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Author Topic: please help...hire orester or not?  (Read 6546 times)

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2021, 10:25:44 PM »
what is the current situation with canadian logs entering USA markets post covid mania?  is he limited to canadian bids or does it make sense to solicit mills in merica?
Good question.  From my experience as an exporter of ag commodities, I would suspect that if there are any import/export restrictions on sawlogs it would have more to do with tariffs than covid.  If the US mills were paying better, a call to my customs broker would clear things up quickly.  

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #161 on: June 16, 2021, 10:38:17 PM »
shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume 

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #162 on: June 17, 2021, 08:09:59 AM »
Its old man fun i guess.


thats funny mike, you're the same age as i. the more you be with younger people the more we get called old. we are getting old!
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #163 on: June 17, 2021, 08:48:09 AM »
shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume
Yes I think these trees are destined for overseas according to what the Logger said.
You're probably right about tree size.  The Forester that said leave them to grow lives close to Lake Ontario like me.  The Foresters that said take them sooner live 60 miles north and they said they rarely see trees this large up there.  In their words, a 20" oak up there is a (admin edit) " TREE".

One of the fellas I walked with yesterday has recent experience selling to Amex from his own woodlot.  He's supposed to be sending me a price list.  Apparently Amex will pick the logs up and transport them to QC.  They are graded and measured in QC so you still don't really know what you have until after they are off your property.  How are you even supposed to make out a bill of lading for the truck if you don't know the BDFT that gets loaded?

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #164 on: June 17, 2021, 12:05:39 PM »
You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #165 on: June 17, 2021, 12:08:20 PM »
In stuff like red oak and that you need to leave your bush thick enough to stop the trees from growing pin knots or limbs . Hard maple will do the same thing.   

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #166 on: June 17, 2021, 03:22:55 PM »
You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  
Machine I think
I have about 12" of a well drained limestone shale gravelly clay-loam topsoil over limestone shale bedrock.  Soil samples show very high calcium content.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #167 on: June 17, 2021, 09:44:32 PM »
I know your area fairly well and have walked fair amount of timberland there . The closer to the lake the better . Have seen nice red oak and big nice walnut .  Your hard maple is not going to compare with the maple here because of the ground . Cut lots of hard maple here its real hard to find the heart and wood is snow white . 

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #168 on: June 17, 2021, 11:27:29 PM »
Next time you're in the area EHP, lunch is on me.

In other news, I told our Logger friend I have a Forester coming in to mark the timber and tally the bdft he marked because I think there is more than 23,000.

Logger: I know there is way, WAY more than 23,000....the 23,000 was just a guess before I marked the bush.
Me: So then, are you gong to pay $1.35/bdft on the Forester's tally?
Logger: No That won't happen. I will scale it at my yard
Me: I'm not really any father ahead then am I?
Logger: Ok then have them mark and tally the timber by species and I will pay by species and scale it on the landing.
Me: Let's wait and see what happens next week

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #169 on: June 17, 2021, 11:29:54 PM »
Hmmmm
Too many irons in the fire

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #170 on: June 17, 2021, 11:32:26 PM »
Hmmmm
HAHAHAHA.  Kind of what I said but not exactly. More like A-HA

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #171 on: June 18, 2021, 04:46:17 AM »
Even in the current strong market $1.35 standing didn't seem to be plausible unless it was limited to veneer or included some "creative accounting".

Sell it standing with the money in your bank before a tree hits the ground and the forester protecting your interests regarding the residual stand. It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50

I have seen this scenario play out many a time. Some fast talker spouts off big numbers or averages either succeeds in conning the landowner into a high grade and or become a victim of some creative accounting. Should the landowner not sell at the time, a false expectation of what the trees were "worth" makes it impossible for an honest buyer to meet an unrealistic price per tree or per foot.

Truth is with the exception of some high quality veneer, timber is a mostly a volume business. $3-4K plus per acre stumpage usually comes from selling 8k ft/acre not 8x $1000 trees per acre. Do $1000+ trees exist; sure but mostly old growth veneer white oak and walnut and generally a component of a high volume per acre stand that has not been previously high graded. 

Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.

Things too good to be true generally are. The lure of easy money is the con artists stock in trade.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #172 on: June 18, 2021, 08:11:07 AM »
ive already told this guy to take a walk in my mind.  clearly he does what he wants and does it well enough, vague enough and to the correct crowd, to do it continually without any trouble.  Hands-off landowners are happy to be getting unexpected cash.

my experience is that an average woodlot doesnt make $1.35/bf harvested and delivered to the mill. it would be another mental planet for the stumpage to pay so well.. but i have no stumpage experience. maybe there are stands that pristine.  i dont think ive ever stood in one. 
Proverbs 19:11

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #173 on: June 18, 2021, 08:15:12 AM »
have we been talking CDN or USD?  
Proverbs 19:11

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #174 on: June 18, 2021, 08:26:42 AM »
have we been talking CDN or USD?  
CDN.  Exchange rate last I looked was about $.80 USD $1.00 CDN so $1.35 = $1.08

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #175 on: June 18, 2021, 08:33:39 AM »
Not a big difference these days on the dollar Mike . Our dollar has climbed alot sense you put your new guy in power.  I said it all along unless it's good veneer maple or walnut your not getting $1.35 a ft for standing timber . Seen guys pay $1200/1000 here for maple and there not making any money once they get the job done and lots go backwards on making money .  So to get $1.35 a ft for standing timber on a true log scale it has to be good hard maple or walnut . Even our white oak does not pay well enough to pay that for standing trees

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #176 on: June 18, 2021, 08:48:27 AM »
.....<snipped>....It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50
<snipped>....
Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.
I get that.  The idea all along has been to expose him and get the real number.  I expect the real BDFT number is about double what he said so that means $1.35 CDN is really about $.70 CDN.  No matter who does the cutting, I don't expect I will take less than $1.00/bdft for a quality tree marked by a Forester because firewood is worth $.80 tax free cash in hand.  One of my neighbor's has a similar mindset to me and he only puts the best of the best veneer logs on a truck and keeps the lesser grades for his firewood business.

Current prices loaded at roadside CAD:
Hard Maple
$1900 - $4500 Veneer
$1980 Prime + to $750 for Grade 2

Red Oak
$1300 - $1700 veneer
$1075 Prime + to $480 for Grade 2

Ash
$1075 Prime + to $325 for Grade 2

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #177 on: June 18, 2021, 09:13:03 AM »
if i was buying stumpage here where i live i think id lose my butt on anything over $200/mbf usd. 


rank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.
Proverbs 19:11

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #178 on: June 18, 2021, 09:28:17 AM »
rank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.
Tax free because my kids do the work and they're earnings are beneath the taxable limit.  All legal

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #179 on: June 18, 2021, 09:40:10 AM »
my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D
Proverbs 19:11


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