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Seen a back cut like this?

Started by North to Alaska, July 09, 2021, 02:51:12 AM

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North to Alaska

This back cut seems somewhat common here in Alaska? It has a steep angle as it comes down just behind the face cut. I can see how it would provide more space to drive a wedge into smaller diameter trees and also help prevent the tree from falling backwards as easily. 

But after trying it myself, I realize that it is more difficult to get the cut accurately. That angle needs a bit of a learning curve to get it even and create a good hinge.

I guess, I am wondering what you think of this?

Thank you!


 
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Ianab

It's generally frowned upon. 

If you do have to seriously drive a wedge, chances are it will split a chunk out of the stump before it gets enough "lift" to tip the tree over. Then the brown stuff hits the whirly thing.  What wedges are trying to do is LIFT the back side of the trunk, not push it at 45% angle. 
 
There are other tricks to wedging small trees over that are safer and more effective. 
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Tacotodd

That steep angle looks like the first cut that "I" make on an open face cut. I find that it's easier to make that one first, then the level one to match. But yeah, I've NEVER seen THAT one on the 3rd sequence of the cutting steps.
Trying harder everyday.

Ventryjr

My dad always cut trees similar to that not quite as steep of a back cut.  He always said it stops the log from kicking back 
-2x belsaw m14s and a Lane circle mill.

grabber green


are you saying that method is common in the timber industry or common with average dudes that just left walmart with there first chainsaw? I see some stumps like that here in Tennessee and at first its funny ,then I realize it is kinda sad. If my family saw me cutting a tree like that I would have been kicked out of the family.

teakwood

It's common here, but more because nobody was ever trained in felling technics. and now this bad habit is past on and on. the loggers don't even know what a plastic wedge is.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

HemlockKing

Yeah a lot of people do it that way around here.i don’t, probably harder to pound wedges in too
A1

Ianab

Quote from: grabber green on July 09, 2021, 07:17:24 AMcommon with average dudes that just left walmart with there first chainsaw?


This. 

NO actual chainsaw training tells you to cut like that. I can see why folks might think it works, but actual physics and OSH approved training suggests otherwise. 

Grandpa cut trees like this for years, just proves he was a very lucky man.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Old Greenhorn

Whatever works for a person is not my place to judge. 
But I won't do that cut for several reasons 

1) the back cut must be perfect or you will wind up with too much or not enough hinge and quite often you don't know what thickness of hinge you need on smaller trees (or any tree) until you 'get there'.

2) the notion that this prevents 'set back' is folly. Look at the physics. You make this cut and it creates a 1/4 or so wide slot and that is where it would 'theoretically' stop the tree, but if you make a standard flat back cut you get the same 1/4" kerf and the same setback. NO difference. (If you are cutting a tree with back lean you need to have a plan to get a wedge or two in place to hold it BEFORE it begins to set back, and this method makes that very hard to do. 

3) Once you begin this cut you are committed. There is no way to adjust that hinge in any way and chase or steer the tree by adjusting the hinge as it begins to fall. 

4) driving a wedge into that back cut, assuming you can, will just make that thin  wood bend out and the tree could still break over backwards. 

5) once the tree is down, what do you do? You have to go back and cut the stump off anyway because nobody should leave a stump like that in the woods. So another wasted cut. 

6) the are several other methods for smaller trees that allow full control of the fall with wedges and those were discussed in another good thread a couple of weeks ago.

 I did just think of a certain situation where I have done (and continue to do)  this so in fairness I should mention it. When a tree is right next to an obstacle or a 'save tree' I will make this long cut IF any only if there is no easy way to just bore in the back cut. I only do this to prevent damage to my saw or the adjacent tree. 
 Bu those are just my 2 pennies and everyone gets different mileage. Just cut safe, have a plan, an escape route, and keep looking up. :) :) :)
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OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

mike_belben

Perrenial technique of those who dont know any better, who learned it from those who also didnt know any better.  

Any perceived benefits are a fantasy.   A bad cut doesnt make one a bad person, and a good person doesnt make that a good cut.  Luck shouldnt be a factor either. 
Praise The Lord

bannerd

Power company does that a lot when felling trees for a new power line.  Mark the distance and it's two cuts then keep walking from the back seat.  At the final tree you can drop that and you have a domino affect.  Or have a skidder come in and start the sequence.

Now days it's not a safe option but it still exists if you need to drop many trees fast.  Lots can go wrong from wind to a random person just showing up.  I guess if you're posted and marked well it would be a quick way to fell a bunch of trees, then run the choker down the line.

kantuckid

In my area there are several pine post mills. I know very experienced loggers who also cut pine posts and they call that technique-"jumping them off the stump". It is used mostly on smaller pines to work faster as I understand. 
Fact is that much of our area pines, especially field/black/jack pines have fallen from ice & snow storms beginning in the 1990's up to past couple winters. 
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Southside

That's not an example of stump jumping.
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kantuckid

OK, lets see one? I have an open mind... :D
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

North to Alaska

Thanks for the replies everyone.
Very good thoughts and confirming my suspicions.
I've seen it done by locals that have a lot of sawing....but are not professionals.
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Magicman

I am not a tree faller by any scope of the imagination but it's my understanding that a Humboldt undercut notch is the most predictable and will send the tree butt the furthest from the stump.  

It should not be confused with Stumpjumping:  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69713.msg1046547#msg1046547
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Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

mike_belben

In my opinion the problems with that ramp back cut are

1. Its leaving substantial footage on the stump so a bit of a fools errand in sawlogs.  Requires you to buck off a good piece of wood after to clean a sawlog once on the ground.  Wasted wood and extra step. And chain may hit the dirt bucking the triangle off. 

2. If wedging is required you are now trying to jack the tree on fewer fibers that come to a weak point, which are being loaded tangentially in a way that theyre pretty weak and springy.  Conventional wedging or jacking puts endgrain in compression which is exceptionally stout and rigid.


I could see an argument that it could help prevent a barberchair from coming out at you but being its a longer cut in linear inches, its a slower cut and thus takes more time which helps induce a chair.  The top says we are going the stump says no you arent.  Better saw fast.

 In chair happy wood a fast sharp saw and several other types of cuts would be superior without the two issues above.  Plunge in and gut the center then saw out the back or backcut in flat from the back, 2 inches above the first cut to form a stair step to lock out a chair.
Praise The Lord

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Skeans1

Quote from: Magicman on July 09, 2021, 05:30:43 PM
I am not a tree faller by any scope of the imagination but it's my understanding that a Humboldt undercut notch is the most predictable and will send the tree butt the furthest from the stump.  

It should not be confused with Stumpjumping:  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69713.msg1046547#msg1046547
It would depend on how the face is setup, depth, and if there's anything extra put on the stump or butt to get it to jump the stump.
Quote from: kantuckid on July 09, 2021, 09:25:29 AM
In my area there are several pine post mills. I know very experienced loggers who also cut pine posts and they call that technique-"jumping them off the stump". It is used mostly on smaller pines to work faster as I understand.
Fact is that much of our area pines, especially field/black/jack pines have fallen from ice & snow storms beginning in the 1990's up to past couple winters.
Stump jumping can be done a few different ways but that's farm cutting and a good way too loose a tree sideways. If I wanted to jump a stump I'm likely to put in a full faced Dutchman in my sight cut with a deep but shallow angled humboldt face with a kicker off the stump to get stuff really moving.

KEC

I was helping some guys, most of whom  I did not know, to put up some firewood for a hunting camp. When one of them went up to some fairly large trees and started dropping them with that method I gave him lots of room to work. Scary. Guys like that, I think, feel that the method is validated every time they use it and live to tell about it.

moodnacreek

It is a shame that chainsaw felling and bucking is going backwards. Todays powerful, lightweight chainsaws allow you to cut trees better than ever before. Most of my logs come in from tree service and  it makes me sick to see what they have ruined. A walnut tree, square but cut right on the ground to get below the lowest cat face could be a $500 log but busted up is a $70 7' sawlog and so it goes.

ehp

I see tons of those stumps here cause every farmer hands a off shore worker a chain saw to cut trees , they believe it makes the tree go the way they want it , yes I know but they think that and safer cause it should not split in their face , you guys have no idea on stuff I see here from guys running saws and I'm sure half of them have never ran a saw ever before 

tawilson

The last time I saw a back cut like that, the tree it was attached to was laying across my neighbors utility trailer. Luckily,  it was his tree and he did the cutting.
Tom
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Magicman

I have shown these pictures here before....and the chainsaw guy lived.


 
The first cut but it only goes about half way through the trunk.


 
The tree actually fell toward this side.  ??


 
The horizontal cut is seen on the left side of the stump.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

mike_belben

They should probably stick to chainsaw sculpting.
Praise The Lord

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