Future of wood products?

[bkellyvtme]

Where do you think the futre is for wood here in the U.S.? With all the paper plants closing, wood from over seas, declining housin market, and over regulation, where is the wood market going? Is there a futre? I have contemplated going mechanized, but if the markets disapear, what then. Do you think biomass power will be the future? I would like to hear anyones opinions or comments. ???

[Ed_K]

 I sure hope something comes of bio-mas, I'm to old to go back to a machineshop  .There's some hope as they have been talking wood chips on the news.

[ellmoe]

    Man has been using wood since he knew how. Wood will be used long after we are all gone. Be more concerned about your local market.

Mark

[Ron Wenrich]

Well, that depends on whether its hardwoods or softwoods.  Softwood markets have never been that good in my neck of the woods.  Hardwoods have always been good, and I'm not seeing anything that would indicate that it will go away.  Species will fall in and out of favor.  I'm not real high on oak markets, especially red oak.  Diffuse porous species look OK for the next several decades.

But, your problem is more how to justify more mechanization.  That's a different problem.  New skidders are well over $200K.  Justifying those kinds of costs takes a real sharp pencil.  If your production is limited, then you're choices become limited.

I'm not really sold on biomass, yet.  It is going to take a lot of investment to bring biomass on line.  A lot of guys can produce it, but there isn't anyone building cogen or stand alone plants.  That will take years, if ever.

[SwampDonkey]

Most cogen here is right on the premises of the mill site where anything that doesn't make pulp is used to generate their own power. The government here is talking of a new coal fired generator in Belldune and an environment assessment is underway at Saint John for a second 300,000 bpd oil refinery,as Irving and government have it in their heads that they are going to be the petrol hub in the east. Also, a second Lepreau Nuclear generator is in the radar. All the forest industry players are screaming murder when mention of wood for electric generation gets mentioned. But, they won't buy the junk wood, which is what would be sent to a electric plant. I guess they are afraid that more competition for fibre could drive their prices up. And I'm not so sure a steady supply could be provided from private land. We have the wood, but not everyone cuts wood or would commit to a collective delivery schedule of some kind. Sometimes we are our worst enemy. There was some talk awhile back with a marketing board trying to set something up on the Miramichi. As Ron says, it's going to be years.

[Riles]

The guys running the in-woods chippers say they have no problem selling the residue as hog fuel. The problem for them has been the wet winter, they have to put the stuff back on the trails to meet the BMPs.

[bkellyvtme]

I don't think I will have a problem keeping a "new to me" piece of equipment busy. I am just wondering with the slow down in the housing market and forign competition will put a big hit on wood prices. I had a guy tell me from Maine that there is a plant that uses chips from overseas. The ship it in by ship and then use trains to bring it to the plant. It can be done cheaper than buying it from the local guys. Seems wrong to me.

[SwampDonkey]

I had a guy tell me from Maine that there is a plant that uses chips from overseas. The ship it in by ship and then use trains to bring it to the plant. It can be done cheaper than buying it from the local guys. Seems wrong to me.

Probably Irving, but I'm not 100 % sure. They have the ships and they also have the rail network to do it. And no, it isn't right, when they are allowed to get cheap crown wood and circumvent woodlot owners by bringing in foreign wood.

[Ron Wenrich]

Proctor & Gambel did that a number of years ago.  They are using eucalyptus grown on plantations in Brazil.  They bring in processed pulp, since environmental standards are lower.  Their reason was that it gave a consistent product from all their plants.  It put a whole lot of whole tree chippers out of business.  The mills found other uses for their chips.

P&G took a big hit when it first happened and had a couple of quarters with losses.  They have recovered nicely, so it might happen with other companies, as long as their is a stable fiber base in South America.

[Ed_K]

 My sharp pencil has been broken quite a few times this weekend, I've been running a hardwood pulp side using the 4x4 landini with a 3pt winch and forestry trailer. Well Captain looked at the winch and said he'd like it. So now I'm scrambling to either replace it or find some other way to get the wood out. I was getting tired of choker's and winching but you have to have a way to get the logs to the skid road without damaging the whole stand.
Any ideas?

[Corley5]

Small forwarder ???

[Ron Wenrich]

A number of years ago, they tried to make a small yarder from a JD 540.  You still needed to set chokers, but a 2 man operation could put out a lot of wood in short order.  It never went anywhere.

[Ed_K]

 I talked with a forester friend awhile back on yarders. He had only heard of one attempt at yarding here in Ma. it never got off the ground either. I've often wondered if a excavator with the small mast and double drums they show in Western World would work here in the northeast.
At this point I'm leaning towards a winch mounted on the bucket and a grapple 3pt on back. Tis would get trees to the skid road then move to bunching area then change to the trailer and haul to main landing 5/8 mi away.

[Ron Scott]

What type of terrain are you working? A small forwarder might do the total job to the landing at least cost.

[Ed_K]

 Its all hillside, just about every job I get is steep hillsides.I just finished marking 83mbf where I need to lease a dozer this summer to cut a skid road (3 switchbacks) just to get to the timber. Sure wish log prices would move back up.Just put diamond ice chains on the back of the taylor,what a difference,now it'll pull more than the winch brake can hold.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, steep hill side logging is a different "can of worms". I suspected that's what you had.

[SwampDonkey]

Who was the guy doing the heli logging in the NE? Probably not feasible at the best of times, but interesting none the less.

What tends to be done here is they build roads to the top and use skidders to yard up to the roads, sometimes long cables. I don't like to see that type of logging, but that seems to be how loggers do it here. And those steep side hills get clearcut. You and I know full well that at the bottom of them steep hills is a brook whether it's intermittent or permanent depends on the watershed. Seen some pretty scary stuff goes on sometimes. I seen one guy with the drive shaft out of his skidder and the winch cable wrapped around a popple tree to keep from going to the bottom while he fixed the skidder. The skidder was heading up hill to the blade was of no use. My uncle carried his drive shaft up to the top landing for him. Pretty precarious situation.  Personally, I'd be telling the boss good bye. :

[Ed_K]

 A job I did 3 yrs ago I pull 12mbf of 12"-30"hemlock 200' up hill to the skidder. It sat against a 35"w/pine for 2 days and I used 65' of winch line hooked with a 75' of wire rope and all my chockers to pull it all in, took 3 more days to move it to a landing. That week I wished for $$$ and a heli machine. All for $125. a mbf  >:(.

[Cedarman]

Attended a meeting today of the Indiana Forestry and Woodland Owners Assoc.  Our speaker, Burney Fisher, former state forester, presented some very eye opening information.

One of the items mentioned was a survey being conducted in the US of the future owners of our timberland.  The generation that owns the woodland now will be dying off in the next few decades.  The new managers will be spouses, mostly women and the kids of the present owners.  They have completely different goals then the mostly men who manage the woodlands today.

Another new thing to come along is ecoservices.  The selling of conservation easements on these timberlands to protect watersheds, protect views,control erosion, carbon seguestration, make wildlife corridors etc.  These will be easements restricting some aspect of the woodland use for a fee.  Not dictated by law, but a mutual agreement between 2 parties.

In some areas that are developing quickly, the infrasructure that supports farming is leaving, (equipment dealers, fertilizer dealers etc) and farming is in decline not because there is no farmland, but uneconomical to continue because of changes in support.  The same will come to those forest lands that are divided up. Not ecomical to give the landowner much for the trees because of the difficulty of logging and transport. (Opens up opportunities for small scale logging using low impact equipment maybe. Still decreases the value of the standing trees.)

Mention was made of the huge change in east Texas with the wholesale  liquidation of industrial woodlands and the departure of the mills.  There is a big conference scheduled to figure out the future of the Texas woodlands.

Easements cover 25% of Vermont.

We are in a time of huge flux in the timber industry. 

Personally, I don't have a clue where it is all headed.  Is there a perfect storm of environmental needs, foreign wood, new owners etc brewing that will change our timber landscape more than the spotted owl?

[Woodhog]

The end has already come around here, unless the price goes up, as it is not economical to work in the woods anymore. The young workers wont even work, they are all going out west to the Oil boom...

Already I can see a tremendous difference in the number of trucks hauling wood on the road. This has taken place in about 2 years.

The equipment for sale mags are full to overflowing with ads for large iron...

I thought I read somewhere that ethanol can be produced from cellulose, can you make fuel from logs/pulp etc????

Why couldnt you turn a newsprint mill into a fuel plant??

Maybe too much chainsaw fumes in the brain here...