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Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

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tburch

@YellowHammer I like where you left the bark on initially.  Makes handling a big log much less of a chore.   Also, some time ago, I realized that every board I cut didn't have to have parallel edges throughout it's length.   I've done several fine furniture projects with wedge shaped boards.  

How wide is that board your left hand is on?  

In your first picture, I see, at the back left in your photo, under the shed, what looks to be big pallets or a board stack with tall stickers.  What is that?  My first thought was that they are pallets, queued up, for the next batch of sawn boards you cut to sticker on.  (which would be a great idea)

Peterson 10" WPF with slabber. Cooks AC36 Diesel.
'94 Ford 4830 Diesel 2WD & FEL.  Norse 450 skid winch.  Logrite fetching arch.  Fransgard Forestry Grapple.

teakwood

One of the most interesting threads on the FF, i have learned so much from it. Thanks for sharing 
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

WDH

Quote from: customsawyer on June 07, 2018, 05:42:54 AM
I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching.
I must be good luck.  I can be hired to watch ;D.  Better yet, I will trade out some watching for some of your walnut logs cut_tree.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

The bigger logs have been yielding true non pith full S4S boards 12 inch to 18 inch wide.  Most customers have never seen QS boards this wide.  The thing is, these super wide QS boards stay flat and true whereas a flatsawn board this wide would have cup.  

The board in the picture is probably a 15 inch wide, maybe, hard to tell.  My hand is about 7-8 inches wide in that picture.  I've also got some real wide, 20 inch QS boards from the log I milled up the day before.  They will be a shade narrower when I edge them.  

The nice thing about this technique is it allows me to get the widest boards possible because it's not a step by step process, it's flexible enough to get the big boards when they present themselves.  The average width of my QS boards has gone up vs conventional techniques.  I don't know what the average width is, but we have a top rack full of none less than 12 inch. I try to not get narrower than 4 inches. 

One of the most important things about this technique, as demonstrated on this big log, is I never had to handle conventional quarters manually, and I never had to lay my hands on the log half from start to finish.  Once it's on the mill, it's all hydraulics, and old school hydraulics at that. 

Also, some may remember how I said I didn't like to Anchorseal logs when I knew I would QS them.  This log is a prime example.  The radial splits are a blueprint on where to cut.  Only after the boards are deadstacked, do I pack saw the boards to 8 feet long and Anchorseal.  

You are correct Tburch, those are pallets staged for use.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

caveman

Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
Caveman

PA_Walnut

Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PMQuestion, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  


I'm guessing he will say, "Yes". My process is the same--we've tried stickering right off the mill, but even with 3 people on that end, can't keep up. For me, I like the zen of stacking and stickering...gives me a chance to better scrutinize and/or mark boards.

Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D



I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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scsmith42

Quote from: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 05:34:27 AM
Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PMQuestion, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  




Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D




And I've sold all of the 16+ inchers that we've milled for that price too!

You can't see much ray fleck due to the photo angle but here is a 20" QSWO board.  The biggest challenge with the extremely large logs is that they usually have some defects in them (spalted sapwood, bugs, etc), because few people want to remove a 50"+ oak tree unless they have to.








That looks like some gorgeous QSWO!

For 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.





Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

WDH

Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

PA_Walnut

Quote from: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:39:15 AMFor 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.


I try to saw anything over 12-14" as 5/4. However, often bend the rules for qsawn since its stable.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

scsmith42

Quote from: WDH on June 08, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
It might but the drying time is so much longer.  I have not had any problems selling it as 5/4.  Usually folks making either tables, cabinets, or using it for a single panel in a frame and panel door.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
I saw alone most times, and deadstack everything.  With the drag back, roller table and a pallet, I just whittle until the log is gone and I don't want to stop to sticker.  With QS wood, I don't want to lose my rhythm and lose the fleck.   Much like the video 123Maxbars made, at 15:00 minutes or so, I'm pulling the boards back pretty constantly as Customsawyer is doing.    
EPIC SAWMILL WEEKEND IN GEORGIA, WOOD-MIZER LT70 SAWING PINE AND SYCAMORE - YouTube

Also, I don't pre buck long logs that I QS so most every log will be longer than my pallet.  Even though I get a lot of very good logs, such as what made this stack of QS white oak, there are inevitable boards that will have knots.  

Since our standard board length is 8 feet, I don't want to just pack saw this stack and get what I get, as it randomly came off the saw, I want to quickly inspect each board so that the best 8 foot section gets put on the pallet, even if it means I have to spin some boards around.  Then when I pack saw them after sticking, I have an entire pallet of high value, dead clean, no knot, full length 8 footers and pallet of lesser quality, lower value short boards that may have a knot or other defect in them that I can clean up if I have to.  




A 2 foot diameter log is about the smallest I'd quartersaw.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

caveman

Thank you for your thorough explanation.  John and I have quite a few live oak logs to saw if we ever get enough space to stack more wood.  Some may be candidates for quarter sawing but with a manual mill, that becomes a laborious endeavor.
Caveman

boonesyard

I just read this entire thread, watched all the videos, studied all the pics. WOW, did I learn a lot!! I've got a load of white oak coming in and a fair amount of red and white oak we'll be cutting this year. I cannot wait to try this method of QSing on some of the nicer logs. Thanks YH for your all the wonderful info, what a forum.
LT50 wide
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iDRY Standard kiln
BMS 250/BMT 250
JD 4520 w/FEL
Cat TH255 Telehandler
lots of support equipment and not enough time

"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"

YellowHammer

Glad to help.  You might practice on some lower value logs before you start whittling on the high dollar ones.  The method works great. I was just dressing some RRQS ambrosia 8/4 sycamore this afternoon and it looked so nice I snapped a picture.  Let me know if we can help or answer questions.



 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

boardmaker

YH,

That Sycamore looks awesome. 

boonesyard

LT50 wide
Riehl Steel Edger
iDRY Standard kiln
BMS 250/BMT 250
JD 4520 w/FEL
Cat TH255 Telehandler
lots of support equipment and not enough time

"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"

curved-wood

Is your elm has special wood grain when cut quater saw ? The elm around here (Québec ) has a beautifull grain when flat saw. Very prone to twisting specially those big one that grow in the open field; the grain is twisted like a steel cable, I guess it help for wind resistance.

boonesyard

I've never QS elm, thinking about it now would be a waste of time. None of it is very clear and it is really nice looking in flat sawn slabs.
LT50 wide
Riehl Steel Edger
iDRY Standard kiln
BMS 250/BMT 250
JD 4520 w/FEL
Cat TH255 Telehandler
lots of support equipment and not enough time

"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"

Darrel

My experience with quarter sawing elm is limited to the middle cuts when slabbing. In my way of thinking, the flat sawn slabs look much nicer and have more character. 
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

kennymcd

As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.

 

doc henderson

Kenny welcome to the forum.  it is nice to have friends around the world.  I am not sure of a nice concise video, but someone here will have some info.  Thanks for posting you question.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

WV Sawmiller

  I have read and re-read this thread a number of times meaning to try it sometime. Well I have a customer on my backlog with some big red oak and he only wants quartersawn lumber so I ran a test case today using a 12' stock RO log I had. It was really a bit small for quarter sawing at 19" SED and it has been down nearly 2 years with very punky sapwood. The pith was a little off center to boot. I made a shallow cut on all 4 sides then cut a 7-1/4" cant off the top, I cut 4- 4/4 boards out of the middle leaving a 5-1/4" cant on the bottom. My camera battery was dead so I stopped sawing, put the battery on charge and went and mowed my grass while topping up the battery. After finishing mowing the yard (about an hour) I had enough battery juice to take a few pictures and resumed sawing.


 One cant ready to saw, 4 center cuts to be edged and another cant on the arms.



 I'm getting some nice fleck but not real wide boards.



 I sawed the first cant and edged the center boards then put this cant on the mill. When I looked at my sharpie lines I realized I had the cant backwards/upside down.



 I reversed it and got my blade about parallel to my sharpie marks (may not can see them here)



 I cut off a pie shape and found the fleck


 When finished I probably had wasted way more than I should. My yield was only 96 bf and that included saving boards down to 3" wide but they were full of fleck. I found edging was harder because I did not have any true 90 degree cuts to stand the flitches vertical. Also I see the throat depth on my LT35 can be a limiting factor on how wide a cant I can cut and resulting boards I will get.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Den-Den

Quote from: kennymcd on April 24, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.

 

If these guys are experienced and confident, you are likely taking the wrong approach when telling them HOW to quartersaw.  Would be better to listen to WHY they don't ($$$) and tell them WHY they should ($$$).
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

WV Sawmiller

Kennymcd,

  Are you just buying the lumber or supplying any equipment and training? If you are just buying the lumber I'd quote a price for the quartersawn lumber then reject anything that does not make the grade. Do you have a rep there inspecting the lumber before it is loaded and shipped? I'd suggest that if you are not going over yourself.

  What kind of equipment are they using (Big commercial bandmills or something similar to ours with 26-36 inch cuts). I saw some pretty decent lumber made by free-hand sawing with chainsaws over there. I was in Doaula and our office overlooked the port. I remember huge stacks of logs staged there to ship and remember some where one log completely filled the truck bed. We visited the CAR and on our last day we went to a French run sawmill there. They used a big band mill - bands looked to be at least 12" wide. Are they sawing in Douala. Yaounde, or other locations? Good luck. I sure miss being over there.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

YellowHammer

WV,
One of the trade off when QSawing is the number of center cut boards that are taken because that detracts from the overall thickness of the remaining cant, which dictates the width of any resulting QS boards.  It's important to take the pith out, but for a log that size, I would probably limit to 2 center cut boards, and use the extra inches for the cant thickness. This would be the same in any QS technique, as the remaining cant was only 5 1/4" thick, whether it was RR or conventionally split into quarters.  The RR technique can take them at the hypotenuse angle so may yield a couple 6" wide, but they are still not going to be real wide.

The best QS candidate for smaller logs is a very off center pith so that the one side will yield wide boards, although the other side will yield narrower.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

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