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Running hyd motor in fwd and rev.

Started by Jim1934, June 01, 2021, 08:54:09 PM

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Jim1934

Quote from: mike_belben on June 02, 2021, 10:18:40 PM
You a machinist jim?
Ha, yes, old school, self taught, just so I can repair my toys
like the Knight mill. Made a living as an engineer, many years ago.
Wonder why you asked. Probably the "diametrical pitch" did it. :D

mike_belben

yeah.. normal people dont mention DP

;D
Praise The Lord

Machinebuilder

My Hydraulics salesman/expert stopped by this morning.

the correct valve will be a A/B to tank center. This is what is refered to as a motor control valve.
A blocked port center will cause large pressure spikes from inertia.

He started to explain the reverse rotation option and it has to do with changing the flow paths inside the motor,for easier plumbing.

You will need a bidirectional motor.
Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 460 and Stihl 180, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770, New Holland TN60A

Jim1934

Quote from: Machinebuilder on June 02, 2021, 09:16:44 AM
I think that motor is not bidirectional. When ordering there is a special order option for reverse direction.

to be sure call the tech support line and ask before purchasing one.

There are many other hydraulic motors that are bidirectional.

For the valve I think you want a 3 position spring return to center, A to B center valve. this would allow free wheeling in the center position.


I'm not an expert on hydraulic motors but do a lot of industrial hydraulic work.
Thanks! Calls to manufactures help lines give opposing answers. Some make no sense. But a call to 1-219-762-2059 has
convinced me you are correct. Unfortunately  I can't find one that is low speed hi torque. All are in the thousands of RPM.

Tacotodd

Like so many things in life, gearing is your friend. For example, your typical Warn electric winch is 315-1 and 3 sets of gears; but the Warn hydraulic industrial winch , I forget the gear reduction ratio, is 2 sets. That's why you need the proper gearing. 

I'm not trying to step on toes, just wanted to throw that example out there.
Trying harder everyday.

moodnacreek

I would look at the wheel motors in Surplus Center. Also would get the tapered hub and attach sprocket to that. Lack of knowledge would make me go this way because you see machines like black top rollers forward and reverse constantly plus the weight of the machine. Alot depends on the hyd. flow you have on your mill. Prince makes a rotary valve that looks interesting.          Lanetec made a kit to put hyd. feed on a small sawmill. I believe it was spec't for the gig back speed and a return to tank flow control was used to slow down the feed speed, that's almost too simple.

mike_belben

They do make wheel hub motors with integrated drum brake for hydraulic equipment.  Surplus center will have them and they are low speed high torque generic reversibles. Zero turns use em.


I am still on the fence about a motor center valve.  Send the log down the line and when you let off it slams into the end of the track and jumps off the carriage?  Or switch directions on the valve to stop it and now you get a reverse pressure spike anyway that the motor center was supposed to alleviate in the first place?   Which is the lesser of two evils i dont know.  


If there isnt a mechanical device like a brake to dissipate the carriage inertia before changing directions, theres gonna have to be a hydraulic one.  In my opinion anyways.. I am benchracing here and wish someone who has actually done this and dialed it in perfect would chime in.  I dont want to spend the OPs money but im still thinking its gonna take a cylinder spool with an adjustable cushion valve in each work port to bleed off the pressure spikes to tank.


A wheel motor with integrated brake hub could use a small bimba air cylinder with a DC solenoid pushbotton on a top gun joystick handle to blip the brakes when needed.  Thats the only way i can see a motor spool working.  Or maybe i guess a motor spool with a cushion valve so you dont snap anything when slamming it in reverse. 


I hope you keep us posted on the hurdles.
Praise The Lord

PoginyHill

A small accumulator on each of the lines to a hyd motor might absorb the worst of shocks if using a closed center valve. Heavier motors can withstand a fair amount of shock. If using an open center valve, a shock absorber at each end of the carriage travel might be all that is needed.
Kubota M7060 & B2401, Metavic log trailer, Cat E70B, Cat D5C, 750 Grizzly ATV, Wallenstein FX110, 84" Landpride rotary hog, Classic Edge 750, Stihl 170, 261, 462

Machinebuilder

Quote from: Jim1934 on June 03, 2021, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: Machinebuilder on June 02, 2021, 09:16:44 AM
I think that motor is not bidirectional. When ordering there is a special order option for reverse direction.

to be sure call the tech support line and ask before purchasing one.

There are many other hydraulic motors that are bidirectional.

For the valve I think you want a 3 position spring return to center, A to B center valve. this would allow free wheeling in the center position.


I'm not an expert on hydraulic motors but do a lot of industrial hydraulic work.
Thanks! Calls to manufactures help lines give opposing answers. Some make no sense. But a call to 1-219-762-2059 has
convinced me you are correct. Unfortunately  I can't find one that is low speed hi torque. All are in the thousands of RPM.
I just spoke with my supplier and the Dynamic motor is bidirectional, it is a knockoff of similar CharLynn etc motors
Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 460 and Stihl 180, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770, New Holland TN60A

moodnacreek

Quote from: mike_belben on June 03, 2021, 01:25:51 PM
They do make wheel hub motors with integrated drum brake for hydraulic equipment.  Surplus center will have them and they are low speed high torque generic reversibles. Zero turns use em.


I am still on the fence about a motor center valve.  Send the log down the line and when you let off it slams into the end of the track and jumps off the carriage?  Or switch directions on the valve to stop it and now you get a reverse pressure spike anyway that the motor center was supposed to alleviate in the first place?   Which is the lesser of two evils i dont know.  


If there isnt a mechanical device like a brake to dissipate the carriage inertia before changing directions, theres gonna have to be a hydraulic one.  In my opinion anyways.. I am benchracing here and wish someone who has actually done this and dialed it in perfect would chime in.  I dont want to spend the OPs money but im still thinking its gonna take a cylinder spool with an adjustable cushion valve in each work port to bleed off the pressure spikes to tank.


A wheel motor with integrated brake hub could use a small bimba air cylinder with a DC solenoid pushbotton on a top gun joystick handle to blip the brakes when needed.  Thats the only way i can see a motor spool working.  Or maybe i guess a motor spool with a cushion valve so you dont snap anything when slamming it in reverse.


I hope you keep us posted on the hurdles.
Mike, I suggested a wheel motor for strength and slow speed. The brake would not be used. Everything is done with the spool valve like mowing with one side of a 0 turn [even though that's closed center]  I put in a petition with the town of Greenville to name that section of 84 into Port 'Mike Belben Hill'

Don P

I wonder if we're overthinking it. If I stay on the crowd it'll plow into either end of the mill till something breaks, I feather down at the end of the tracks. Release it and I'm in "neutral" I can roll the carriage by hand. If I slam it from forward to reverse it'll either shear the roll pin in the cable drum or snatch the eyebolts at the end of the carriage. I don't see hydraulics being different in that regard, just feather the levers  ???. I've been turning the bobcat around between tight block walls and posts in a basement all afternoon just nursing the controls.

Dangerous_Dan

Use a variable displacement pump.
It will give you forward and reverse with variable speed, torque and hydraulic braking.
First you make it work, then you trick it out!

mike_belben

dan probably has the best suggestion of all there. 

if i were building a hydraulic carriage it would use a swash plate variable pump and a fixed displacement wheel motor.  basically hydrostatic and that will be comparable to operating a skid steer or zero turn because thats exactly what they are.  


now if you were using a fixed gear pump and modulating a valve to a fixed displacement motor it would be exactly what a Case hi-drive tractor is, which are about the jerkiest riding machines you can experience, ive had 2. it would take very long levers with completely tight pins to get the resolution necessary on the spool to feather a fixed displacement system.  they dont drive like hydrostatic at all and if they did, skid steer manufacturers would save a BUNDLE using them instead of variable piston pumps.   



@doug..  the hill did what hills do, i cant blame it for me being a moron.  now wawayanda court on the other hand..  ill never have nothing nice to say about them.  
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Quote from: mike_belben on June 03, 2021, 10:01:54 PM
dan probably has the best suggestion of all there.

if i were building a hydraulic carriage it would use a swash plate variable pump and a fixed displacement wheel motor.  basically hydrostatic and that will be comparable to operating a skid steer or zero turn because thats exactly what they are.  


now if you were using a fixed gear pump and modulating a valve to a fixed displacement motor it would be exactly what a Case hi-drive tractor is, which are about the jerkiest riding machines you can experience, ive had 2. it would take very long levers with completely tight pins to get the resolution necessary on the spool to feather a fixed displacement system.  they dont drive like hydrostatic at all and if they did, skid steer manufacturers would save a BUNDLE using them instead of variable piston pumps.  



@doug..  the hill did what hills do, i cant blame it for me being a moron.  now wawayanda court on the other hand..  ill never have nothing nice to say about them.  
Great info and insight!. If I could salvage a hydrostatic drive from say a 12 HP garden tractor
I think that would be ideal. Buying a $1k pump and separate wheel motor is out of the question.
We run the mill twice a year for our own use. Our big problem is the gig speed- about 8 ft/sec. Scary
even with feathering. An option to reduce carriage speed is to replace the 18 in. cable drum with an 8 inch one.
Might have to replace wire rope with smaller size. Nearly to the point of abandoning hyd. idea.
Thanks again. Jim.

mike_belben

Actually its not as bad as you think.  You can get a new variable piston pump with the spring centering shaft gear for $130 then $20 for one half of the splined lovejoy L090 coupler.. $100 for a new fixed gear motor plus shipping.. Maybe tax, then hoses and whatever sprockets or belting to couple the motor.  Maybe $40 for the AA pump mount.  Could drive it with gas or electric.  $500 will surely do new everything except the engine.  A reservoir, filter and cooler obviously needs to be rigged up too. 


Old hydrostatic mowers used the best of parts but generally integrated the pumps and rears... Youd have quite a project separating them.  Walk behinds and zero turns did use independant components but most people arent gonna find a serviceable parts pile for less than new price at surplus center.


Jackshafting your current drum slower or dropping down in drum OD is still probably the way to go.
Praise The Lord

fluidpowerpro

The Dynamic motor is bi-directional. When they talk about converting rotation, its relative to A and B ports. If for example you now put oil into the A port, and get CW rotation, you can convert it and now put oil into the A port and get CCW rotation. Some gerotor motors are also a little more efficient in one direction vs the other, so if your application runs primarily in one direction, it would be of value to have it configured to gain the extra efficiency. In most cases it does not matter.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Jim1934

Quote from: mike_belben on June 04, 2021, 10:14:56 AM
Actually its not as bad as you think.  You can get a new variable piston pump with the spring centering shaft gear for $130 then $20 for one half of the splined lovejoy L090 coupler.. $100 for a new fixed gear motor plus shipping.. Maybe tax, then hoses and whatever sprockets or belting to couple the motor.  Maybe $40 for the AA pump mount.  Could drive it with gas or electric.  $500 will surely do new everything except the engine.  A reservoir, filter and cooler obviously needs to be rigged up too.


Old hydrostatic mowers used the best of parts but generally integrated the pumps and rears... Youd have quite a project separating them.  Walk behinds and zero turns did use independant components but most people arent gonna find a serviceable parts pile for less than new price at surplus center.


Jackshafting your current drum slower or dropping down in drum OD is still probably the way to go.
Ordered material to fabricate an 8 " cable drum. Still interested in your hydraulic solution.
Search fails to find a variable piston pump at surplus center or anywhere else for a$200 or so price.
Don't understand spring centering shaft GEAR. I thought pump would have a lever or something that operator
would use to control flow rate. I am out of my league. Thanks.

mike_belben

Items 9-8980 and 1-3615-9

@jim1934


Yes, youll have a shaft to control flow rate and direction of rotation completely variable by tilting an internal swash plate connected to the shaft. The angle of the plate dictates the plunger stroke and thus gpm output .

 You need that to be spring centering.  When you let off the action stops and it will hold your hyd motor in place.  Without spring center youd be hunting for park and creeping carriage when you miss it.
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Mike- please take a minute and see if the JD transmission in this like would work.
It looks like a pump, motor and flow control valve in one package.
Thanks again. Jim
John Deere 312 314 317 316 300 Tractor Transmission | eBay

mike_belben

Its a sunstrand 15, used in deere 140 and up into somewhere in the 400 series i believe. Also many cub cadets or maybe others, possibly bolens. I have a lot of experience with them and theyre unbreakable with 16hp or less.  But its not the route id go for that much money when you can buy all new for the same and that one might be spanked or all rusted up inside from sitting unused with oil only in the bottom.

  It is the golden standard of garden tractor pumps if that is the route you really want.  In that case...  Id find a dead deere or cub cadet hydrostaric parts machine. That way you get the whole rear with a rim or two and the driveshaft and fan hopefully.  

There will be a conventional ring and pinion on a carrier in the axle. and the pinion gear will have a large bull gear thats spined to float on the pinion shaft.  

That hydrostatic drive combo will be mounted up above the pinion and its output shaft will drive the bull gear so there is the rear end reduction ratio and the bull gear reduction ratio.  It is a very, very powerful complete axle assembly.  The carrier is made by dana.. Probably a dana 30. Big axle shafts and hubs etc.

You could weld up the carrier spider gears into a locker to make the rear into a right angle drive and then drill 5 on 4.5 wheel pattern into a sprocket.. Or use a cutout rim face to mate your belt or sprocket to for linking up to your existing cable friction drum.  

It will give impeccable feathering and control on the carriage, theyre a precise driveline, i built quite a mini construction tractor around one because its so good.


Also using the entire rear is 100 % self contained.  Youll get a fluid sump, cooling fan, filtration and filler with dipstick all in one.  Without the rear you have to make all that.  The pump input shaft is actually a thru shaft.. It can be driven from the front or the back. Use a 5/8 lovejoy coupler and drill out the set screw for a rollpin.  There is no keyway on the shaft, just rollpin holes.  


Youre engine can drive one side of the shaft and an auxiliary loader pump can be piggy backed off the other side of it. Thats how i put high pressure hydraulics on my deere 140.  
Praise The Lord

moodnacreek

That's an interesting post. I am tripping over a pump and rear end assembly from a Wheel Horse D 160 and thought it would make a good vari. feed for an edger.

mike_belben

I had a wheel horse D200 that i flipped without ever trying to run it so i cant say what is inside those.  I cant even remember it actually.  Big machine i remember that. 


Deere 140 thru 4xx will pull an outrageous amount of stone boat or sled and carry so much carriage ballast that the rims leave cutter marks no matter how much air you put in.  I mean a pallet of 1" plate steel hung all over.  Where the engine is WOT and tires cant spin and the machine just stalls in place @ WOT but nothing moves and nothing breaks.  Very very robust.  Cub 1250/1450/supercubs etc as well as old bolens eliminator 1600 series are all the same.  Real tractors sized down. 
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Thanks for the great info. Just bought a JD LT155 for $195. Engine shot. Hope it works out.
Sight unseen. Gotta go pick it up east of here.

Dangerous_Dan

I pulled this out of a Ransoms 72" mower.
The hydro drive also has a hydraulic pump built in for the steering and deck lift.
The steering cylinder now actuates the lock for left to right movement of the saw head.
The lift cylinder and the steering valve control the blade flip.


 
It's powered via belt by a 3 hp electric motor.


 
Then into a 10-1 gearbox.
With chain drive to the cable drum shaft.


 
The swashplate lever is directed to seat area with some linkages.


 
First you make it work, then you trick it out!

mike_belben

Heck yeah.  Ransomes made good lawn equipment, as did lessco.  I think both were consumed by deere eventually ..?  Not certain. 


That is a good point that i forgot to add about the hydrostatic units having an auxiliary hydraulic circuit.  It is the charge pump flow regulated up to 500-750 psi for mower deck or power steering etc etc.  Mine no longer has it because that flow is being fed at about 10psi via pen spring in the regulator port, to the inlet side of my piggy back gear pump.  Ive got it relieved to 2300 psi or so i think. 


Praise The Lord

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