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Turning Down Sawing Jobs

Started by Magicman, April 18, 2015, 06:35:51 PM

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Magicman

I have stated many times that I neither make a pre-survey of sawing jobs nor do I refuse/decline sawing jobs.  Then this week I stated in a reply in the Whatcha Sawing thread that I refused a job.  I did not say why which generated questions. 

OK, the caller wanted utility poles sawed which is reason enough to refuse a job.  He said "they are not creosote" but I still said no.  I saw lotsa stuff, but not treated poles.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Klicker

2006 LT 40 HD

redbeard

Logs from the beach and power poles get a big No! Why? because I have learned my lessons.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

Larry

Does this mean you won't saw old railroad ties either? ;D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

rooster 58

I saws only new railroad ties, before they're treated ;D

YellowHammer

That's not refusing a job, that's just refusing skin burns, respiratory problems, painful splinters, nails, and itchy eyes.  At least that's what happens the one and only time I tried it.   ;D ;D
YH
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

logboy

I currently have a small job I regret not turning down. I made the mistake of not asking the diameters and lengths of the logs they wanted cut before they showed up.  I usually demand that they put a tape measure on it and get me hard measurements before I agree to anything. It was a learning moment for me to never assume the sizes are what they say they are, even if its coming from someone who owns a sawmill. When it comes to slabbing, other peoples version of "huge" can be my definition of firewood, which turns into a headache on my end.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

SawyerBrown

Great advice, logboy.  In my experience, logs are much smaller than people's first impression.  That's why I too ask for dimensions.  Most time I also ask them to send me a picture or two.  Lots of things caught early -- limbs still attached, sawing site, other obstacles.  Also many times people have long logs, and I can give them some advice on how to cut it up.  Makes it so much smoother on sawing day (most of the time, at least).  I typically don't turn down jobs, but I have delayed until they're really ready.

One thing that amazes me -- many, many times, people have no idea of the difference between diameter and circumference. 
  "My log is 24" around." 
  "So it's only about 8" in diameter?"
  "What do you mean diameter?"
  "Across ..."
  "Yeah, it's about 24" around."
  "OK ...  Send me a picture, will you?"
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Magicman

Correct Larry.   ;D

I often ask for both the diameter and the circumference to be sure that I know the log's size.  People often do not know or understand but pictures do not lie.   
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

logboy

I buy a lot of urban trees so I get that problem as well.

"Not to insult your intelligence, but is it 48" in diameter or circumference? Is it 48" around or across? They're not the same."

I have to ask. People also think that because their log is really big that its automatically nice. Its not. If its full of limbs from top to bottom that will make the slabs curl up in the kiln, then its just a really big piece of firewood. I cant buy something that I cant turn around and make money on. I'm a business, not a charity. Sometimes people have a hard time getting past that. That or they saw a $10,000 slab table on TV and want me to pay that for their log. Its frustrating at times.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

YellowHammer

Quote from: SawyerBrown on April 19, 2015, 02:16:10 PM
  "My log is 24" around." 
  "So it's only about 8" in diameter?"
  "What do you mean diameter?"
  "Across ..."
  "Yeah, it's about 24" around."
  "OK ...  Send me a picture, will you?"
smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
Or such as his weekend...
"I've got a log so huge I can barely lift it!  Must be at least 36 inches long!" ;D



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

red oaks lumber

over the years i have learned to say no. if it looks bad it won't get better :) i figure they have to drive back home any way .
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Magicman

Yup, I very often tell folks that I can not make good lumber out of bad logs.  Can not make chicken pie out of chicken droppings.   ;D

It is nice sometimes to throw a castaway on the sawmill that even to the customer looks really bad and turn out something nice.  I will do that occasionally after the job is done and I see a cutoff end, etc. that might have some nice crotch wood or might make some nice slabs for stools or a bench.  "No charge, just my tip to you".  I smile and say thanks when they say "and this is my tip to you".   ;)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

logboy

As I always say, you cannot get veneer from pulpwood.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

Nomad

     I see, hear, get all the above.  Customers are amazing.  I had a guy want wood for 900' of rail fence and wood for pole barn with stalls for 4 horses.  When I went to look at the job he showed me 1 standing pine tree and said "What do you think?"
     First I pointed out that the tree has to be cut down before I can mill it.  Then I gave him a business card with a log scale on the back.  Suggested he measure the tree, get an idea of how much lumber is in it, and call his contractor to see how many bf he'll need.  I haven't heard back from him. :D
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

SawyerBrown

The other one I heard the other day was a guy who thought his tree was about 36" in diameter.  "Yeah, I'm not sure I could get my arms around it."

Felt like saying, "Well, if you could, you might want to try out for the NBA, because with a 9' wingspan, you could probably dunk flat-footed!"   ;D

(But I didn't of course)
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Brad_bb

MM, the customer said it was not Creosote treated.  Did he say it was treated another way or did you assume that?  I ask because I know another member of the forum here has utility poles cut by a local sawyer for him- for timber framing and other uses.  I think he said that some are untreated cedar.  He showed me how to tell and where they use cedar as opposed to treated.  He's got some nice clean 8X8's from them. 

All I'm saying is that just because it was a utility pole, doesn't automatically mean it's treated...according to what he showed me.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Magicman

Yes, he said that they were "brown treated".  This method uses an oil and preservatives other than creosote.  This method bridged the gap between creosote and the "green treated" poles that are presently used.

Since our location here has an abundance of SYP, treated poles have always been the normal.  I know of no instance where Western Cedar has ever been imported and used here.  Matter of fact, my first knowledge of such was here on the FF.  (Remember that I spent over 32 years in the telephone industry so I am familiar with pole line construction/maintenance.)

I am sure that I could have said "yes" and successfully sawed his poles, but sometimes it is easier to just say no.  That freed me from having to deal with dirt, nails, staples, & other possible hardware.

There is another thing that most folks do no know/understand about treated poles.  The treatment only penetrates the outside and bottom/top couple of inches.  The exposed inside wood will rot just as quickly as any other SYP wood.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Larry

Brad, western red cedar is most commonly used for transmission line poles because of there large size.  The biggest I have ever seen was 110 feet long.  All poles have a brand mark located about eye level once the pole is in the ground.  The brand has all kinds of information.  Year the pole was treated, treatment company, treatment used, and birth date.  Sometimes other information is included.  The treatment used can be a code that would not make sense to the layman.

Somewhere about 20 years ago Kansas City Power & Light Co. bought a WM to recycle there old poles.  At the time they were lauded for there green approach to pole disposal.  Later the operation was contracted out and was in operation as of a few years ago....may still be going.  Lumber from the WRC poles is always in high demand.

I also had a friend that worked as a contractor doing high line work.  I asked him one time if he had ever came across a WRC pole with no treatment and the answer was no.  Sometimes the pole is treated heavier on the big end to same money.

In any case I would never use any pole that came from a utility company for a interior use.  No matter what the brand mark says, the pole could have later had a field Osmose treatment.  Some of those chemicals are pretty nasty.  If you ever see a hole in a pole with a small aluminum cylinder the pole was treated by Osmose.  The aluminum cylinder holds a gas which is released when the cylinder is inserted into the pole.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

logboy

I've lathe turned dozens of Western Red Cedar utility poles with a lathe setup I built for my Lucas Mill.  We use them for log rolling logs in lumberjack sports.



The butts that go in the ground are always treated. Its usually not creosote, but some other nasty chemical that smells like a mix of gasoline, diesel fuel, and motor oil. I believe its called penta. It penetrates a few inches into the wood but usually not to the very center. At ground level they put in the poison canisters that Larry talked about. They then cap the hole with a wooden plug.  It leaches out and kills the critters that munch on the pole where the air meets the ground, the main point where they seem to degrade and fail.  Here is one I just found out in the barn that was fished out of a pole.



Above this point the only thing you'll usually have to contend with is metal, and the occasional epoxy patch job to fix a woodpecker hole. Aside from that its no different than sawing a western red cedar tree. I do a lot of horse trading with another mill in town that saws semi loads of these poles. The pole companies keep recycling WRC poles until they are too small. They have been run through the debarker again to clean them up like new, but when they dont meet minimum size the pole supplier gets rid of them. There are no chemicals in them.

The pine poles we have around here are treated from top to bottom. You couldnt pay me enough to saw them.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

Brucer

14 years ago the local power company switched from a 2500 volt distribution system to a 25,000 volt distribution system. They had to replace all their 35' poles with 45' poles, all WRC. These poles are only treated on the butt ends.

The power company hired a guy to deal with the old poles. He sawed off the treated butts and turned them back over to the utility for "safe" disposal -- they didn't want anyone coming after them with a lawsuit. The guy had a huge grinder and was being paid by the pole to turn them into chips and sawdust. However, he was free to do anything else he could think of to make more money.

So, he called me, and I went to have a look. Thousands and thousands of poles. He would build me a log deck :). He would load it each morning before I go there :). He would take all the slabs and grind them up :). I would remove any metal from the poles :(. I would pay him a small amount per pole, remove the wood, and sell it for whatever I could get for it >:(. "A good deal for both of us", he said.

I said no ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Chuck White

Looks like a real good opportunity!   smiley_thumbsup
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

SawyerBrown

Ironically, I had a couple of guys stop by just yesterday at the kiln build, they have a bunch of big WRC poles that they want sawn into lumber.  They're just the "tops" (so they say) ...  I don't have any experience with this at all ... and re-reading this thread I'm still not sure whether WRC poles are treated, just the bottoms, etc.  Or is there lots of variation in that too?  Can you tell by looking at them?  (smelling them?  other?)  I may go have a look on Monday.

I kind of hate turning down this job -- they also have a big pile of walnut logs that they might want sawn, as well as other species.  That was another interesting story -- apparently some guy marked a bunch of walnut trees for cutting, paid $13k, and said he'd be back for the logs.  That was about 2 1/2 years ago.  They've tried calling this guy, he never returns phone calls, so they're ready to get them out of their yard!

Oh, when I mentioned about paying for blades if I hit nails/etc, they talked about another guy sawing right through aluminum -- now I know what they were hitting. 
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Chuck White

Sawing through aluminum is a lot different than sawing through regular nail or horseshoes.

Looks like might be a good job to jump into, lots of sawing with different species.

Make sure they get a clear understanding of what happens when you hit metal.

Might be wise to use a written contract.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

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