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Dating Viking Settlement in Nth America with wood scraps

Started by Ianab, October 21, 2021, 02:04:15 AM

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Ianab

Vikings were in North America by 1021 CE | Ars Technica

Basically scientists have been able to pinpoint the occupation of a Viking settlement in Newfoundland to 1021. 

Method? It's known that there was a big solar flare in 992-3 AD, it was recorded at the time, and caused a spike in the Carbon 14 in the atmosphere. Any wood that was laid down in a tree in that year is slightly more radioactive than usual. This has been confirmed by looking at samples of old trees, that growth ring has a higher than expected C14 content, compared to the previous and later years. That is also one reason why C14 dating is not 100% accurate, as the C14 in the air varies slightly from year to year, but the spike in 993 is well documented. 

So they examined scraps of wood excavated around the settlement site, picking ones that have been cut with steel tools (so not Natives or natural), and had the cambium / bark layer attached. Then looking back though the growth rings they until the found the 993 growth ring. Counting back gave them the precise year the tree was cut down. All three samples were felled in 1021.  Doesn't say exactly when they arrived or left, just that they were working in that spot over 1021. Conventional carbon dating isn't that accurate, and put the samples between 1019 and 1024. 

So "Things you can learn from a little scrap of wood".  :P
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SwampDonkey

Reminds me of an interview on a Joe Rogan podcast over a year ago with a sort of historian. The guest said, "why do we celebrate Columbus day? He never discovered a *DanG thing". :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Old Greenhorn

Everybody should know that Colombus had a Norwegian map, but they still don't really teach that in schools as they should. This is great news and will keep me smiling all day today. 8) 

I had always wanted to ask my relatives about this, but alas, they are all gone now, so things like this will have to do. I am glad carbon dating continues to evolve. This means the the Vikings were in NA 25 years before the Battle of Hastings, roughly 2 generations and at the height of their reach and influence. 1066 is when things started going downhill for them and fall apart, as I recall.

There is a local fella here who has spent the better part of 40 years woalking these hills and among other things, finding every peat bog in the catskills, mapping them, and probing samples from the bottom of each which he has had radio carbon dating done on the plant matter by species. From this he has built a picture of what the forest were comprised of going back many thousand years and how it developed over centuries looking at the different levels. Then he combined that with the other evidence of past burns, species shapes, densities, locations, habitat, elevations, etc. to fill out the picture. This is all organized in a book he wrote in 2001 called The Catskills; A History and is one of my most treasured volumes. In fact I am re-reading it now. The results of his nearly half century of walking these hills has also given him enough knowledge and material to produce several other books tracing the history of the various railroads and industries in our small mountain range. As well he is a fascinating guy (for me) to listen to. I have only met him once and chatted, but won't miss any public appearances again if I can help it.

But I digress, this is great news and I shall think about this all day. I always knew they had a settlement on these shores, what I always wondered about was why they left? Perhaps they knew, even then, that the taxes would get too high in a short time and the governments of the various subdivisions would be run by idiots? :D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
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Tom King

Being a sailor, I'm not surprised at all.  There's a pull to keep going, and I think it would be especially strong in aggressive ones, like the Vikings.  They were always looking for better ground, and willing to risk their lives for it.

Funny, just yesterday, a friend sent me this link:

Vinland Map Identified as 20th-Century Forgery | History | Smithsonian Magazine

WV Sawmiller

   I just remember it struck me odd to see all the different hair colors and facial features in Kristiansand Norway when I worked a project there 2007-2009. There were blondes, redheads, black hair, Asian eyes, European skin tones, etc. I assume the mixture was all due to successful Viking raids. :D
Howard Green
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on October 21, 2021, 07:47:32 AMwhat I always wondered about was why they left?
The answer to that question is simple enough......they ran out of toilet tissue.  ;D
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Hilltop366

It is believed that the Vikings had been in my area around the same time, there have been some artifacts found and markings a stone along the coast. The local high school teams are known as the Vikings.

Sedgehammer

It was known in Italy about the 'new world' long before 'Columbus' found it. Besides that, pretty sure those that were here already 'found' it.  :D

There's evidence that prior were here now over 24,000 years ago. That even a sea fairing people had found south America 1,000s of years before the vikings 'found' the west

Pretty cool either way
Necessity is the engine of drive

WDH

Yes, humans found the America's many millennia before even the Vikings. Our history is very Euro-centric, another manifestation of the "Myth of Central Position".  
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Tacotodd

Quote from: Magicman on October 21, 2021, 08:25:50 AM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on October 21, 2021, 07:47:32 AMwhat I always wondered about was why they left?
The answer to that question is simple enough......they ran out of toilet tissue.  ;D
Too funny  :D ;D
Trying harder everyday.

Don P

History had to wait for the Spanish to bring the corncob north.

Don P

Of course Vikings, being yankees, couldn't abide grits so it took an Italian calling it polenta for it all to work out. Christopher Columbus was actually Italian, so there you go, follow the grits.

GAB

Dating Viking settlements using wood samples to food in 11 entries.
Is that a record?
GAB
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sawguy21

@Don P now that is funny! I find this all quite fascinating, my mothers ancestors were from northern Germany near the Danish border my fathers from northern England yet Ancestry.com tells me I am mostly Norwegian with a smattering of Danish and Swedish thrown in so I have to assume I am a descendant of Viking raiders.
I suspect a small group of fishermen could not sustain themselves in such a harsh environment and without fresh young settlers including women to replenish the group they would simply die off. Also by that time the Scandinavians were converting to Christianity and taking up farming, the warrior way of life was disappearing.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Don P

Mine just got tired of commuting to Scotland every spring and set up housekeeping there. By the time they got here or shortly thereafter they had acquired an appreciation of grits and corncobs. So they stayed.

barbender

Everyone is trashing on Columbus these days. His discoveries were a huge event and there is no getting around that. The Vikings were here, but for whatever reason disappeared and prompted no further exploration. I'm of part Native ancestry, I probably come from this from a different angle. I get sick of hearing my relatives whining about Columbus and "genocide" he committed, "stealing" Native land blah blah. With current historical interpretation, if another tribe invaded, tortured, mutilated and killed most of the invaded except for women and children they kidnapped, that was merely "inter-tribal warfare". Europeans come in, make a treaty and displace a tribe and are vilified, even if they didn't kill anyone. I realize there was plenty of double dealing, broken promises, and atrocities aplenty but I really tire of the narrative of the peaceful natives who never had any impact on the earth living their idyllic in tune with nature lives until the big wasteful selfish white man came it ruined it. All that to say, I like Christopher Columbus😁
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

I was going to do one of the Ancestry.com DNA samples or something but I'm afraid I might overload their system. I've been described as having a "highly variable genetic background"😂
Too many irons in the fire

WDH

That means that you have a lot of "Hybrid Vigor" which is a highly valuable selective trait!!
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

WV Sawmiller

  My favorite observation was "When the Europeans came to America they found the Indian tribes where the men hunted and fished all day and the women did all the rest of the work. And they worked hard to change this system - what were they thinking?" :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

barbender

WV one of my uncles used to have a plaque on his wall to that effect 😂

Danny, I'd read that term "high degree of genetic variability", and I thought, "hey, that's me!" but being a logger and a simple person I never had an opportunity to use my newly learned term. Well, one time my wife and kids and I were at a graduation party. I was visiting with an acquaintance that is college educated. As we conversed, my kids would walk by randomly (we have 5), they all have a very different appearance. From one white blond haired, blue eyed girl to one daughter that has dark skin and very curly hair. This lady finally paused and asked, "was that another one if your kids?" When I told her it was, she said, "you guys must have a high degree of genetic variability!"😂😂 I could've just hugged her😂
Too many irons in the fire

GAB

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on October 21, 2021, 12:31:57 PM
 My favorite observation was "When the Europeans came to America they found the Indian tribes where the men hunted and fished all day and the women did all the rest of the work. And they worked hard to change this system - what were they thinking?" :D
Howard:
Simple answer to your question - They weren't.
GAB
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Ianab

Quote from: sawguy21 on October 21, 2021, 11:27:03 AMI suspect a small group of fishermen could not sustain themselves in such a harsh environment and without fresh young settlers including women to replenish the group they would simply die off. Also by that time the Scandinavians were converting to Christianity and taking up farming, the warrior way of life was disappearing.


There are records from shortly after that time that document the "adventures" of those explorers. It seems that they had a falling out with the Locals, and got into some skirmishes with them. While they had the better weapons, they were outnumbered, some of them got killed, and the rest basically decided to cut their losses and go home. They thought the land was good enough, but they didn't have the forces to take control of it from the locals, and it would have been an ongoing war to try. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

farmfromkansas

 Stories I have heard from the old country lead me to think that some of my female ancestors were actually from the Danish. They say the origination of the term "best man" was the guy that went along and kept the family busy while you grabbed the girl and headed for the boat. And the meaning of the "honeymoon", is that the grooms family furnished enough mead to keep the "bride" drunk for a month. Appears the Scots were raiding the Swedes when the Vikings were off raiding. Would be interesting for those of us who are of Scottish descent to get tested.
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

barbender

Yeah, human genetics are a big mishmash. No population is "pure", what is ethnicity more than a language and culture? How much Slavic blood is present in Germans? For instance, I was reading about a German WWII General, Heinz Guderian. He came from the West Prussian area that is now part of Poland. This area had been in Polish hands before, and Poland had invited immigrants from Armenia in the past. So it has been suggested that Guderian was actually of Armenian ancestry (it is an Armenian sounding name), which was somewhat of an embarrassment at that time. All of this to say, people have moved, been kidnapped, bought and sold, led conquering parties, and myriad other ways to mix genetics up that no population is "pure" anything. I find it all fascinating!
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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