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Author Topic: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.  (Read 1662 times)

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Offline Jim1934

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Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« on: June 01, 2021, 08:54:09 PM »
Hi- I want to convert the carriage feed on my old circle saw mill
to hydraulics. I need to run the motor in one direction to cut and the other
direction to gig. Will use lever operated 4 way valve.
My problem: I get conflicting info on whether the motor rotation can be changed by
merely changing the pressure line (via control valve) from one motor port to the other.
A call to a manufacturer indicated this can be done as the motors are bi directional and reversible.
However that company has a video that shows a BMPH  motor being disassembled and changed to use it in a
different rotation. Motor is a "Dynamic" BMPH series.

Can someone who is actually doing this help? Thanks, Jim

Update June 7-21. Have decided to put hyd. on hold and try a smaller dia. cable drum.
Eight in. dia vs original 18. Some question in my mind if 1/2 " wire rope will have enough friction with 5 turns.
Thanks. Jim

Offline Southside

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2021, 09:00:31 PM »
Calling our resident hydraulic specialist @mike_belben 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2021, 09:14:25 PM »
Im not really that good but i can try to help.  I have more questions than answers for now.  

1. Does your mill HAVE this hydraulic motor on it or are you adding it on?  

2. And what is gigging?  To me thats spearing frogs at night.


I downloaded a pdf on those motors and see its some sort of gearoller with a double splined wobble shaft and fancy stuff inside, i have no experience with them.


If it is a bi-rotational fixed displacement motor then i expect reversing the A and B work ports will reverse shaft rotation without any issue.

3. Do you already have the valve youre going to use?
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2021, 10:02:05 PM »
Thought gig was returning the cart/carriage in order to be loaded. Sorry
No motor on the mill now. Will be adding one.
I do not have valve.
Think all are bidirectional or reversible- But not sure this can be done just by changing
which port is pressurized. Suspect its one direction until you disassemble and change internals.
that is the queation. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2021, 10:45:06 PM »
No, just switch the flow direction, almost like a cylinder. In A then out B or in B then out A. 


 You want a 3 position spring centered valve to make the motor run clockwise, counterclockwise and park when you let off the handle.  Spring center will auto return to park if you let go.  And you dont want any detents in my opinion. 

  I dont know if a "motor spool" is a good idea or not.  The neutral position would freewheel and allow the carriage to drift and over run at the end of travel.  I suspect a better setup might be to use a cylinder spool with relief valves in the work ports to prevent banging when you get to the end and let the valve return to center or shift to return home.  


Let me know if i need to clarify any of that. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2021, 11:43:32 PM »
Mike is right on , you do the forward-reverse of your carriage drive motor  just by the one correct control valve. That is how my Mighty Mite mill forward and reverse works, only instead of a cable drum it has a sprocket and chain. 

Offline tacks Y

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 07:18:59 AM »
Do you already have the motor? A gear motor would work this way.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 07:24:02 AM »
Im not really that good but i can try to help.  I have more questions than answers for now.  

1. Does your mill HAVE this hydraulic motor on it or are you adding it on?  

2. And what is gigging?  To me thats spearing frogs at night.


I downloaded a pdf on those motors and see its some sort of gearoller with a double splined wobble shaft and fancy stuff inside, i have no experience with them.


If it is a bi-rotational fixed displacement motor then i expect reversing the A and B work ports will reverse shaft rotation without any issue.

3. Do you already have the valve youre going to use?

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 07:29:38 AM »
I don't know if it's because your young or because your form Mass.   On a sawmill carriage going into the log is called crowding and backing up is called gigging or gigging back.  At some point in history sawyers allowed frog spearman to use their term :D.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2021, 07:33:14 AM »
Thought gig was returning the cart/carriage in order to be loaded. Sorry
It might be, i just didnt know.  Im not a sawyer.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2021, 07:35:26 AM »
I don't know if it's because your young or because your form Mass.   On a sawmill carriage going into the log is called crowding and backing up is called gigging or gigging back.  At some point in history sawyers allowed frog spearman to use their term :D.
10-4 doug. Thanks.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Machinebuilder

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2021, 09:16:44 AM »
I think that motor is not bidirectional. When ordering there is a special order option for reverse direction.

to be sure call the tech support line and ask before purchasing one.

There are many other hydraulic motors that are bidirectional.

For the valve I think you want a 3 position spring return to center, A to B center valve. this would allow free wheeling in the center position.


I'm not an expert on hydraulic motors but do a lot of industrial hydraulic work.
Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 465 and 435, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2021, 10:16:36 AM »
Yes, you NEED a bi-directional motor. 


Having never run a circle mill i dont know if its better to let the carriage over run or not.  
Isaiah 63:10

Offline PoginyHill

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2021, 10:24:43 AM »
Good point, Mike. I think you'd want ports A & B to be closed, not open, so that the carriage would stop when in the neutral position. Open center for working ports is great for a winch, maybe no so good for a saw carriage.
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Offline sealark37

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2021, 10:49:18 AM »
Call "The Surplus Center".  Tell them what you want to do, and they will help you with the motor and the valve.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2021, 10:54:39 AM »
Daft question, isn't it possible to find a whole hydraulic carriage winch on craigslist or ebay ? Or dafter even, a tower crane's winch?
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Machinebuilder

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2021, 11:14:31 AM »
ya'll may have a good point o the valve center, I know almost nothing about circle mills.

Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 465 and 435, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2021, 12:31:18 PM »
I wish I knew more about this subject. The hyd. motors I run are on conveyers and they reverse through motor spool valves. A sawmill carriage takes a serious jolt every time you gig back. You also use the feed for a brake constantly. The old belt or friction feeds are slipping all the time. On a commercial sawmill the hyd. feeds start out at 50 h.p. So a small hyd. feed must be heavy enough and be cushioned somehow or it will surely break.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2021, 12:40:00 PM »
Does your sawmill carriage winches look like this in the us?

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_industriels/1137281049.htm?ac=206978287

It would may be, be too expensive to import one from this side of the pond. But there should be some somewhere laying around in the US.

Leboncoin, is a kind of equivalent of craigslist.  (it means the good corner) It covers all of France. And most of other european states have a sequel of this website.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2021, 03:37:48 PM »
I dont have a lot of hands on experience with cushion valves but i think thats whats needed here to dampen the shock of stopping the carriage and log inertia at the end of the pass without carnage.

  A cylinder spool center with adjustable cushion valve to burp off the high psi jolt back to tank but not allow drift or over run like a motor center.  

Isaiah 63:10

Online Hilltop366

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2021, 08:10:14 PM »
I have read before (don't remember where) that any hyd motor that turns anything with inertia should use a open centre valve, a motor valve should be easier to adjust feed rate. Could add a park break somewhere in the shaft or drum if worried about the carriage creeping. 

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2021, 08:15:14 PM »
I wish I knew more about this subject. The hyd. motors I run are on conveyers and they reverse through motor spool valves. A sawmill carriage takes a serious jolt every time you gig back. You also use the feed for a brake constantly. The old belt or friction feeds are slipping all the time. On a commercial sawmill the hyd. feeds start out at 50 h.p. So a small hyd. feed must be heavy enough and be cushioned somehow or it will surely break.
Good point. I will have a gear reduction of 32:1 between hyd. motor shaft and the cable drum shaft. Existing gears are heavy duty.
Four are 3 diametrical pitch and 3 inches wide. Diameters are 18,4 1/2, 16,4. I will add another reduction of 2 with chain and sprockets at the motor end. This reduction results in the motor seeing one tenth of one percent of the carriage inertia.
I'm guessing the motor will not be damaged. Thanks for the post. Jim



Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2021, 10:18:40 PM »
You a machinist jim?
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Southside

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2021, 11:04:19 PM »
I don't know if it's because your young or because your form Mass.   On a sawmill carriage going into the log is called crowding and backing up is called gigging or gigging back.  At some point in history sawyers allowed frog spearman to use their term :D.
Gee and Haw..... ;D
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Riehl Edger
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2021, 12:41:33 AM »
I know what that one means.  But my kids still dont obey.

;D
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2021, 09:33:47 AM »
You a machinist jim?
Ha, yes, old school, self taught, just so I can repair my toys
like the Knight mill. Made a living as an engineer, many years ago.
Wonder why you asked. Probably the "diametrical pitch" did it. :D

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2021, 10:15:26 AM »
yeah.. normal people dont mention DP

;D
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Machinebuilder

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2021, 11:21:13 AM »
My Hydraulics salesman/expert stopped by this morning.

the correct valve will be a A/B to tank center. This is what is refered to as a motor control valve.
A blocked port center will cause large pressure spikes from inertia.

He started to explain the reverse rotation option and it has to do with changing the flow paths inside the motor,for easier plumbing.

You will need a bidirectional motor.
Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 465 and 435, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2021, 11:51:57 AM »
I think that motor is not bidirectional. When ordering there is a special order option for reverse direction.

to be sure call the tech support line and ask before purchasing one.

There are many other hydraulic motors that are bidirectional.

For the valve I think you want a 3 position spring return to center, A to B center valve. this would allow free wheeling in the center position.


I'm not an expert on hydraulic motors but do a lot of industrial hydraulic work.
Thanks! Calls to manufactures help lines give opposing answers. Some make no sense. But a call to 1-219-762-2059 has
convinced me you are correct. Unfortunately  I can't find one that is low speed hi torque. All are in the thousands of RPM.

Offline Tacotodd

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2021, 12:57:46 PM »
Like so many things in life, gearing is your friend. For example, your typical Warn electric winch is 315-1 and 3 sets of gears; but the Warn hydraulic industrial winch , I forget the gear reduction ratio, is 2 sets. Thatís why you need the proper gearing. 

Iím not trying to step on toes, just wanted to throw that example out there.
Trying harder everyday.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2021, 01:00:26 PM »
I would look at the wheel motors in Surplus Center. Also would get the tapered hub and attach sprocket to that. Lack of knowledge would make me go this way because you see machines like black top rollers forward and reverse constantly plus the weight of the machine. Alot depends on the hyd. flow you have on your mill. Prince makes a rotary valve that looks interesting.          Lanetec made a kit to put hyd. feed on a small sawmill. I believe it was spec't for the gig back speed and a return to tank flow control was used to slow down the feed speed, that's almost too simple.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2021, 01:25:51 PM »
They do make wheel hub motors with integrated drum brake for hydraulic equipment.  Surplus center will have them and they are low speed high torque generic reversibles. Zero turns use em.


I am still on the fence about a motor center valve.  Send the log down the line and when you let off it slams into the end of the track and jumps off the carriage?  Or switch directions on the valve to stop it and now you get a reverse pressure spike anyway that the motor center was supposed to alleviate in the first place?   Which is the lesser of two evils i dont know.  


If there isnt a mechanical device like a brake to dissipate the carriage inertia before changing directions, theres gonna have to be a hydraulic one.  In my opinion anyways.. I am benchracing here and wish someone who has actually done this and dialed it in perfect would chime in.  I dont want to spend the OPs money but im still thinking its gonna take a cylinder spool with an adjustable cushion valve in each work port to bleed off the pressure spikes to tank.


A wheel motor with integrated brake hub could use a small bimba air cylinder with a DC solenoid pushbotton on a top gun joystick handle to blip the brakes when needed.  Thats the only way i can see a motor spool working.  Or maybe i guess a motor spool with a cushion valve so you dont snap anything when slamming it in reverse. 


I hope you keep us posted on the hurdles.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline PoginyHill

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2021, 01:52:34 PM »
A small accumulator on each of the lines to a hyd motor might absorb the worst of shocks if using a closed center valve. Heavier motors can withstand a fair amount of shock. If using an open center valve, a shock absorber at each end of the carriage travel might be all that is needed.
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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2021, 02:10:09 PM »
I think that motor is not bidirectional. When ordering there is a special order option for reverse direction.

to be sure call the tech support line and ask before purchasing one.

There are many other hydraulic motors that are bidirectional.

For the valve I think you want a 3 position spring return to center, A to B center valve. this would allow free wheeling in the center position.


I'm not an expert on hydraulic motors but do a lot of industrial hydraulic work.
Thanks! Calls to manufactures help lines give opposing answers. Some make no sense. But a call to 1-219-762-2059 has
convinced me you are correct. Unfortunately  I can't find one that is low speed hi torque. All are in the thousands of RPM.
I just spoke with my supplier and the Dynamic motor is bidirectional, it is a knockoff of similar CharLynn etc motors
Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 465 and 435, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2021, 06:34:59 PM »
They do make wheel hub motors with integrated drum brake for hydraulic equipment.  Surplus center will have them and they are low speed high torque generic reversibles. Zero turns use em.


I am still on the fence about a motor center valve.  Send the log down the line and when you let off it slams into the end of the track and jumps off the carriage?  Or switch directions on the valve to stop it and now you get a reverse pressure spike anyway that the motor center was supposed to alleviate in the first place?   Which is the lesser of two evils i dont know.  


If there isnt a mechanical device like a brake to dissipate the carriage inertia before changing directions, theres gonna have to be a hydraulic one.  In my opinion anyways.. I am benchracing here and wish someone who has actually done this and dialed it in perfect would chime in.  I dont want to spend the OPs money but im still thinking its gonna take a cylinder spool with an adjustable cushion valve in each work port to bleed off the pressure spikes to tank.


A wheel motor with integrated brake hub could use a small bimba air cylinder with a DC solenoid pushbotton on a top gun joystick handle to blip the brakes when needed.  Thats the only way i can see a motor spool working.  Or maybe i guess a motor spool with a cushion valve so you dont snap anything when slamming it in reverse.


I hope you keep us posted on the hurdles.
Mike, I suggested a wheel motor for strength and slow speed. The brake would not be used. Everything is done with the spool valve like mowing with one side of a 0 turn [even though that's closed center]  I put in a petition with the town of Greenville to name that section of 84 into Port 'Mike Belben Hill'

Offline Don P

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2021, 07:13:21 PM »
I wonder if we're overthinking it. If I stay on the crowd it'll plow into either end of the mill till something breaks, I feather down at the end of the tracks. Release it and I'm in "neutral" I can roll the carriage by hand. If I slam it from forward to reverse it'll either shear the roll pin in the cable drum or snatch the eyebolts at the end of the carriage. I don't see hydraulics being different in that regard, just feather the levers  ???. I've been turning the bobcat around between tight block walls and posts in a basement all afternoon just nursing the controls.
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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2021, 08:19:52 PM »
Use a variable displacement pump.
It will give you forward and reverse with variable speed, torque and hydraulic braking.
First you make it work, then you trick it out!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2021, 10:01:54 PM »
dan probably has the best suggestion of all there. 

if i were building a hydraulic carriage it would use a swash plate variable pump and a fixed displacement wheel motor.  basically hydrostatic and that will be comparable to operating a skid steer or zero turn because thats exactly what they are.  


now if you were using a fixed gear pump and modulating a valve to a fixed displacement motor it would be exactly what a Case hi-drive tractor is, which are about the jerkiest riding machines you can experience, ive had 2. it would take very long levers with completely tight pins to get the resolution necessary on the spool to feather a fixed displacement system.  they dont drive like hydrostatic at all and if they did, skid steer manufacturers would save a BUNDLE using them instead of variable piston pumps.   



@doug..  the hill did what hills do, i cant blame it for me being a moron.  now wawayanda court on the other hand..  ill never have nothing nice to say about them.  
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2021, 09:18:04 AM »
dan probably has the best suggestion of all there.

if i were building a hydraulic carriage it would use a swash plate variable pump and a fixed displacement wheel motor.  basically hydrostatic and that will be comparable to operating a skid steer or zero turn because thats exactly what they are.  


now if you were using a fixed gear pump and modulating a valve to a fixed displacement motor it would be exactly what a Case hi-drive tractor is, which are about the jerkiest riding machines you can experience, ive had 2. it would take very long levers with completely tight pins to get the resolution necessary on the spool to feather a fixed displacement system.  they dont drive like hydrostatic at all and if they did, skid steer manufacturers would save a BUNDLE using them instead of variable piston pumps.  



@doug..  the hill did what hills do, i cant blame it for me being a moron.  now wawayanda court on the other hand..  ill never have nothing nice to say about them.  
Great info and insight!. If I could salvage a hydrostatic drive from say a 12 HP garden tractor
I think that would be ideal. Buying a $1k pump and separate wheel motor is out of the question.
We run the mill twice a year for our own use. Our big problem is the gig speed- about 8 ft/sec. Scary
even with feathering. An option to reduce carriage speed is to replace the 18 in. cable drum with an 8 inch one.
Might have to replace wire rope with smaller size. Nearly to the point of abandoning hyd. idea.
Thanks again. Jim.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2021, 10:14:56 AM »
Actually its not as bad as you think.  You can get a new variable piston pump with the spring centering shaft gear for $130 then $20 for one half of the splined lovejoy L090 coupler.. $100 for a new fixed gear motor plus shipping.. Maybe tax, then hoses and whatever sprockets or belting to couple the motor.  Maybe $40 for the AA pump mount.  Could drive it with gas or electric.  $500 will surely do new everything except the engine.  A reservoir, filter and cooler obviously needs to be rigged up too. 


Old hydrostatic mowers used the best of parts but generally integrated the pumps and rears... Youd have quite a project separating them.  Walk behinds and zero turns did use independant components but most people arent gonna find a serviceable parts pile for less than new price at surplus center.


Jackshafting your current drum slower or dropping down in drum OD is still probably the way to go.
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2021, 11:32:39 AM »
The Dynamic motor is bi-directional. When they talk about converting rotation, its relative to A and B ports. If for example you now put oil into the A port, and get CW rotation, you can convert it and now put oil into the A port and get CCW rotation. Some gerotor motors are also a little more efficient in one direction vs the other, so if your application runs primarily in one direction, it would be of value to have it configured to gain the extra efficiency. In most cases it does not matter.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full falls off the top shelf and hits the top of your head!

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2021, 09:01:16 PM »
Actually its not as bad as you think.  You can get a new variable piston pump with the spring centering shaft gear for $130 then $20 for one half of the splined lovejoy L090 coupler.. $100 for a new fixed gear motor plus shipping.. Maybe tax, then hoses and whatever sprockets or belting to couple the motor.  Maybe $40 for the AA pump mount.  Could drive it with gas or electric.  $500 will surely do new everything except the engine.  A reservoir, filter and cooler obviously needs to be rigged up too.


Old hydrostatic mowers used the best of parts but generally integrated the pumps and rears... Youd have quite a project separating them.  Walk behinds and zero turns did use independant components but most people arent gonna find a serviceable parts pile for less than new price at surplus center.


Jackshafting your current drum slower or dropping down in drum OD is still probably the way to go.
Ordered material to fabricate an 8 " cable drum. Still interested in your hydraulic solution.
Search fails to find a variable piston pump at surplus center or anywhere else for a$200 or so price.
Don't understand spring centering shaft GEAR. I thought pump would have a lever or something that operator
would use to control flow rate. I am out of my league. Thanks.

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2021, 11:08:28 PM »
Items 9-8980 and 1-3615-9

@jim1934


Yes, youll have a shaft to control flow rate and direction of rotation completely variable by tilting an internal swash plate connected to the shaft. The angle of the plate dictates the plunger stroke and thus gpm output .

 You need that to be spring centering.  When you let off the action stops and it will hold your hyd motor in place.  Without spring center youd be hunting for park and creeping carriage when you miss it.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2021, 09:52:13 AM »
Mike- please take a minute and see if the JD transmission in this like would work.
It looks like a pump, motor and flow control valve in one package.
Thanks again. Jim
John Deere 312 314 317 316 300 Tractor Transmission | eBay

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2021, 12:09:47 PM »
Its a sunstrand 15, used in deere 140 and up into somewhere in the 400 series i believe. Also many cub cadets or maybe others, possibly bolens. I have a lot of experience with them and theyre unbreakable with 16hp or less.  But its not the route id go for that much money when you can buy all new for the same and that one might be spanked or all rusted up inside from sitting unused with oil only in the bottom.

  It is the golden standard of garden tractor pumps if that is the route you really want.  In that case...  Id find a dead deere or cub cadet hydrostaric parts machine. That way you get the whole rear with a rim or two and the driveshaft and fan hopefully.  

There will be a conventional ring and pinion on a carrier in the axle. and the pinion gear will have a large bull gear thats spined to float on the pinion shaft.  

That hydrostatic drive combo will be mounted up above the pinion and its output shaft will drive the bull gear so there is the rear end reduction ratio and the bull gear reduction ratio.  It is a very, very powerful complete axle assembly.  The carrier is made by dana.. Probably a dana 30. Big axle shafts and hubs etc.

You could weld up the carrier spider gears into a locker to make the rear into a right angle drive and then drill 5 on 4.5 wheel pattern into a sprocket.. Or use a cutout rim face to mate your belt or sprocket to for linking up to your existing cable friction drum.  

It will give impeccable feathering and control on the carriage, theyre a precise driveline, i built quite a mini construction tractor around one because its so good.


Also using the entire rear is 100 % self contained.  Youll get a fluid sump, cooling fan, filtration and filler with dipstick all in one.  Without the rear you have to make all that.  The pump input shaft is actually a thru shaft.. It can be driven from the front or the back. Use a 5/8 lovejoy coupler and drill out the set screw for a rollpin.  There is no keyway on the shaft, just rollpin holes.  


Youre engine can drive one side of the shaft and an auxiliary loader pump can be piggy backed off the other side of it. Thats how i put high pressure hydraulics on my deere 140.  
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2021, 12:44:25 PM »
That's an interesting post. I am tripping over a pump and rear end assembly from a Wheel Horse D 160 and thought it would make a good vari. feed for an edger.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2021, 12:55:01 PM »
I had a wheel horse D200 that i flipped without ever trying to run it so i cant say what is inside those.  I cant even remember it actually.  Big machine i remember that. 


Deere 140 thru 4xx will pull an outrageous amount of stone boat or sled and carry so much carriage ballast that the rims leave cutter marks no matter how much air you put in.  I mean a pallet of 1" plate steel hung all over.  Where the engine is WOT and tires cant spin and the machine just stalls in place @ WOT but nothing moves and nothing breaks.  Very very robust.  Cub 1250/1450/supercubs etc as well as old bolens eliminator 1600 series are all the same.  Real tractors sized down. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2021, 03:16:38 PM »
Thanks for the great info. Just bought a JD LT155 for $195. Engine shot. Hope it works out.
Sight unseen. Gotta go pick it up east of here.

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2021, 05:06:44 PM »
I pulled this out of a Ransoms 72" mower.
The hydro drive also has a hydraulic pump built in for the steering and deck lift.
The steering cylinder now actuates the lock for left to right movement of the saw head.
The lift cylinder and the steering valve control the blade flip.


 
It's powered via belt by a 3 hp electric motor.


 
Then into a 10-1 gearbox.
With chain drive to the cable drum shaft.


 
The swashplate lever is directed to seat area with some linkages.


 
First you make it work, then you trick it out!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2021, 09:03:20 PM »
Heck yeah.  Ransomes made good lawn equipment, as did lessco.  I think both were consumed by deere eventually ..?  Not certain. 


That is a good point that i forgot to add about the hydrostatic units having an auxiliary hydraulic circuit.  It is the charge pump flow regulated up to 500-750 psi for mower deck or power steering etc etc.  Mine no longer has it because that flow is being fed at about 10psi via pen spring in the regulator port, to the inlet side of my piggy back gear pump.  Ive got it relieved to 2300 psi or so i think. 


Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2021, 09:06:05 PM »
Thanks for the great info. Just bought a JD LT155 for $195. Engine shot. Hope it works out.
Sight unseen. Gotta go pick it up east of here.
Jim i am sorry but the LT series is much newer than the ones i am speaking about and probably isnt built anything like the ones i mentioned.  I know its numerically in that sequence but thats like 30yrs newer.  The 140H3 is about a 1970 machine and it subsequently went up to the 300 and 400 series probably into the 90s or so.  I am really sorry i didnt think ti mention that and i hope you can make use of what you bought.  Im feelin pretty guilty here. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2021, 09:30:38 PM »
No need to feel guilty. I have asked to cancel the order.
I should of asked you before buying.
I am now confused about which ones to buy. Not your fault.
Don't know how to tell the correct one by looking at it.
Thanks for the alert.
Nothings easy :)

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Isaiah 63:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2021, 09:47:58 PM »














Isaiah 63:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2021, 09:52:13 PM »
Theres the 140H1 and 140H3.  Then the 300.  Then i think its 314/316/318.  Ive not had or worked on any of them so do some research.  I know theyre bulletproof.  My buddies brothers 300. 





The h1 or h3 is just how many spools on the hydraulic valve.  Same pump and rear. Mine is an H6 now.  ;D





Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2021, 10:02:25 PM »
Thanks for the great info. Just bought a JD LT155 for $195. Engine shot. Hope it works out.
Sight unseen. Gotta go pick it up east of here.
Jim i am sorry but the LT series is much newer than the ones i am speaking about and probably isnt built anything like the ones i mentioned.  I know its numerically in that sequence but thats like 30yrs newer.  The 140H3 is about a 1970 machine and it subsequently went up to the 300 and 400 series probably into the 90s or so.  I am really sorry i didnt think ti mention that and i hope you can make use of what you bought.  Im feelin pretty guilty here.
Perhaps this representative of whatI bought https://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-LT166-LT155-Lawn-Mower-Tractor-TuffTorq-K51B-Hydro-Drive-Transaxle-/124638895717?hash=item1d050e9e65

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2021, 11:42:45 PM »
You might be able to make it work.  No similarity to the one ive shown.  


Btw dont take it personal if your ebay link gets removed.. Just a forum rule. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2021, 06:14:44 PM »
Mike- looking at a Cub 1650 tranny axle unit. Suspect rugged enough for my application. $100. 1980 vintage.
Do you have any info on overall speed reduction from input of tranny to axles at full speed?
Prepared for replacing bearings, seals, etc. Broken gears and severe corrosion not so much. Lots of 1650's available.
Not sure if that is good or bad.
Any other comments?
If I ever figure out how to post pix I can make more sense.
Thanks, Jim.

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2021, 07:45:48 PM »
1650 was a good machine, think i have one sitting in mass that someone gave me needing motor put back together. 

Its the same pump afaik but different housing.  Im not sure about the gear ratio.  3600 rpm input speed.
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2021, 11:57:27 AM »
You got me curious enough to go count splines.  

The pump comes out with 12t into a 72t bull gear that slides on a 12t pinion into a 60t ring gear.  So 6:1 times 5:1 = 30:1 fixed overall gear reduction between the hydrostat and the axle shaft on a deere 140.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2021, 06:11:52 PM »
Thanks. I assumed top speed would be about 5 mph. and using tire radius figured wheels going 110 rpm or so.Great.
Been busy disassembling 1650. Wondering if aux.hyd ports, now powering lift cyl, are controlled in any way by
the  drive controls. The drive shaft to engine has a flex coupling made of fabric discs about 4 " in dia. Not sure that is stock.
Have a 17 hp Kohler engine I can use, but it weighs 100lb. Would like to use 10 hp lightweight. It will only run a few times a year for a couple of hours. If I guess it will take 1000 lb. of force to push log at 1 ft/sec that is about 2 HP. Assume 25%
efficiency and 10 HP should do it. As you can see I am full of questions. Regards, Jim.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2021, 10:39:52 PM »
The ragjoint is probably oem.. They are on deeres. 

The rockshaft sticks out the passenger side of the pump and it tilts the swash plate to control fwd/rev.  I think youll want to retain whatever auto spring centering cub uses, im not familiar with it.  Also youll want very smooth tight linkages or the handle directly on the rockshaft.  Very very little slop required to make it very hard to control.  Maybe not in a sawmill but bigtime on a tractor. 

The aux ports can be looped if you dont need them.  The charge pump inside pulls up sump fluid and forces it into the axial piston pump.  But that fluid is also jacked up to 550ish psi via a spring and checkball under one of the caps up top.  This pressure is your aux hydraulics.  It needs to go to its own external control valve then back to the return port on the front.   Passenger side is out. Driver side is return.  

You can loop it with a hose if not needed. Or route it to another piggy back pump if you need high pressure for other cylinder uses.  Just use a pen spring to drop the pressure down to 5psi or so in order not to puke the input seal out of the supercharged pump. I did that a few times. 


Id use the kohler if it runs.  Great engine and you already got it. Everything is available cheap for those. Should have a dc belt clutch upfront too i think.  Could run an air compressor or something.
Isaiah 63:10


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