain turner add-on would be a great thing for all of us with manual mills.
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will be starting my log clamp tomorrow, powering up and down, and side to side..hmmm
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just about finished... missing a few sprockets to make it go from side to side... there is UHMV around the tubing and behind the chain opposite the sprocket...
Barge's mill has chain drive clamps like that. Pretty cool.
@mike_belben... never heard of Barge mills before... ill check em out... did a test today standing on my log dog using 12 volts and lifted me up no problem so hopefully 24 volts will be a lot stronger because i do plan on using the log dog to rotate a cant and the chain log roller for turning the logs.
Quote from: Vautour on February 20, 2021, 08:36:19 PM
@mike_belben... never heard of Barge mills before... ill check em out...
:D :D :D :D :D Good luck on that one! You'll have to make a long drive.
Bargemonkey.. He is a member here with a sawmill. I cant remember what brand
Tks for clearing that up Mike,wasn't sure if it was a company or a individual ... at least my ignorance made one guy laugh :D :D :D :D :D
Log clamp seems to work perfectly on a dry run... (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210227_155958.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614468564)
Had to install a shaft to get my motor out of the way for more travel ..(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210227_164214.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614468602)
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added a motor to a burnt out winch for lifting my log turner....
I hope you're going to have enough alternator to keep your battery up to run all those motors. ;)
@ RAYAR .... Two Batteries and a 24 volt high amp alternator should do the trick...only the feed motor will be on a continuous duty cycle.. got 6 motors installed... two more to go... this mill started out as a small manual mill ::)... i'm allergic to peaveys. :D
an alternator or pair of batteries is under $250 out of pocket. insurance paid over 20k on my shoulder 10 years ago and it comes with a lifetime of continued pain. burn up your dollars, not your body.
That's for sure Mike... work smarter not harder...
Quote from: Vautour on February 28, 2021, 11:16:26 AM
@ RAYAR ....this mill started out as a small manual mill ::)... i'm allergic to peaveys. :D
Mine still is all manual and it's great. Just think, if you'd've stuck to the manual, you would've been milling long ago. ;)
@RAYAR... I agree... i got lotsa time in mill #1( eventually widen that one up to cut 6 feet wide)...and since it's winter time and i have a welding shop and a God given gift to build things and have lotsa scrap to make it fully powered , sooo why not!!... the elusive smell of sawdust seems to be getting closer every day now ;D
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tow hitch and Had to add sections to lengthen my bed to cut 20' today...(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210424_162203.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1619309348)
this looks all i need for a power toe board?? hmm (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210327_161401_28129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1619309397)
Id have never thought to make a linear actuator out of a jack. Brilliant.
Vautour- I have been fascinated with the progression of your build. As much as I have used hydraulics in my life and would agree they make life so much easier on bandsaw mill, I also enjoy being able to perform the hydraulic function another way. I have a manual mill and have been working at copying hydraulic functions without the use of pumps and oil, though nothing to the engineering extent you have come up with. I just like the idea of eliminating hydraulic hoses and pumps if possible.
After many years of working up fire wood with hydraulic splitters and related equipment, I have found a Super Split splitter, belt driven conveyor, and a tph lifting boom with a hand winch pretty much has taken the hydraulics out of the fire wood process for me. Less potential for oil on the ground.
Keep up the good work and great ideas. Thanks, GF
Big thanks for all the kind comments guys,... there a a lot of great builts on this forum and sharing pictures helps a lot of people with there own built... all is good thumbs-up
With the motor for the log stops fixed in place, did you notice any issue with the belt falling off the modified trailer jack's pulley?
Great build, very informative.
thanks
@SPDM... no issues at all... there is probably only between 5 and 10.deg play and not enough to cause a problem, seems to work ok..
Had to take the jack apart and lengthen the pinion shaft cumming out off the jack assembly and added a 1'' teflon bushing and casing to hold the pinion shaft steady for a side load,.. one could leave it as is and use a cordless drill. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210508_170807.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620604169)
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these jacks are well geared down, using only 12 volts it lifted me up no problem,... will be stronger and faster when i have 24 volts going thru the motor.... that makes 8 motors on my mill ::),.. two more motors are in the works for my log loader(on the back burner for now)..Next project!! Hmm.
I can't wait to see the next addition. popcorn_smiley Bring on the electric motors!
Bought a bunch of wheelchair motors at the scrap yard(my favorite wholesaler).. $100 for eleven,.. two for my log loader using roller chains,..thinking about adding power outriggers (like a backhoe) having chain and sprockets at the pivot point!! hmm. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20210520_171625.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621673337)
nice score.
Do you think there will be any issues with coolant falling on the electric motors?
Theyre probably sealed for a chair in the rain scenario.
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Found this in the garbage,. a water softener tank for my water tank,.. perfect....
Is that for blade lube? Mines about 3 litres! You'll only need to fill it once a year at that rate
@JoshNZ.... after reading your comment and laughing my head off,.. maybe i over shot my water tank by a few litres :D....but it did make me rethink and that i could use that tank for my fuel and build a smaller water tank,.. boom new plan.
That's still looks about 3x as much fuel as I carry with a vtwin engine haha. But yup, who likes stopping to refuel
Cut it in half, baffle it and glue it back together. Water on one side fuel on the other.
Mike if it was stainless steel i would consider it and the fiberglass work!! i don't want to chance it.... meanwhile as i continue to cut, grind, weld, scratch my head, weld some more... still hoping for the elusive smell of sawdust.. soon.
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building blade gardes out of a old old electrical box i had,..
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chopped some I-beams for my bunks and welded a 1'' SS angle on top with two adjustable threaded rod on each. end.
That is very nice. I was thinking about a stainless steel U cap but the angle will work nicely.
You will like the movable bunks!!
Heck yeah
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now comes the more technical phase..MAKING IT WORK
I never realized the square/round/square stacked construction you built the bed with. That is one rigid son of a birch. Nice job.
Sure looks tidy!
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Ready for the wiring.
Looks great. You do nice work.
Vautour I hope you left enough room in your guards to install something to keep the blade teeth from contacting the steel guards, I used free rubber conveyor belting after screwing up 5-6 blades that came off the wheels due to various newbie mistakes. Gets spendy $$$$ when learning. The blades can come off both front and back, Off front and teeth hit the guard, instant dull, Off backwards and the teeth hit the band sheave tire wheels and dull and/or screw up the set. I pop riveted with aluminum pop rivets through the belting. Wood or plastic, uhmv would also work
Before the paint it was a thing of quality for sure. Now all painted up, it has transformed into a thing of beauty. 8)
I hope it will work as good as it looks. Thanks for sharing pictures of your build.
Iwawoodwork ... eventually there will be plywood on the inside of my doors and in all the back guards for sure. Quote from: Gere Flewelling on November 12, 2021, 08:16:06 AMI hope it will work as good as it looks.
tks... eventually i'll get there..looking good for 2022..
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next on the menu.. installing a energy chain using a vacuum hose, some angles and Teflon,..will it work?? will soon find out.
vacuum hose good idea.
Do a search for drag chain on AliExpress it is pretty affordable stuff. Buy it in metre lengths and I assume snap it together to extend. Don't know how it would hold up, I assume they're for CNC machines, indoor applications.
I did a search and this stuff is pretty expansive, even if it's from Joe's favorite Country "China"... for 3'' x 25' was over $700.00..new angles and hose would run around $100...
I started 3d printing the chain. but thats only so effective. The stuff I was using was only for my cnc.
@Crusarius... you're 3D printing a energy chain!!.. that's pretty cool.. could you share some photos??
I actually grabbed the files from thingiverse and just started printing them. I tried a couple different versions of it.
The first version on the left I really liked it was solid worked smooth and had the removable wire clip. Unfortunately what I didn;t like was the fact it can go to 90 degrees. part of the reason for a drag chain is to minimize fatigue on the wires from flex so the bend angle was not good. The stuff on the right is not as stout but works and has a limit lock so it won't even over bend the wires. Still has the removable wire clip to.
I think this is 10mm drag chain? I don't remember I would have to go find the file or measure it.
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Is that ABS?
PLA, I have not had the best luck with ABS. I need to build a box and have a better setup to start playing with ABS.
So far my only issue with PLA is it gets brittle in the cold. I started making an MPCNC with PLA, when I left it in the shop during testing the pieces got cold and brittle. but the design was not really a strong one to begin with. If I ever decide to get back into the MPCNC (v1engineering.com) I will modify the parts or design my own. but right now my next CNC I have a 3/4" aluminum plate set aside for all my brackets so its going to be a little more stout!
Mental note for anyone designing for 3D printers. They print in layers design to not create the layer in the plane you need the strength.
Roger all that. I have the same problem with ABS and the planes of weakness in PLA. I was going to try taping some foam core together to make a quick and dirty box for ABS, maybe put a forty watt light bulb in there, but haven't gotten around to it. The 3d printing has been interesting and given me sone useful items, but it's a big time waster and I haven't had a lot of excess time, so my use of it is sporadic.
It would take a fair amount of time to print the pieces for a twenty foot energy chain. I'd have to make sure the results would be durable before I printed the whole thing. Kinda sounds like what you're working towards. Good luck and keep us posted!
Btulloh, your dead on. It is definitely a big time waster.
I have not had the best luck with it. Really wish it was faster. I was going to start printing a bunch of boxes I could use to store bolts in my drawers and get rid of the bolt bins taking up space in the shop, but one box was a 9 hour print time. And in that 9 hours if the prints detaches from the bed it really ruins your day.
I think I may start a different thread so we can get out of vautours mill build.
did a test run today with the energy chain sooo as you can see in the photos the hose is attached to the carriage and pushes the hose which becomes a wet noodle problem so the white Teflon wheel pulls the hose to fix that problem,.. but my bungee cord pulling the wheel is not sufficient for the task. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20211127_175215.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638055631)
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.. new idea... that 16 rim circumference is 4ft and when attached to the spring shaft would only need 2 1/2 turns for my 10 feet of pull...that industrial spring has 140 turns and should keep a constant pull for the 2 1/2 turn required.... hmm (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20211127_183426.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638055736)
no problem on the 3D printing topic Crusarius... was very interesting.
Well now it has its own thread :)
what if you wired or zip tied the hose to roller chains for side to side support so it can still roll up but not flop out?
or maybe the problem is its not stiff enough and you are pushing on a rope basically.. ? if so maybe a scrap of winch cable or high tensile fence wire for a tube spine? push pull control cables are pretty stout.
so I just had this crazy idea. I don't really have the time to play with it but what if you could figure out a way to cut some PVC pipe and rivet it back together to make a drag chain? It would collect alot of sawdust but could take care of your problem.
yeah mike the problem is "pushing the rope" and has to be supple enough for the 10 radius that i have, zip tying a roller chain on the outside of the hose is not a bad idea, ............. ... Crusarius... cutting that PVC pipe 2''-4'' each piece and using a roller chain attached to it not only for side support but as the hinge between each piece would act the same way a energy chain should,.. those are good ideas guy...gonna do some test on those ideas this week ..
well, thats not what I was thinking but I love how the idea has morphed.
I suppose you could just zip tie the wires themselves right to a roller chain too ??
OK, Rube Goldberg it. Run a 1/16" aircraft cable from the head to the far end, around a pulley to the near end, around a pulley to the energy cable, around a pulley and affix to the near end. Now, when the head moves, it will move the energy cable pulley the correct amount.
ljohnsaw... running cables was my first idea but the carriage travel and my pulley pulling the hose travel is a 2:1 ratio... i did figure out the route with the wire and pulley system and was a bit complicated so i was looking at another option,.. couldn't figure out how you described it, is it a 2:1 ratio? ... maybe your route is less complicated, could you do a drawing ??
Have you tried Cable Chains from IGUS?
I used them when I replaced the chains on our Jacko mill.
Take care
Silverfox
Quote from: Vautour on November 29, 2021, 04:05:18 AMcould you do a drawing ?
Here you go...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/EnergyChain.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638237391)
So, pretty crude ;D The vertical bar is your saw head. The thick line going left from the head, around the big pulley and off to the right is your energy chain (vacuum hose). The thin line is some lightweight cable. Leaves the head on the right, around the pulley on the right, all the way back to the left and around the pulley, back to the right around a pulley that is attached to the big pulley and finally back to the left where it is anchored (or with a spring to act as a shock absorber when the head is started/stopped).
One more thing, the size of the pulley for the cable don't matter (don't have to match the energy chain pulley or each other). But, probably should be of sufficient size so the cable doesn't get kinked.
@ljohnsaw .... thanks for the drawing and taking the time to do it... now i see where you were you have your (2) 2:1 ratios, you got two pulley back to back attached to each other at the "pulley pulling the hose"..simpler design than mine was brilliant... thumbs-up.
If the carriage drive was on the trailer frame (full loop end to end frame) you could run another ½ loop at half speed off the full loop, but at some point it will cost more than buying the real thing.
Not sure how far you can push the vac hose before it starts to fold up? I wonder if capturing the vac hose in a rigid piece of pipe (maybe 3" plastic drain) with a slot cut in the top for your wires in a conduit? The pipe would run ½ way.
plastic gutter with hole saw holes to let chips fall through. Blow out with air periodically.
@Hilltop366 ..if my motor was on the frame i could have added a second pulley half the size of the driven pulley would have worked also i agree.... now, if you look at the pictures the unpainted angles and square tubing on the side is actually the same idea as your describing, i have 2 angles welded side by side on top with a 1'' slot along the full length of the frame where the wires will be going on to connect at the battery on the carriage... the pulley in the pic pulling on the hose is to keep it tight without folding up.
the plan seems to be working pretty good, ive pushed and pulled on the carriage several time and the vacum hose is working like energy chain should,.. gonna haft to add a aircraft cable inside the hose to get the "stretch" out of the hose for proper tension,.. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20211215_165608.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1639695486)
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Glad that's working good for you. In the last picture, what is the purpose of the bottom pulley on the near end? Looks like the cable is attached with a pair of vice grips to the frame after passing over it. Is that just to get you to a place you can attach the cable? Will there be a stiff tension spring or a turn buckle there when you are done?
ljohnsaw.... yeah your design worked,.. the small Teflon wheel on the bottom at the rear doesn't turn and is just there to avoid shaft edges and redirect the cable for somewhere to add a spring and a tightening device..
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All motors are hook up and working using 24 volts,the carriage travel and head going up and down have the speed controllers,..the real test will be under load with a log on the bed ,.. did a few modification over the winter and will document later.
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Dropped in to the new WM dealer( 40 mins away) two weeks ago to check out what he stocked in blades lengths,..i needed 180" and he stocked 184" so i modified my mill to accept his factory lengths and bought a 10 piece box of 1 1/2" X.045(he didn't have 1 1/4")...he said that the bigger mills 30 hp and up use the 1 1/2" blades,.. my mill is 32 hp with a Mcgivered carburetor, more head scratching :D.
looking good.
I wonder if you'll struggle to get the tension required for a 1-1/2" band when you're running them on pneumatic tyres. I read somewhere even the 1-1/4" bands can sink into the tyres too far and affect the set.
Have to run a buttload of psi. Are they 12ply industrial tyres haha?
I have seen ppl just take an angle grinder to them and put a groove in so the teeth do not contact. very good point though.
i didn't see the last comments guy that why i didn't respond haha,.. but yea i can now respond,.. got 60 psi in my tires and are tracking perfectly with my 1 1/2'' blades at 2500 psi tension on the blade,..A guy on youtube has been using these space dummy tires for eight years with no problem and i might grind them as Crusarius mentioned,.. my biggest concern was how my wheelchair motors were gonna do under load (especially the chain log turner, but it flipped this 12''at the but log no problem) every other motors functioned well also. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20220507_181522.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652139192)
Looking good. Do you like this one better than mill #1?
Missing a zero from your band tension psi? Cool if they're working well that's a whole lot cheaper than steel mill wheels
Crusarius... actually mill #1 is only half way on completion and the back burner for a while and debating if i want to widen it up to mill up to 6' wide!!..,... a zero has been added,. gonna check my gauge when the sun is up haha.
So you had to build mill #2 to get to sawing before mill #1 gets into service ... LOL. Well, at least you're sawing.
RAYAR... yeah something like that :D...had a 14'' on the big end by 10' long log and the chain roller turned it no problem... had some slippage on the blade .. more fine tuning needed.
Quote from: Vautour on May 11, 2022, 08:39:41 PM
RAYAR... yeah something like that :D...had a 14'' on the big end by 10' long log and the chain roller turned it no problem... had some slippage on the blade .. more fine tuning needed.
You can expect to have to do some fine tuning on a custom build. I guess we call that 'working the bugs out, to have it perform like envisioned.