please help...hire forester or not?

[ehp]

If its going to quebecthey have a limit on size they want . If its bigger stuff they down grade it hard .  

[mike_belben]

Thanks for the reading Mike.  All that green regen in your pic....are those desirable trees?

Yes and no is the short version.  But I guess it depends on what one desires.  


My woodlot is the back 4 acre highgraded woods behind my 1acre front yard where i presently live.  I am slowly converting the back into a homesite and some livestock paddocks lined in mostly red maples or really proud looking white oaks.. Just for shade and syrup. 

 so until its "done" it is my experiment station where i do different things at different times and loosely observe the outcomes whenever i go for a walk to not strangle my children.  A light meter would correlate pretty clearly to the different species, density and growth rate results. Its old man fun i guess.



That patch was closed canopy with a dead tangled midstory and an open floor of leaf litter and black briar canes.  I cut it pretty hard for a turnaround and scraped the topsoil a few times to stop it from growing back so fast, slightly to the right of that image.  


That green clump growth i cut back a few times for a shooting lane and then let it grow back. It created a super thick hedge and i have a small foodplot and mineral site within the hedge.  My presence keeps the coyotes back a few hundred yards and does come in to fawn in it.  So for me it is all beneficial.  The songbirds, cats and critters are quite prolific now.


The tallest regen in the clump is red maple, sourwood and black gum, 10-15ft.  Chest high is a variety of oaks, sassafrass and some briars.  Theres a knee high sub-carpet of wild blueberry and sassafras underneath it all.  Briars of all heights here and there are trying to establish unsuccessfully and will soon be shaded to death except along the trail edge.   The sassafrass and any black cherry will probably also not make it. The wetter spots have a lot more tulip poplar. Thats very hearty and fast/straight.  


Over time i just prune out what i dont want. The tightly packed density keeps only fast and straight stuff in stock and growing taller every year.  Much of the regen is 20ft tall and sub 2" diameter base.  The kids literally make arrows and swords out of them all the time.


A clearcut or heavy shelterwood cutting produces thousands of sprouts, so you can just think of like a job posting where 1500 applicants are competing for 100 spaces.  Any little quirk, eliminate.  What stays will be flawless that day.  Every few years narrow the herd down again with a clearing saw.  In regen the clearing saw will sever woody stalks as fast as your eyeballs can identify them.  Too fast if youre in a hurry. 

[nativewolf]

I told the Logger that, in our opinion, the 15 acre parcel isn't ready to have 79 trees taken from it.  Too many 15" are marked and we will leave it to grown for now. I think there are a few 20"-22" in there that could go but not enough t make it worth his time.  I told him for the $7000 he is offering, they are better off standing.

The I explained by his calculations 12,000 bdft of the 35,000 bdft he proposed to log came from the parcel that is now off the table and moneywise it was ~$7000 of the $38,000 he is currently offering.  Simple subtraction tells us we are now down to $31,000 for the remaining 23,000 bdft.  He agreed, therefore we are now at $1.35/bdft but question remains how to measure volume.

He asked what it would take to make a deal on the sugarbush.  I said I don't now.  Told him he did a good job marking it based on basal area but when if he logs only good stuff, I still have to go in there and cull which might make the basal area too low, and I don't want to ask you to weed my garden for me so maybe I should cull first and you can come back in a year or two.  His response led me to believe that he might be open to bidding on it of it was marked by a Forester.  He wasn't open to that in the beginning.  

He also wants to cut another small 2-3 acre parcel.  There are some big 30 inch oaks in there but he doesn't want them.  "Too far gone" he said.  He seems to prefer them 26" and under.

The Forester I walked with yesterday does not mark with the leaves on.  Getting a 2nd opinion from another Forester this afternoon.  

Stay tuned.

Here with oak decline it is dangerous to mark with leaves off.  I left dozens of black oak that I'm having to go back and cut now that leaves are revealing very thin crowns.  Lots and lots of white oak are dying around here too.  Sad.

[stavebuyer]

Also needs to be considered that a Great Lakes Sugar Maple stand(especially one being tapped) is a completely different beast than a mid south upland oak-hickory stand.

[ehp]

And your going to see the price of standing timber drop around here as the price of lumber drops . .  Rank I'm sorry but those numbers do not add up for me . First to pay $1.35 a ft for standing timber is pretty much unheard of . Your butt log is worth so much but your second is less and the 3rd and 4th or 5th is worth alot less . Around here guys are paying $1.20 a ft for good hard maple and most are not making any money and lots are quitting cause not making any money . So on any other tree at $1.35 is a total loss so like I said before the only way they make money is to cut alot more volume to get the price per thousand down.  Here cutting what I calllow grade most times pays $1.000 per acre if forester marked . That's just a average . If its good good timber it goes up alot . 

[Clark]

If the stand is marked well, which I would define as cutting the worst first, giving room to the best growers and finally taking some of the larger trees that will either decline in quality or die before the next entry, the logger should have no problem dropping the less than merchantable stems. It can be their last step and they just leave them on the forest floor. 

Will they pay a little less? I would expect so but the job will get done and you can guarantee it is done right.

Clark

[stavebuyer]

I have only seen it practiced by one consulting forester in Southern IL who now watches from above; his sales were all "ring trees". He marked the "leave trees" by a painted circle and everything not marked was to be cut even if left to rot. Many outfits wouldn't bid on his tracts then but I guarantee the lands he managed and now being harvested are bringing a premium today with the next generation already well established.

[ehp]

Stavebuyer , you are 110% correct , if bush is marked under good forestry the junk and low grade gets cut but next time it gets cut the timber grade is a lot higher cause the junk is already gone and here we can cut again in as little as 8 years and again and again . If bush is managed properly you get a good pay check off your land every 8 to 10 years . In good forestry you end up cutting more trees per area over doing a basal cut here so most times what the land owner gets on the first cut of doing the low grade cut good forestry cut works out to be about the same in dollar value as if you let someone go in and take all the big grade trees BUT now all your grade timber is gone for quite a few years 

[rank]

It's interesting to hear the different perspective of two different Foresters.  One says leave the 18"-20" ones because they will yield more BDFT in 15-20 years.  The other says take some of the 20" high value veneer trees now and leave that 26" oak to die where it is because it will ruin too much young stock when you fall it and it's not worth much now anyway.  One says there is a market for tapped maple and the other says they bottom logs are firewood because they might have metal taps in them from decades ago.  Getting a migraine here.

At any rate, I'm going to have this Forester mark, inventory the woods next week and also estimate the BDFT that was marked by the Logger.  Also have another Logger coming to to look at the stand and perhaps bid on it.

[mike_belben]

what is the current situation with canadian logs entering USA markets post covid mania?  is he limited to canadian bids or does it make sense to solicit mills in merica?

[rank]

what is the current situation with canadian logs entering USA markets post covid mania?  is he limited to canadian bids or does it make sense to solicit mills in merica?

Good question.  From my experience as an exporter of ag commodities, I would suspect that if there are any import/export restrictions on sawlogs it would have more to do with tariffs than covid.  If the US mills were paying better, a call to my customs broker would clear things up quickly.  

[ehp]

shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume 

[teakwood]

Its old man fun i guess.

thats funny mike, you're the same age as i. the more you be with younger people the more we get called old. we are getting old!

[rank]

shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume

Yes I think these trees are destined for overseas according to what the Logger said.
You're probably right about tree size.  The Forester that said leave them to grow lives close to Lake Ontario like me.  The Foresters that said take them sooner live 60 miles north and they said they rarely see trees this large up there.  In their words, a 20" oak up there is a (admin edit) " TREE".

One of the fellas I walked with yesterday has recent experience selling to Amex from his own woodlot.  He's supposed to be sending me a price list.  Apparently Amex will pick the logs up and transport them to QC.  They are graded and measured in QC so you still don't really know what you have until after they are off your property.  How are you even supposed to make out a bill of lading for the truck if you don't know the BDFT that gets loaded?

[ehp]

You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  

[ehp]

In stuff like red oak and that you need to leave your bush thick enough to stop the trees from growing pin knots or limbs . Hard maple will do the same thing.   

[rank]

You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  

Machine I think
I have about 12" of a well drained limestone shale gravelly clay-loam topsoil over limestone shale bedrock.  Soil samples show very high calcium content.

[ehp]

I know your area fairly well and have walked fair amount of timberland there . The closer to the lake the better . Have seen nice red oak and big nice walnut .  Your hard maple is not going to compare with the maple here because of the ground . Cut lots of hard maple here its real hard to find the heart and wood is snow white . 

[rank]

Next time you're in the area EHP, lunch is on me.

In other news, I told our Logger friend I have a Forester coming in to mark the timber and tally the bdft he marked because I think there is more than 23,000.

Logger: I know there is way, WAY more than 23,000....the 23,000 was just a guess before I marked the bush.
Me: So then, are you gong to pay $1.35/bdft on the Forester's tally?
Logger: No That won't happen. I will scale it at my yard
Me: I'm not really any father ahead then am I?
Logger: Ok then have them mark and tally the timber by species and I will pay by species and scale it on the landing.
Me: Let's wait and see what happens next week

[barbender]

Hmmmm

[rank]

Hmmmm

HAHAHAHA.  Kind of what I said but not exactly. More like A-HA

[stavebuyer]

Even in the current strong market $1.35 standing didn't seem to be plausible unless it was limited to veneer or included some "creative accounting".

Sell it standing with the money in your bank before a tree hits the ground and the forester protecting your interests regarding the residual stand. It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50

I have seen this scenario play out many a time. Some fast talker spouts off big numbers or averages either succeeds in conning the landowner into a high grade and or become a victim of some creative accounting. Should the landowner not sell at the time, a false expectation of what the trees were "worth" makes it impossible for an honest buyer to meet an unrealistic price per tree or per foot.

Truth is with the exception of some high quality veneer, timber is a mostly a volume business. $3-4K plus per acre stumpage usually comes from selling 8k ft/acre not 8x $1000 trees per acre. Do $1000+ trees exist; sure but mostly old growth veneer white oak and walnut and generally a component of a high volume per acre stand that has not been previously high graded. 

Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.

Things too good to be true generally are. The lure of easy money is the con artists stock in trade.

[mike_belben]

ive already told this guy to take a walk in my mind.  clearly he does what he wants and does it well enough, vague enough and to the correct crowd, to do it continually without any trouble.  Hands-off landowners are happy to be getting unexpected cash.

my experience is that an average woodlot doesnt make $1.35/bf harvested and delivered to the mill. it would be another mental planet for the stumpage to pay so well.. but i have no stumpage experience. maybe there are stands that pristine.  i dont think ive ever stood in one. 

[mike_belben]

have we been talking CDN or USD?  

[rank]

have we been talking CDN or USD?  

CDN.  Exchange rate last I looked was about $.80 USD $1.00 CDN so $1.35 = $1.08