please help...hire forester or not?

[ehp]

Not a big difference these days on the dollar Mike . Our dollar has climbed alot sense you put your new guy in power.  I said it all along unless it's good veneer maple or walnut your not getting $1.35 a ft for standing timber . Seen guys pay $1200/1000 here for maple and there not making any money once they get the job done and lots go backwards on making money .  So to get $1.35 a ft for standing timber on a true log scale it has to be good hard maple or walnut . Even our white oak does not pay well enough to pay that for standing trees

[rank]

.....<snipped>....It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50
<snipped>....
Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.

I get that.  The idea all along has been to expose him and get the real number.  I expect the real BDFT number is about double what he said so that means $1.35 CDN is really about $.70 CDN.  No matter who does the cutting, I don't expect I will take less than $1.00/bdft for a quality tree marked by a Forester because firewood is worth $.80 tax free cash in hand.  One of my neighbor's has a similar mindset to me and he only puts the best of the best veneer logs on a truck and keeps the lesser grades for his firewood business.

Current prices loaded at roadside CAD:
Hard Maple
$1900 - $4500 Veneer
$1980 Prime + to $750 for Grade 2

Red Oak
$1300 - $1700 veneer
$1075 Prime + to $480 for Grade 2

Ash
$1075 Prime + to $325 for Grade 2

[mike_belben]

if i was buying stumpage here where i live i think id lose my butt on anything over $200/mbf usd. 


rank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.

[rank]

rank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.

Tax free because my kids do the work and they're earnings are beneath the taxable limit.  All legal

[mike_belben]

my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D

[ehp]

Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO

[rank]

Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO

I believe the tax law reads that, if employed, they need to be collecting a reasonable wage for the work being done.  Alternatively, they could also run their own business and not choose to be employed at all.  The kids are 16 yrs and 12 yrs.  I suppose if they weren't actually doing the work there would be a problem.  What's next in this country, criminalizing lemonade stands and car washes?

[rank]

my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D

HA! Exactly, they're going to get it one way or the other so I say they should earn it.

[rank]

Maybe I should start another thread for this but you guys already know what I want to do so I'll try this first.  If I decide to pick away at this cull/select cut job myself, what should I use for a skidder?  I'm thinking something that utilizes a 3PH on one of my smaller tractors.....a 8,000 lb winch off an old tow truck?  Tractor is 100 hp x 7.5 feet wide x 10,000 lbs + 1,000 lbs of weights hanging on the front.  Flat ground.

[Andries]

I'd fit up a grapple on the FEL of that tractor.
Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.
Use one that has a receiver hitch in it, and use it to pull a four wheel farm wagon with stake pockets on the rub rails.
Set up skidder trails that are tractor/wagon friendly and spaced so that they are separated by twice the length of your winch cable.
A couple of landings are where you park your wagon - fill it with your cuttings using the grapple after you skid them out of the woods between the trails.
.
DanG - it's so easy to spend other people's money!  :D 

[Southside]

Ever try to disc a field with a skidder?  They can pull like nobodys business, but they make horrible row crop machines.  Likewise farm tractors and logging don't mix well.  Lots of hazards jumping up from the ground, and more coming from the sky that John Deere Sound Guard cabs never planned for.  You think BT corn is tough on tires?  You ain't seen nothing compared to what the woods will do to them.  Plastic saddle fuel tank?  Oopsie!!

Can it be done with a tractor?  Of course.  Would it be money well spent to find and old Timber Jack for $15K that you can sell for $15K when you are done with it?  In my opinion yes.  You can use your tractor and loader on a nice, flat, landing to load logs and it won't get beat up and let the actual skidder do the woods work.  

[mike_belben]

A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.

Dont get a setup where you have to winch in then switch the chokers to hooks on your attachment.  You want to skid the whole wack on the mainline using sliders and chokers. 

Dont graft on a hydraulic winch, and especially not an electric. And dont fall for some monsterous braden salvage crane unit with no freewheel so that you have to power the cable out every time.  


A skidder is obviously the right tool for the job if u have then means. Dozers are too slow unless youre in very steep or swampy. 

[rank]

A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.

Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.

I saw one of those on my neighbor's tractor and always wondered what it was now I know lol  Thanks for the idea

[thecfarm]

How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does. 

[rank]

How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does.

The culls are less time sensitive.

>Do you have a 40 hour job?
Now that's funny.  Closer to 80 than 40.  Sometimes the winters are less.  Sometimes not.
>Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months.
Yeah I have a tendency to bite off more than I can chew.  A 7000 bdft load of ash would be about 25 trees....4 trees a day....I'd guess I could do that in a week if I made the time.  Clean up and processing the tops would take forever.
It might make sense to pay a careful logger to log the veneer (if he doesn't mark the standing tress all up) but the firewood culls I doubt makes economic sense. I have skidded logs out with a tractor, a rope and pulleys where I couldn't get a straight pull before....no winch....rig....drive ahead...rig again....drive ahead....rig again.  To heck with that.

[rank]

The Forester's came and marked what they thought should be taken without letting in too much light.  Heavy on the ash before the borer takes them.   Here's the tally from this ~22 ac parcel:

Red oak grade 1        79 trees   16,021 bfdt
Red oak grade 2        26 trees     4,916 bdft
Hard maple grade 1   24 trees     4,644 bdft
Hard maple grade 2   31 trees     5,799 bdft
White ash                118 trees   22,599 bdft
Basswood                    2 trees       374 bdft

TOTAL                      280 trees   54,353 bdft

*definition of grade 1 is a tree that should yield at least one veneer log

[stavebuyer]

rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

 

[rank]

rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

No I didn't get a valuation estimate.  Unfortunately I am left to translate the Forester's definition of grade 1 and grade 2 into Amex's grading system of Prime, select etc.  This is basically a poorly educated guess by me and in the end, I assumed that none of my saw logs will grade higher than #1.  I assume this because most of the maples are tapped and many of the oak butt logs have mysterious creases/splits in them on one side from many years ago that have healed over but will probably be a defect.

Using the Amex price list an assuming none of my saw logs go better than grade #1, I estimate ~10,000 bdft of veneer worth $13,000 and 44,000 bdft of saw logs worth $38,000 for a total of $51,000 CDN.

The Logger and the Forester marked many of the same trees....let's say 60%.  They said the Logger marked more trees than they did....that is to say he marked more than 280.

I had a 2nd Logger come in and look at what the Foresters marked.   He said he would pay me 50% of the veneer value and 33% of saw log value.  Based on my guestimates above, that equals $20,000 to me for 54,000 bdft.......$360/mbdft.  He would get ~$32,000 for the logging work.  He's a one man show I think....said it would take him a couple months.....that's 7 trees a day for 40 days and $115/tree in dollar terms.

[chep]

Prices and volumes for Logger 2 seem very reasonable to me. Sounds like he takes his time and that's a good thing for your forest

[stavebuyer]

Sometimes terminology can get confusing. True "veneer" ie 4 sides clear logs with no apparent defects which is destined to be sliced or peeled seldom makes a large percentage of any sale. Also to meet most buyers top saw log price you usually must have a minimum scaling diameter(typically 18").

Looking at your figures from 500-600 miles south I thought the initial logger was inflating the price per foot. I also thought you were being unrealistic to expect a $1 or more on the stump for a properly marked sale(non high grade)

Appalachian pricing generally is a little behind the Northern market; especially on Hard Maple and Cherry. Easy to log timber here would none the less seldom bring less than 50% of mill pricing if cut on shares and good tracts would net the landowner 60%. 

Solicit sealed bids and retain the right to reject them.

[ehp]

your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs

[BargeMonkey]

your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs

ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.

[mike_belben]

 laundry-smiley 

Sounds like loggers are gonna get hung out to dry already if thats the case.  Yet itll probably take years for retail lumber to come back to sanity

[rank]

ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.

Maybe that's why I haven't heard from Logger 1 in over a week.

[Big_eddy]

Rank

I've just now read the entire thread and a few thoughts come to mind. I'm northeast of Belleville so not too far away from you.

EHP / Mike/ Stavebuyer and the others are giving you good advice. Listen to them. They have no dog in this hunt, so they are on your side and your side alone.

Tell logger 1 to take a hike. He came to you with an opportunistic lowball offer and has been backpedaling ever since. His "ready to harvest again in 15 years" is pure and utter pulp.

I suggest you look up and consider joining the Ontario Woodlot Association. Lot's of good member in this area and good inputs to be had from property owners like you who are not desperate for cash, but want to plan for a sustainable harvest now and again in the future.

I agree 100% on your 15 acre parcel. It does not sound ready to harvest again.

Seriously look at being more aggressive on your ash. My 75 acres has little to no ash borer signs, but I have ash trees dying all around me - as little as 1/4 mile away. 5 miles away, EVERY ash is dead. You may have a year or two, but not much longer. PEC council had a presentation just the other week about the impact of the EAB on forests in the county. 80% of the firewood logs my logger is bringing us these days are ash - landowners around here are cutting most or all while there is still some value left in them.