Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.

[mesquite buckeye]

I think you can get both an improved forest and more $ if you do it right. I do my own removals/salvage with regular farm equipment and a small mill. Pulling a tree here and there as they reach maturity isn't a problem for me. In fact, I can't keep up with the growth. If you consider that the premium species have been preferentially removed from the forest, I don't think increasing their relative frequency in a stand is a problem. My east 15 acres was once a pure stand of black walnut before it was cleared for agriculture. Missouri is also supposed to be a crummy place to grow cherry. Funny, I get some pretty nice ones in my woods and have seen a stack of lumber at a local mill from a perfect 30" d.

I'm not suggesting removing everything but the best species. I am suggesting keeping the best trees of whatever species you have and favoring their growth. Sorry, though, if I can get a big clear black walnut or black cherry out of a piece of my land or a defective shingle oak or a multitrunked box elder, or a cherry growing in the midst of a stand of pole elms that will be mostly dead in the next wave of dutch elm disease, I'm keeping the good ones. :snowfight1:

The area where my farm is in Missouri has a long history of high grading. The last one happened just before I got the farm. Trees were dropped on top of and crushed young red oaks, walnuts, cherries without regard to the damage created or any future forest growth. It took me 5 years just to cut up the treetops, smashed trees and just get started thinning the pole stands for better trees. I have been working this woods for over 20 years now and the quality of both the forest and the timber has improved greatly at the same time I have been getting lumber from the thinnings and removals. Making money isn't a neccesarily a crime and turning your woods into a forest preserve isn't necessarily good. I've seen many a forest held back from any harvest only to get raped and high graded when the land changes hands. If that same forest had been managed and had timely removals, the big trees wouldn't have accumulated to the point that the high graders are attracted to it. They do leave all the big junk trees though, for what that is worth. >:(

[SwampDonkey]

I'm not afraid to cut good timber, like fir and aspen. They are short lived anyway. Use'm or loose'm. Also a nice spruce or a yellow birch here and there. After all, why bother just cutting junk. Your never getting any reward. I've cut cherry and butternut as well, there's still all kinds because I didn't go out on a mission to cut them all down or high grade them. Cherry up here is pretty much a junk tree anyway, you might get an 8' log once in awhile. Black knot hits it hard. Makes burl wood, which I have a few growing now. Worth more than the tree in the right market and if it's quality figure. ;D Ontario banned cutting of butternut because of the canker, no such laws here in NB. We don't have that canker around here that I've seen. I see more butternut get damaged by ice storms and wind than anything else.

[mesquite buckeye]

The reward for cutting junk trees is increased growth in the trees that you don't cut. You don't even have to use them. Mulch and soil fertility are a good end uses. The nutrients get recycled when the junk trees die, more water and more light for the trees left.

An old forester told me, "The best way to plant a great forest is with an axe."

Does require a bit of patience. If you don't have a lot of patience, growing trees probably won't be your forte. ;D 8) 8)

If your vision is where you want to be in 20-40 years, you have potential to grow a great forest. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Maybe if you leave'm on the ground they might make mulch by 30 years. I thinned my whole woodlot, lots of stuff on the ground. And my saw cut it to. It will be all 'in' the ground, gone, by ten years. Up here, if you left all the junk behind in mature timber 70% or more would be on the ground. A nice mess. ;D If you did it on Crown land you would be arrested for waste.  My reward is to be able to use the wood, it's what was meant to be.  And since I don't practice clear cutting, I have lots of trees to look at and think of what I'll be needing them for.

[mesquite buckeye]

I think our rot rates are probably twice yours. We will see most forest debris up to about 6" diameter gone in 5 years. bigger stuff other than rot resistant species are mostly gone in 10. I've seen some pretty big snags of debris completely disappear remarkably quickly. These spots are prime locations for wild turkey nesting (we have lots of them) as well as our #1 spots for the establishment of new cherry trees. The down tops keep the deer off of them until they get tall enough to survive the deer. Open grown cherry seedlings get wiped out. We do have a very large whitetail population here. ;D 8) 8) 8)

Important take home lesson. Nature is not neat. One person's debris disaster is a habitat for several of the little people (animals) who live there. Too bad that people who live in government offices don't spend enough time out in the woods to begin to understand how things really work. I am glad you take care of your own land, SD. The world needs more of us. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[Andy B.]

SD and mb,

You sound like my kind of guys!  ;D

Andy B.

[SwampDonkey]

Fir and spruce take longer to rot than hardwoods, but if it's small stems then it's gone in 10. Big softwood is mush by 15, but still in tact until you step on it and slice clean through it. :D Cedar lasts decades.

You guys have a longer growing season down south, so only seems right it rots quicker. Stuff stand stills when it's frozen solid. ;D

Here in NB, Timber Management branch is in conflict with the wildlife biologists. Go to their office building and find more Irving trucks than DNR. The provincial wildlife biologist I know is a frustrated fellow. For years, wildlife management was spelled deer. They set aside winter areas, now they are cut or just falling down because the winter habitat type for deer up here was found to be old softwood, especially with old man's beard lichen. The same that fed the woodland caribou. You cut an old fir in the winter, covered in that lichen, and watch the deer go after it.

[banksiana]

Looks like I am coming into this discussion late, but I can add something of value I think.  I just got back from a week of studying and looking at oak regeneration techniques in the ridge and valley province and the Appalachian plateau province of Pennsylvania.  I think that we sometimes need to step back and examine the sole purpose of silviculture, and that is to regenerate a natural and valuable stand of timber.  Oak happens to be a tree that needs even age management.  Cutting what we may perceive as being a future valuable tree in a stand is looking at a small snapshot of what is really a bigger picture.  Cutting that small tree is directly related to the shade tolerance of a species and trying to prepare the stand for a change.  Forget about that tree and look to what is going to grow up under the canopy of the stand.  The stand likely needs light manipulation to flush the advanced regeneration and prepare it for an overstory removal.  There is some pretty new information on oak regeneration.  I am sure some of you are familiar with the USDA publication "Prescribing Regeneration Treatments for Mixed-Oak Forests in the Mid-Atlantic Region."  If not, I suggest you look it up.  I don't have the time right now to get into it deeper, but I may have some time later.   

[mesquite buckeye]

I think regenerating intolerant species is easier in the western parts of the Eastern Deciduous Forest with the lower tree stand densities we get. Drought is a powerful scythe.

[BluenoseLogger]

Thanks, Ron (Wenrich) for your replies in this thread. Food for thought. I do think that the average person's insight as to what to cut, if they are practising amateur silviculture, may lead to average or bad results, not good results. Not being elitist here, even though I have had my own woodlot for decades (5th decade now) I have for quite a few years now asked for professional advice from forestry professionals. Not only have I learned a lot but I also noticed how many times my own initial assumptions were contradicted by their advice. :-)

SwampDonkey, I hear you, I'm in Nova Scotia, Irving and their ilk are a problem here too. I also similar attitudes when it comes to what to cut, I do get North Nova Forest Owners Coop advice and it's well taken but some areas on my woodlot are no-brainers. If you've got one patch of several acres of mostly spruce, super packed, it's not rocket science to take out the dead standing ones (which are still typically solid and burn well) and then thin some more with standing green ones, not really much deliberation needed. Nothing I've done on my woodlot over the decades seems to have disinclined wildlife to show up, including deer, and possibly has helped.

I also have a lot of ash which grows quickly, along with birch, at the edges of open areas - lawns/fields and forest roads. I get a decent percentage of my firewood every year by simply felling every Nth ash of decent size, and after I'm done you can't even tell trees are missing. :-)

I'm definitely not in the business of making my woodlot look like a European managed forest or an Irving tree plantation, I like for people to look at it and think that it's natural. So lots of deadfall and snags, whether spruce/fir or poplars or birch or whatever. You'll also see my property dotted with lots of spruce branch piles, and I have to assume that's good shelter for something. :-)

[Banjo picker]

Guess I missis this one back over the years, glad it came back to the top.  Banjo

[LeeB]

I missed it the first go around also. Read it all last night. Second edition.  :D

[Banjo picker]

After reading the thread, I got on ebay and looked at the books mentioned.  I wanted to get the book Ron had suggested, but it has went up quite a bit in price, but I scored the other The Practice of Silviculture by David M. Smith 1986 edition for $3.99 postage and all.  Said it looked never used and still had the dust jacket.  Probably over printed it.  For 4 bucks I cant go wrong.  Thanks for all you folks that made this 2013 thread.  I know my woods needs work and I am doing the best I know how to remove trees of lesser value and let the better ones remain.  I only cut the good stuff when I have an order that requires it.  I have a custormer that orders 100 2 x 6 x 8 each month of hardwood.  Thats where I am using the crooked and bad leaners, as you can work with a bad log when its only 8 ft. long.  It is helping but thats not a lot of wood either. Pulp market here is severely depressed. Banjo

[livemusic]

Yes, this thread is right down my alley. I even started threads on this forum about this very subject and I never saw this thread to my knowledge.

[Anderson]

I am also glad this floated back to the top, I just read through and appreciated hearing from some experienced folks sharing their wisdom.

We have 8 wooded acres ourselves and I would love to figure out a plan to ensure the next generation of trees starts off on the right foot.

Off to look for the books recommended!

Thanks everyone. 8)