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The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread

Started by mike_belben, September 06, 2021, 04:24:28 PM

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moodnacreek

Well Mike I'm really glad you are interested in soil, ignored by thousands. I wasted a lot of compost from sawdust and bark. It's not that I don't know any better, it's that i can't do it all. We raised the kids on wild game and the garden. We used to trap and fish and of course I have sawed lumber and built with it for quite some time. I plowed the garden this spring after spreading manure and black dirt from the same. We had many large tomatoes, 1 was 2 lbs. 8 oz. and perfect inside. The corn did good also and is not done yet.  Good for you building up the soil on you land. It is what a man should be doing.

mike_belben

Thanks doug, i appreciate it.  Ive never been able to grow a tomato beyond the size of a tennis ball and i think i figured out why today.  My plants were still producing golf ball cherry tomatoes but only good enough for chicken feed so i ripped them out to turn the knee high wild grass and weed cover crop in.  

The middle of all my mater stalks was brown and gooey from a bacterial wilt. I aim to beat it without chemicals, which will validate or invalidate a lot of what im reading -the sciency people are split on the matter.  We'll see which side i believe.

They say history repeats itself.  My kids should be alive to nearly the 2100s. Theres a plethora of chances for hard times between now and then so the idea here is lets learn to get by with what we got. Food is priceless in a famine.  
Praise The Lord

Southside

Thought of this thread when I was checking cows today.  Right now I have them in an area that a few years ago was nothing more than green briars, leaf litter, and ground soft enough that you better be careful because you were going to sink a boot several times walking across it.  It needs some work on the timber side, but time has not allowed that to happen yet.  Mostly stunted Maple, some Sycamore, and a few dead ash.  Hard to believe it looking at them but according to some historical aerial photos I have researched these trees are at least 60 years old.  It is low ground, with a creek that runs through it, approximately 1500 acres of drainage above it, so not a tremendous amount.  The top soil is measured in feet here, mostly because it belonged to someone else in the past and has migrated to my land over time. After one storm I found a few new sand beaches, some were 150' long, 30' wide, and 3' deep.  Not much opening in the canopy as you can see here.




So a few years ago the ground was green briars and years of leaf litter, some green sprigs of forage here and there, but not much at all.  I have about 20 acres in this bottom and used it at first for shade for the cows when they were rotating through other fields.  They did stomp around, eat the poison ivy and briars, and little forage that was there, but mostly they just smashed the leaves into the soil and exposed the dirt to the sunlight.  I have never dropped a single seed in this area, not an ounce of lime or fertilizer.  This is what it looks like today.  




The hoof action allowed the existing seed bank to germinate what was there, the little bit of sun getting through the canopy was enough to allow the soil microbes to transition to a forage growing environment, and the resulting root masses firmed up the soil to the point where neither I nor the cows break through the surface.  Being low and wet it's sub irrigated as a result, has tons of humus in the soil to retain moisture and keep the ground from getting too hot in the middle of the summer.  

I am getting over 300 cows days per acre now, grazing every 45-60 days. The plan was to incorporate some Reed Canary Grass seed in this fall but the drought in the mid west means no seed. But for middle of October I am pretty happy with this free forage.


 

They eat it like spaghetti.



 

They also strip off the shrubs and other lower leaves that will keep coming back, so it's a win win.



 

That is a perfect pie, so the nutrition is spot on.



 

Best part is for tax purposes this is considered "un-usable ground". Guess because I can't loose money on it growing soybeans.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

I am convinced the creator designed this planet for roaming flocks and herds, and removing them is the start of "unsustainable"

 
Praise The Lord

Wudman

@southside I do believe that is Japanese Stiltgrass that your cows are munching on.  Glad that is a good forage.  You will have plenty of it in the lowground that has been opened up.  I had an auditor point it out to me during my last audit.  It looks very similar to smartweed and will get a little seed head that looks like crabgrass.  I've noticed it everywhere in my travels since it was pointed out.  

Wud
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

mike_belben

in late 2017 i strip mined this low spot for clay to build a useable pad up above on the slope i own.  i went down nearly to bedrock and built a small pond because this draw has seasonal water flow and isnt useful for much else. the pond continually leaked and i was about to dive into the mudhole every time i couldnt find a kid, so i filled it in with woodchips and concrete demo.  i mean a lot of demo.  just enough dirt to cover the concrete and rebar.





4 years later it has plenty of young, healthy topsoil and lush vegetation with pretty good roots.  no matter how much of a torrent comes through here it doesnt rut up like other grassy spots would. id say it has recovered pretty well, and i now understand a lot more about the dynamics of lowland site index.  im no longer too concerned about the omg crisis of topsoil loss.  it is easily rebuilt, is my personal finding.

this is the same spot where the pond was, now the most level patch i own. i have crimped this twice i think, and its grown in thicker and lusher each time.  i have not mowed or prevented seedhead in any way.  the slope drops down as the yard comes to a point with the fence and the high ground to the right,  you can see 5ft high late warm season grass just past that tree, hiding the small sediment collection pond that is just to the second tree dead center in the pic.





we had a doozy of a rain event a few weeks ago where i was able to prove that my drainage ditching and 2 sequential erosion control micro ponds are functioning correctly so as not to lose any dirt from anything but an extended hurricane.  this spot gets excellent mid to late day sun and behind me, "upstream" is where i compost the leaves since the water flow naturally washes them in.


well, i decided to turn it under and start improving it for the coming summer, see if i can get away from the fusarium on the other side of the yard or not. im thinking clover but not entirely decided yet.  







ive had lots of 2wd garden tractors.  none can compare to a properly weighted king quad 300 with good rubber, not even close.  this has super low and 4 wheel complete lock, air cooling is its only real crutch, fans are on the way.  ive got about $1500 in the quad now and it can pull like a 4wd tractor or zip 30mph down the street with the shift of a lever.  only thing they dont have is a PTO.  

that said, you plow guys can see its not cutting right.  the plow share is too centered behind the machine. so say im travelling north. when i put the tires in the first furrow, im cutting a new independent furrow that is too far to the west. instead of just cutting a little more of the first furrows western bank and kicking it to the east and filling in right behind the passenger tire, i am instead starting a whole new separate furrow with a 6 to 10 inch strip of grass between the two.  the second furrows spoils are being flung up ontop the grass strip above the original grade height, not thrown into and filling in the first furrow like it should.

so under each of those peaks, is a foot wide strip of ground that hasnt been turned over. and i just cant get the blade to get under the hard ground, itll track into a soft furrow everytime unless i crosscut the whole thing again which i wont bother with. i will add compost and microbes and let them break up the compaction between each row through the winter.  i surfed on a a chisel plow while boy pulled me over the tops to knock them down but its a mess, that just grabbed soddy turf clumps and brought them to the edge.  i will compost those over the winter too, and spread it back on in spring when its soft and loose.




i need to make another mount with a lot more offset to get the furrow closer to the passenger tire track.  keep in mind this is sleeve hitch and its drifts around at the pivot, trailing side to side, its not a 3 point that stays locked behind the machine so if it encounters a root or hard patch its gonna scooch off track. gotta limit the expectations a bit.

the other issue was clogging. lots of clogging.





i think its 1- a toy plow with a toy coulter that hardly cuts a sod line ahead of the share, 2- no way to adjust the coulter low enough and still have clearance, or enough weight for a deep coulter cut unless boy skis on the back of it, which he loves, and 3- the share and moldboard was all rusty which doesnt flow spoils well at all. dirt sticks then stops up the works. so i had boy wirebrushing for a while then i polished it up with a flapdisk and he oiled.  i also recut the edge on the share to a razor. that did cut a lot better









no more stuck dirt all day.  i eventually just took the coulter off, it created more problems than it solved.

but still the offset is an issue.  i cut some off my drawbar brackets to allow offsetting toward the passenger side as far as i could and double pinning it to be rigid jointed to the drawbar.  better but its still not perfect. need to make another drawbar where that square tube sticks out to the sides like a universal tool bar.






i do have a real coulter from something else i made way back and it will slip into the brinley frames so i will give that a try next year, and also fab a trash board for over the top of the mold board.  the quad can pull very fast compared to a tractor and really fling some stuff. a trash board will help ensure its turned under better i think.

 




i have a heavy cat 1 single bottom trip plow and some other attachments i traded to my brother that i may buy back if he wants to part with them. that is if turning over proves to be a wise choice.  the topsoil is less than 4 years old and was soft down to about 3 or 4 inches where i hit a black hardpan, i am crediting that softness to microbial action. im gonna work in a lot more organic matter and microbes and see what happens to that hardpan subsoil a year from now. im expecting it to break up and continually gain fertility.

granted i know this is all tiny scale, but a wise man once said invest your time before your money.  i think this is the sort of thing he meant.  figure out how stuff really works before you throw your 401k at it.  im convinced national sickness is absolutely related to our soil condition and food choices.
Praise The Lord

Southside

@Wudman according to Google that is Japanese Silt Grass, however just for giggles I also tried the last image I posted above.  The screenshot won't post but it labeled the last photo as being a "Texas Pocket Gopher". 

Don't want to know what them Texas boys walk around with all day long.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Wudman

Quote from: Southside on October 12, 2021, 05:58:59 PM
according to Google that is Japanese Silt Grass, however just for giggles I also tried the last image I posted above.  The screenshot won't post but it labeled the last photo as being a "Texas Pocket Gopher".

Don't want to know what them Texas boys walk around with all day long.  :D
They are just carrying a little fertilizer with them as they go! ;D ;D
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

mike_belben

what kinda clover would you guys plant for an overwinter cover crop ?  i may still have chickens or end up with more pigs by then to feed it to, as a secondary consideration.
Praise The Lord

newoodguy78

I went with red clover, not saying it's right but it's in the ground and growing.
Curious on input as far as how big it needs to be before the fear of getting killed by frost is

Southside

Red should be a perinnial and won't winter kill. For a southern cover crop I would plant Crimson.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Roxie

Say when

mike_belben

Biology and Benefits

these two videos are really good and summarize pretty well what im trying to get a handle on. the more i research (particularly with family health issues going on at home) the more i come to conclude that "science" is not all knowing, and is not in consensus.  there are many still unknowns, not understood's, conflicting results, and disputed's.  so i read both sides then try to dabble in and observe my own experiments and see what happens, figure out which side of any dispute to believe in based on those results.  if i cant verify it myself i am slow to believe in it anymore. 
Praise The Lord

Nebraska

@Southside  I have an abundance of Reed Canary grass you may have all you want. I cannot effectively graze it.  Not a favorite. 

Southside

Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

newoodguy78


SwampDonkey

Good composted manure, other broken down compost, composted peat and lime will sure help the ground. Keep the wood ashes out if your growing root crops or it will be the most scabby mess you've ever seen and the soil will get harder. The old garden here was run out from neglect, now got up to 8 lb squash and zucchini sized cukes, peppers and tomatoes by the barrel on a 25 x 25 ft plot along with three 4 x 8' framed beds. Shame all the waste, but 2 people can only eat so much and preserve so much and I don't run 'meals on wheels' pedalling veg. that nobody asked for. ;D

Bedrock here is calcareous shales, it was definitely under the ocean once and the elevation here is not very high. The prairies are a lot higher up than here. There are area with granite knobs glaciers even carried them here on top of the ground and others full of sandstone to the south from the Pennsylvanian era. There is even a subterranean river under the main river to the south where there is a earthquake fault line near there. And the Grand Pass down there never freezes in winter by Currie Mountain. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: mike_belben on October 17, 2021, 12:14:28 PM
the more i come to conclude that "science" is not all knowing, and is not in consensus.  there are many still unknowns, not understood's, conflicting results, and disputed's.  
Well there is science then there is anecdotes to. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_belben

Think im getting closer to a frost risk for crimson clover and decided to get some winter wheat and austrian winter peas just in case today.  I guess ill mix em all up, broadcast and run em in with the tires.  Thoughts?

Will probably chop it all up for chicken feed in the spring.  They can rake through the wheat straw and it should become bedding before composting into the ground.
Praise The Lord

Southside

They will all survive frost.  Will wilt at some point and if they are not big enough when it gets hard frost may die back to the ground but the crown will come back when things begin to warm up again.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

crimson clover ? Sustainable Market Farming

This lady runs an informative cover crop site i dont want to lose.  

I put 2 garden beds into a mix of winter wheat, crimson clover and austrian winter pea.  then laid out my other bed in 10 rows of brassicas and overseeded the top of the whole thing in crimson clover.

  The idea is that i will let it all grow up together and step on the clover in between the rows.. Thinning everything out to the chickens.  I just dont want to go into winter with a bunch of bare soil on a hill. It rains here all winter. Dont care if the clover just gets trampled, thats mostly what its for.  Will see how that goes. 
Praise The Lord

newoodguy78

White clover planted on the the walkways in the spring is something to remember 

mike_belben






I built a spraybar using the smallest jets on the shelf because of the small pump, thinking it may not have the snot- but seems okay on test run today.  Doesnt quite get full coverage between the stripes but if i lift the bar much higher to increase coverage,  the ground isnt getting wet enough at the slowest pace i can manage.  

You think bigger jets will allow running faster at higher elevation the way my logic is telling me it will?  Im only spraying compost tea to help innoculate seed and increase soil microbial life.



Praise The Lord

Southside

That should work very well for you.  A friend brought back an old, runout farm doing exactly that.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Thanks jim, thats encouraging.  Any idea what his brew procedure was?
Praise The Lord

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