EClassic 2400 problem

doctorb · June 13, 2011, 10:27:10 AM

I pulled my solenoid and cleaned my air channels at the end of this season. Coat hanger and shop vac for me. I got some of the same red dust you describe out. I worked on my air channels regularly during the heating season, and did not notice the air blockages you describe. As I have written previously, with a low fire, I leave the door open (Put a stick on the switch to get the fans going) and watch the flow in the air holes. this is where the coal can be seen to glow very brightly. At the same time, you can hear the increasing roar of gasification. When the air holes demonstrate this flow, and the smoke is gasifying, its time to load the furnace and get warm.

That's my routine and I hope that it has prevented the major maitenance you described. As a question.....did you work on your air holes during the season or basically leave them to fend for themselves, thus requiring the efforts of the past months?

wayno12 · June 13, 2011, 02:34:38 PM

Doctorb, this last weekend was the 4th time I cleaned the airholes since firing up the stove in October 2010. Granted, the previous 3 cleanings consisted of a wire with a hook bent on the end that I used to pull the debris towards the holes. I had no idea that I should have gone to the lengths I did this weekend. I assumed the engineers would have been smart enough to put the air holes at he bottom of the channel where the debris could be easiy removed rather than 1"+ above the bottom which makes it impossible to remove anything below the hole. Just out of curiosity, do you also have the E Classic 2400, or an earlier model. I was wondering if maybe they changed designs. Can you check your channels the next time you clean it and see where your holes are located in reference to the bottom of the channel and whether there is more debris in the channels than you are actually pulling out with your wire and shop vac. Saturday, the wire and shop vac was my 2 method of cleaning, and that didn't come close to getting out what was actually in there.

doctorb · June 13, 2011, 02:53:24 PM

I have a 2300 and have used it for 2 full winters.

The air hole location is where you descibe it. The location is a double edged sword. By placing the air hole above the bottom of the chamber, it takes quite a bit to fully block the passage of air. If they placed it at the bottom of the air chamber, the air flow could be blocked by a smaller amount of creosote and material.

I am not sure that the dust you descibe is fully the culprit. That stuff is moved pretty easily, in my experience. It's when the gases leave a creosote build-up in the passages that I see a problem with air flow. When I am heating up the stove in the method I previously described, I sometimes see a black goo oozing out of the air hole passages and back into the firebox, where it is ignited and combusted. The first time I saw it, it scared me. Now I know that the stove is "cleaning itself" when that occurs and I am glad to see it, as the air flow seems to improve out of that airhole after it happens.

I don't think that airflow has to be perfect out of each hole either. It's a matter of getting enough air into the firebox to stimulate a good hot coal bed. Glad to hear that your efficiency has improved.

wayno12 · June 13, 2011, 03:28:40 PM

Very well stated. I'm not seeing any of the black creosote running out, even when heating with a torch. This really makes me wonder if the type of wood or different combustion qualities, affected by moisture content etc. might be affecting the cleanliness of the burn. I'm going to pay a little better attention to this and see if I can figure out what may be the contributing factor.

wayno12 · June 13, 2011, 03:34:30 PM

By the way doctorb, that is one sweet fish in your picture!

wayno12 · June 14, 2011, 09:28:31 AM

Picture 1 here shows what I got out of the holes after about 30 minutes of poking and prodding with a wire.

wayno12 · June 14, 2011, 09:34:43 AM

This second picture shows what is coming out with the air hose method of cleaning. What you see laying in the bottom of the stove is only a fraction of what has come out. This picture was taken at the very end of the process after the dust has cleared. I scrapped 3 prior loads of this stuff down into the slot in the bottom of the stove so I could take it out with the ash when I am done. There was at least 1 1/2 quarts of this stuff removed from the air channels! And I thought I was being diligent throughout the winter heating season by keeping the holes clean with a wire.

Dean186 · June 14, 2011, 10:38:05 AM

Quote from: doctorb on June 13, 2011, 02:53:24 PM
I don't think that airflow has to be perfect out of each hole either. It's a matter of getting enough air into the firebox to stimulate a good hot coal bed. Glad to hear that your efficiency has improved.

I would agree with that. The air slots to the far rear of my stove and the far most front air slots plug early in the heating season and pretty much remain plugged until spring clean out.

Dean186 · June 14, 2011, 11:18:23 AM

The firebox photos you posted are my first look inside the 2400 firebox. Interesting, thanks for posting them.

Below is a photo of the inside of the firebox of our E-classic 1400 prior to using it. The view shows the air channels inside the fire box of the E-Classic 1400. There are air slots on the side instead of holes and the slots extend all the way to the bottom of the main air channel. It looks like the bottom row, on the sides of your fire box, are also slots. I suppose the idea is for creosote to run out the bottom of the slot and the top remains open. It does seem to work pretty well on our stove.

I may try your air compressor method of cleaning and see what happens. I will post results.

wayno12 · June 15, 2011, 10:18:25 AM

Dean186, I was happy to read the picture was of your firebox new. I was thinking you whitewashed it for your spring cleaning, making the rest of us look bad. Just to note, in my firebox, there is a square tube that projects from the square hole you see in the rear of my firebox at the bottom and it extends to just in front of the slot going down into the combustion chamber. I took it out in order to make cleaning a little easier. On the bottom side of this square tubing is two rows of holes consisting of probably 20-30 holes.

wayno12 · June 15, 2011, 10:27:09 AM

Also, Dean186, I was just taking a really close look at the picture you posted. On the sides of your firebox, judging by the welds, it looks like your air slots are oblong and extend down to the bottom of your air channel. This is what I was saying they should have designed mine like. If you look at my picture, you will see my upper holes are much higher than the weld "bottom" of my air channel. This is were all the debris is collecting. From the looks of your pictures, you should not have that problem as you can clean out along the bottom. However, I see a problem with the holes on the back of your stove. My stove has holes along the bottom which definitely aided in the cleaning, but yours has none in the whole center of the rear along the bottom. To me, this looks like a perfect place for debris to accumulate. I'll look forward to the air compressor results if you get a chance to do it.

wayno12 · June 15, 2011, 10:46:05 AM

One final post to bring everything up to speed. This morning, I was standing next to my stove waiting on our new puppy to do it's business, when all of a sudden, there was a huge "woof" behind me and an a huge cloud of smoke rolled out of the back of the stove and chimney. The blower on the stove was not running at the time, my water temperature was at 187 degrees (my stove is set for 195 degree shut off), and the firebox temperature was at 435 degrees. This was obviously a buildup of pressure within the stove, and I'm thinking it happens alot more often than any of us realized. This is the second time I have witnessed this occurance since I started posting here. My air channels are perfectly clean, because I just cleaned it with the air compressor 4 days ago. My ash bed was not plugging the slot going down into the combustion chamber , because immediately after the blowback, I opened the door and though there was a very nice bed of coals, it was not compressed or blocking the outlet when I stirred them. It wasn't an ignition of flamable gas buildup within the stove when oxygen was introduced, because the stove was not running at the time, hence coals were not being stoked. I think if I had the time to watch this stove round the clock, I might see this much more often than you think. I can see now, with the amount of pressure that was released, why debris is being forced into these air holes. When this "explosion" took place, it just about brought me right out of my shorts. I *DanG near hit the ground, and this is not meant to be a joke. It was powerful enough to rattle the doors on the back of the stove. Having such a close up encounter when this took place definitely gave me a lot more information to work with. I'd be interested in knowing who else is experiencing this, or any additional feedback on it.

beenthere · June 15, 2011, 10:59:31 AM

Quotean a huge cloud of smoke rolled out of the back of the stove and chimney.

If the smoke could come out these two places, then seems there was chance for air (oxygen) to get in and set off the combustion gases.

Dean186 · June 15, 2011, 11:41:07 AM

Quote from: wayno12 on June 15, 2011, 10:27:09 AM
Also, Dean186, I was just taking a really close look at the picture you posted. On the sides of your firebox, judging by the welds, it looks like your air slots are oblong and extend down to the bottom of your air channel. This is what I was saying they should have designed mine like. If you look at my picture, you will see my upper holes are much higher than the weld "bottom" of my air channel. This is were all the debris is collecting. From the looks of your pictures, you should not have that problem as you can clean out along the bottom. However, I see a problem with the holes on the back of your stove. My stove has holes along the bottom which definitely aided in the cleaning, but yours has none in the whole center of the rear along the bottom. To me, this looks like a perfect place for debris to accumulate. I'll look forward to the air compressor results if you get a chance to do it.

Wayno12, I would agree with you about the slots extending to the bottom of the air channel. Since the design and build of the 1400 came before the 2400 I am surprised that the 2400 slots don't extend to the bottom of the air channel. Your observation about the air holes at the back of my stove makes sense. In practice though, I don't seem to get creosote build up in the holes at the back, but just along the sides and the creosote runs out the bottom of the slot pretty much as designed.

The square tube extending into the box from the rear of the E-Classic 2400 makes this design completely different from the other E-Classics. This design may be the contributing factor in the improved efficiency of the 2400. I need to see one in person.

Dean186 · June 15, 2011, 11:50:31 AM

Quote from: wayno12 on June 15, 2011, 10:46:05 AM
One final post to bring everything up to speed. This morning, I was standing next to my stove waiting on our new puppy to do it's business, when all of a sudden, there was a huge "woof" behind me and an a huge cloud of smoke rolled out of the back of the stove and chimney. The blower on the stove was not running at the time, my water temperature was at 187 degrees (my stove is set for 195 degree shut off), and the firebox temperature was at 435 degrees. This was obviously a buildup of pressure within the stove, and I'm thinking it happens alot more often than any of us realized. This is the second time I have witnessed this occurance since I started posting here. My air channels are perfectly clean, because I just cleaned it with the air compressor 4 days ago. My ash bed was not plugging the slot going down into the combustion chamber , because immediately after the blowback, I opened the door and though there was a very nice bed of coals, it was not compressed or blocking the outlet when I stirred them. It wasn't an ignition of flamable gas buildup within the stove when oxygen was introduced, because the stove was not running at the time, hence coals were not being stoked. I think if I had the time to watch this stove round the clock, I might see this much more often than you think. I can see now, with the amount of pressure that was released, why debris is being forced into these air holes. When this "explosion" took place, it just about brought me right out of my shorts. I *DanG near hit the ground, and this is not meant to be a joke. It was powerful enough to rattle the doors on the back of the stove. Having such a close up encounter when this took place definitely gave me a lot more information to work with. I'd be interested in knowing who else is experiencing this, or any additional feedback on it.

Wayno, I am very puzzled. I mean; what business is a new born puppy involved? :-\

Seriously, I have never had that situation with my stove and I can understand how it would be concerning. Wouldn't it be nice to have a factory representative from Central Boiler on this forum, if to saying nothing more than - that is normal for that stove and it doesn't hurt anything and it won't get worse. Or better yet, change out this do-hickey for this thing-a-ma-gig and no more explosions.

I will keep following this post.

wayno12 · June 15, 2011, 04:26:06 PM

I am shocked that Central Boiler doesn't offer more input on this. I should have mentioned earlier, today when the "big bang" took place, the smoke cloud was white like you'd expect. The origional incident I witness was completely red colored. So, I guess this at least tells me I removed all the red rusty colored debris from the air channels.

wayno12 · June 15, 2011, 04:58:49 PM

Quote from: beenthere on June 15, 2011, 10:59:31 AM
Quotean a huge cloud of smoke rolled out of the back of the stove and chimney.

If the smoke could come out these two places, then seems there was chance for air (oxygen) to get in and set off the combustion gases.

This would seem true, but then, the solenoids should be completely shut when stove is not running, and air would have to travel down the chimney through the tubes, into the combustion chamber, and then enter from under the coals. Now you have me wondering, are my solenoids closing completely each and every time the stove shuts down. You may have stumbled onto something. If one or both solenoids stuck open, I could see the stove drawing oxygen in until all of a sudden, ignition. Now you have given me something else to keep an eye on. Thanks for the input! There is a reason this is taking place, it just needs to be found.

whfh99 · September 01, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

I too have a CB EClassic 2400 that went online 1/8/11. I have been pleased with the performance of it, for the most part, but thought it would be much simpler to maintain. The dealer makes it out like you have to clean it often to the point of eating out of it. The area with the air vents and blower fan in the back online is completely black as well. Not sure when last heating season that happened but it is a mess. Still works okay. Dealer tried to state that I let my coal bed get too high. If I didn't keep some coals in it, the fire would go out. I have burned wood most of my life with a woodstove and bought an outdoor wood furnace because I thought it would be better. It is more efficient and keeps the mess outside but it seems it requires much more involvement than I had expected.

The heat tube bend on mind, and the fire bricks in the reaction chamber cracked as well as the air holes. Dealer provided a new air tube at no charge but made me put it in. I am burning hardwood only and trying to use as dry as wood as possible. Just fired it up a few days ago and am finding that without any heat load (only using it for domestic HW) that it builds up a lot of creosote and I am considering letting it go out until colder weather in NH arrives.

Link

doctorb · September 02, 2011, 09:08:31 AM

I recall a previous thread on the topic of summer use of OWB's for domestic hot water (DHW) only:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41487.0.html.

My recollection is that it's pretty tricky between having the fire go out and intervals of refueling the stove. It may answer some of your questions. I have not used my 2300 for DHW only in the summer. It does gall me to heat my hot water with oil for 6 months out of the year. It's the only oil I use! As I am installing a solar electric system, I will probably switch to electric hot water in the warmer months.

Oh! Welcome to the FF!

boilerman101 · September 04, 2011, 12:10:00 AM

Sounds like you are making this too hard. I also have the EClassic 2400 model with none of these issues. I believe controlling coal bed depth is very important as Dean stated. I try to keep coal bed about 1-3 inches over the air charge tube. Every time before I reload, I run the rod through the coals and up and down boths sides of the air charge tube and scrape over the side air holes with my hoe, nocking of any goo or scale. I get best gasification and highest reaction chamber temps with coal bed at this level. Highest readings usually seen after new load has been in for more than 8 hours. Under light heat load, I set the Firestar pulse to blow air for 50 seconds every 15 minutes, if wood is not real dry, every 12 minutes. It never goes out. I've never had the gas build up ignition discussed either...The decal by the door says to open the bypass for a minimum of 15 seconds before opening door and not closing the bypass for a minimum of 15 seconds after closing the door after loading, which I always do. Are you doing this?

submarinesailor · September 04, 2011, 11:00:47 AM

Quote from: doctorb on September 02, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
As I am installing a solar electric system, I will probably switch to electric hot water in the warmer months.

Doc,

Take a look at the PV systems that make electricity off the front and hot water off the back. A buddy of mine just got his certification in solar. Let me see if I can get some info.

Bruce

stratford 50 · September 04, 2011, 03:42:43 PM

I have e-classic model 2300, this will be the fourth winter of operation. It cant be stressed enough that the air holes must be kept clean. I have spent many hours cleaning the back air chamber with air compressor and shop vac.This winter I will plug the back four air holes, this is the reason why. Most of the heating season the back holes become plugged even with constant cleaning program. The rear air chamber becomes full of creosote blocking any air flow in the rear holes. What I found was that my furnace worked fine with the air holes blocked, getting enough air from properly cleaned air holes along the sides of the firebox. By covering the rear holes I will reduce/ eliminate filling the rear air chamber with ash and creosote and reduce possible air flow restrictions. Sorry for the lengthy explanation, just trying to help. Stratford 50

doctorb · September 04, 2011, 04:05:32 PM

Bruce-

Appreciate any info on solar hot water. I am not sure it's applicable to my situation, though, as the panels will be on my barm roof which is about 250 feet from my home. If me are going to discuss solar further, lets switch this to the Alternative Methods thread. Let me know and thanks in advance.

wayno12 · September 12, 2011, 09:09:43 AM

whfh99, I agree with you 100%! I was raised in a home with a indoor wood stove, and when I built my own house after moving out, I have heated with an indoor wood stove for the last 15 years until installing this OWB. I am by no means a newbie to what is required to maintain a good clean operationg wood stove. My wife laughs at me every time I get done cleaning the stove because I am so dirty. I just remind her I took the stove out of the house to make her happier. I was never, and I repeat, never near as dirty cleaning my chimney or dumping the ashes from the indoor wood stove as I am with messing with the OWB. Don't get me wrong, it works fantastic when it is working fine. It heated my 30' round above ground pool this spring and fall woderfully! It cost me about 3/4 face cord of wood per week this spring and fall to keep the water in my between 87 and 90 degrees. We were literally swimming at 11:00pm when the outside temp was 50 degrees and the water was almost 90 degrees. The stove does it's job and then some, it is just ALOT of work and it is also more work than I had expected. To all of you who keep echoing that we are over-maintaining our stoves, I totally disagree with you. I am doing only what my stove is requiring me to do, nothing more. If you thing I enjoy going out and getting covered in ash from head to waist and smell like I just crawled out of a smoker, your mistaken. Like I said, I have been around wood heat for nearly 40 years, and I know how to read a good clean operating stove. This OWB just happens to require a lot more tending to than was every suggested by my dealer.

wayno12 · September 12, 2011, 09:15:32 AM

Ron and Dean, when I snapped that picture, it was when the stove was operating normally. The solenoids were supposed to be open at the time of the picture. There was one time I was outside near the boiler and it was not running at all as the water was up to temp. All of a sudden, it sounded like a literal mini explosion, and a big plum of smoke came out the back of the stove and chimney. Hence, it did not happen against the pressure of the fan. The fan was not running at the time.