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Quarter sawing tutorial with pics

Started by OneWithWood, October 29, 2007, 11:55:13 AM

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Captain

I'll agree with Kelvin, on the big ones I shoot for 3rds with the swingmill as well.  Easier to pull a beam or tie out of the middle.

Captain

TexasTimbers

OWW thanks for the pics and not forgetting to post 'em. :)

Another great thread by everyone.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Max sawdust

Quote from: Brad_S. on October 29, 2007, 09:05:42 PM
My opinion is that both methods illustrated above result in too much rift sawn and not enough quarter sawn. I use the method illustrated by Urbanloggers diagram in this link.
http://www.scottbanbury.com/qsawmethod2.pdf


Urbanlogger methods work best for me too ;D . I often use method #1.
http://www.scottbanbury.com/qsawmethod1.pdf

Before I had my mill a hired sawyer, use the "traditional" WM method to QS some 26" oak for me. I was shocked at the waste, you have by the time you edge all those tiny little trapezoids :o

Reading the log, and making sure you are staying parallel to the heart is of the utmost importance. I will take  slabs of the get the heart parallel and make some flats to work with.  Keep in mind I mill Red Oak so I saw for flake, and will adjust techniques once the log is open to maximize the amount of flake.

Beenthere, You will need to stop in some time and QS a RO with you method ;)

Kelvin, I will need to try your method.  It addresses important issues for me.

max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

BBTom

When sawing large logs I use the octogon method, but will keep any board that makes at least 2 1/2" wide.  I do charge a premium for Qsawing and my customers have been very happy with the results. 

Keeping in mind that I am custom sawing their logs, not mine.  I don't get paid for what I throw away.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

dad2nine

Quote from: beenthere on October 29, 2007, 06:49:18 PM
OWW
I drew lines on one of your quarters, showing how I helped quarter saw red oak, after first quartering the log as you showed.


We put a table on the bunks and clamped it, and it had a fence with a 1" lip on one side.


The log quarters would just rest against that fence. The saw was set for 1" lumber, and not moved. After each pass, the quarter was flipped to the other flat face, making narrower lumber each time, all with a waney edge. Sawed each quarter that way until there was no 1" wide cutting left.

Very little waste, and the best high quality wood just below the bark was available to go into the cutting. Did get some crook after drying due to growth stresses, but it goes with quarter sawn lumber. Recovery from a log was great.

That is exactly the way I QS, I get 1 maybe 2 boards from each quarter with some pith that I trim out later. You can usually spot the pith right off, it usually shows up as a crack the length of the board, I saw that out.

I take boards off the bottom of the quarter flip and take the next board off the bottom, repeat.... till there is nothing left. You can also edge while you going, take a thin cut off the top which will be the edge for you next board when you flip the quarter. For 4/4 thick boards I edge cut on the 1/2" marks. lets say for example the face that is dog side measures 9" at it's narrowest point, set the saw head at 8 1/2" and take some bark off. when that face is bed side, set the head at 4/4 off the bed and you'll cut a clean edged board. Two cuts for every board, if you edge on the mill. I found this the best way to produce the widest boards with QS grain. I've tried other methods but they don't seem to yield as much QS grain you usally end up with a small percentage of QS and mostly rift.

Although I've yet to meet a perfectly round tree - by reading the rings on the log ends, usually a loose formed oval in sycamore and square in oak. It's important to line it up good for sawing the log in half. While cutting lumber from the quarters, you may want to take 2 or 3 boards off a quarter face to keep the grain as close as possible to 90 degrees before taking a board off the other face.  I've found the closer the grain is to 90 degrees with the board face the more intense the ray flake. And it's the ray flake that most people look for when buying QS boards. Of course this works well with good straight logs, one with slight spiral grain or a light crook will be more and saw a pray.

One more thing I've learned, some species are more forgiving than others. Sycamore starts to loose it's flake at about 75 degrees but white oak will still show some flake all the way down to about 60 degrees. So when sawing for appearance (ray flake) it's important to read the grain and flip the quarters when appropriate to bring the growth rings back as close as possible to 90 degrees this will show the widest flake.

There seems to be 101 different ways to QS a log, it's best to find one that works best for you and your equipment and stick with it.

Thanks

rfalk

Great idea on making the edging cut before flipping the quarters...I have the first quarter of a large white oak on my mill (had to use my chainsaw mill to cut the log in quarters as my bandmill isn't powerful enough to get through 30" of frozen white oak)....will try it out. Thanks, bob
Wood engineer, woodworker, chainsaw miller, bandsaw miller, all around lover of wood.
Stihl 026, 361, 076 AV

dad2nine

Quote from: Kelvin on October 30, 2007, 08:42:46 AM
Howdy all,
I call OWW method "bastard quartersawing" (sorry about that) and use it primarily on woods that don't show big rays, like cherry, walnut, maple, and undersized oak logs.  We use Bibbyman's method of the octogon to good sucess, but i'd like to add one thing, don't cut in 1/2, cut 1/3 and 2/3rds.  I learned this from ripping big logs with my chainsaw.  I quickly found out i was ruining the best lumber.  Same with ripping a log in 1/2.  You usually have to straighten afterwards as the logs tension will pull it out of true.  I think this really helps on us guys not running supers or diesels which run smaller cuts.  After taking off the 1/3, if flip the 2/3 chunk 90 degrees and rip out the middle for what i see the best 90 degree boards.  THis will include the pith.  Cut the pith off, square up the piece and saw out the widest best QS boards.  THan proceed to cut the wedges as deemed fit based on size.  If you can get moderately wide boards out of "pies" flip them and saw.  I will always throw away 2 rift sawn boards to get one excellent QS board.  Rift sawn brings flat sawn prices and QS sawn brings the premium.  This results in less full width cuts of big logs that my machine with its 25hp kohler doesn't like to do.
Hope you understand description.
KP

Kevin you right sometimes the quarters do want to bow or raise up on one end or the other. But I've found no more than 1/4" if you can mill the quarters right away. Leave the quarters sit for a few days and they do all sorts of weird things. The way I remedy this, is the first board off each quarter face are cut thicker, I'll then go back and resaw those two bards to final thickness. It's not uncommon for me to cut  first boards @ 5/4 and resawn back to 4/4 before I load the next quarter. This also help eliminate any waves I may have had during the initial splitting.

You are also right quarter and rift sawn boards should fetch a premium, there's quite a bit more machine time involved than boxing the heart and sawing down to the bed.

OneWithWood

Here is a pic of a sample from the red maple I quartered.

Question:
Is this the normal rays you would expect from a quarter sawn red maple or is there more going on here?  Curl? Some other type of figure?

One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

WDH

OWW,

Looks like the perfect Q-sawn board.  You split the rays perfectly :).  It looks suspiciously like there is some curl in that board.  If I could be so lucky ;).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ARKANSAWYER


  The way you cut can mean more boards or more recovery.  That being said just because a board is qsawn does not make it worth more money.  You take time and saw out them pies and make a pile of narrow qsawn boards that will bow and when dried and straight lined produce a 3 inch wide board you will not be making money.  If you have to edge the pith and bark off every board you will not be making more money.  If you loose 20% of the log tring to not make a flat or rift sawn board you will not be making money.  I can sell a rift sawn board with out any problem.  Matter of fact any furniture builder will tell you that they make the best legs from rift sawn lumber.  Stiles and rails are better from rift.  So do not be afraid to make some.
  The way Bibby showed you will produce more qsawn boards that can be used of the best width and you will not lose much time or lumber.   If you just piddle around and get just one log a year to qsawn then it is not much of a big deal.  If you are trying to make  a little coin and take a log that could be worth more if qsawn then production and product have to come to play.  All methods produce qsawn lumber but being able to read the log and tell which ones are fit to qsaw is a different matter.  You can get some qsawn boards out of a 12 inch log but are they worth the effort?  Most of the time I will not even consider any thing less the 16 inches then only take the middle 3 boards.   I do not even waste time taking any board out of a pie that will  not make a 6 inch or wider board.  If you take the boards out of the middle like in Bibbys photo then leave them whole while drying you will get less bowing in the boards.  Also if you leave off any edging or trimming till the board is dry you may loose kiln space but you can rip out wider boards.

ARKANSAWYER

dad2nine

Here's a sample from a load of QS sycamore we ran through Scott Kiln back in the summer. Left the bark on one edge of the boards. Sold them that way people were happy. Scott did such a good job drying, I think we have next to zero defect coming out of the kiln - no warp, twist or bow and if I recall correctly only 2 boards had very minor end checking. It was as good as it get no doubt about it...



ARKANSAWYER - your right, there are 101 different ways to QS - we need to consider them and determine which best fits our equipment and production schedules. But I believe if your shooting for appearance (ray flake) the general idea is the same. Try and line up the end grain as close as possible to 90 degrees with the face. If your not concerned about producing ray flake then rift sawing is beast of another color.

Black Locust example: end grain as close as possible to 90 degrees with the face



I do disagree with stopping @ 6" width - I'll try and stop at 4" wide, but if the flake is still strong and the grade is high I'll go ahead and cut a 3"er there are lots of uses for 3" lumber while building a piece of furniture. Shoot most panel glue ups consist of glued up narrow boards anyways.

As for fetching a premium - without a doubt QS lumber is a better product than flatsawn. Not only in appearance but in structural integrity. It sure does kiln dry with less defect too- Scott Smith can chime in here...

On another topic  - I've often wondered why the NHLA handbook says nothing about rift, only quartered and flat - anyone know why or did I overlook something while reading it?

Thanks

scsmith42

Jeff, you know that I LOVE to dry QS!

I've got around 1,500 bd ft in the kiln right now; about 1/3 of it QS and the rest FL.  The QS dries a bit slower, but much flatter and with just about zero degrade.

Keep it coming, Jeff!

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

dad2nine


Larry

My way.

Saw parallel to the bark and knock off some of the ugly and sapwood.  Makes for easier sawing later as your going into clean wood with no edging later.




Level the log with the toeboard so I can saw parallel to the pith.  I figure I can get two boards above and below the pith, which will show good figure in this log.  My band had sawn about 300 foot and I wanted a sharp band for the next step.  I will be sawing white oak 22" wide with only 16 horsepower.  First cut is 2 1/4" above the pith and when I pull the top slab off I see the promise of good figure on the bottom side of the board.  One slight problem...my log has made friends with a barb wire fence many years ago.  Little break to put on a new band and my log is now 3' shorter.  Shim cut and I get 5 boards out of the center that show good figure.  Couple only show figure on one side.  And several show an attractive blue/black stain on one end...can I charge extra for that?








Think maybe Arkie maybe was the first some years ago that suggested leaving the pith in until the boards dry to reduce the crook.  He was most right in my experience.




I take the top third and bottom thirds...stand em up and saw together.  Saw down to the log stops and flip em over, than saw to the deck.  I'm not to much into sawing pies unless the log is really big and shows a lot of ray.   












Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

snowman

I am pretty new at this milling thing and have not yet tried quarter sawing. Onewithwoods method is the easiest to understand I've seen yet. I'll try it as soon as I can get into my job site which is STILL snowed in. :( Dang global warming ya know. :D

TexasTimbers

I like most if not all the ways described here in this thread. Some really great methods. I never would have thought so many existed.

For those of you who might not have seen the thread OWW was referring to in his initial post up top, it's in the Crash of 2007 Archives. You have to log in and go to the Sawmill Section. It's the 4th thread down.

I'll post those pictures here, of my more-wasteful, much-less-efficient method so it can be part of the scrutiny also, and for another reason. The wood you see here being quartersawn is the wood I sent to GOI (the artist known as getoverit, for any come-laters) from which he made his masterpiece of a guitar, also shown below. OWW, I'm making this post to try and tie this whole thing together - quartersawming and geetar makin. Goes hand in hand I think.  :)











And the resulting masterpiece created by GOI, freeing the flame boxelder from it's long years of silence . . . .

















The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

metalspinner

Tex,
Those red arrows you drew on there point perfectly to the direction your saw should be sawin'. :D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

TexasTimbers

Oh man you blew my trade secret!   :D 8)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

getoverit

Thanks Tex!  I'm still pretty blown away at how pretty that guitar finished out. It was a real show stopper at the Miami guitar festival.

I still have quite a bit of that wood and you never know what my next creation will look like
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

OneWithWood

Good call, Tex.
One of the things I still strugle with when I try to emulate some of the methods contained in this thread is how to secure the cant while sawing.
It looks like you just balance the cant on the clamp and dogs then saw carefully.  Is that how you do it?  What keeps the cant from migrating off the saw on into the head?
That guitar looks better everytime I see it  8)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

TexasTimbers

Quote from: OneWithWood on April 25, 2008, 12:04:14 PM
It looks like you just balance the cant on the clamp and dogs then saw carefully. 

Yes it was branches/twigs/felling wedges but keep in mind I hadn't quartersawn anything using that method before so it was a one-timer. Lots of waste but GOI had stressed, adamantly . . . "It has to be true quartersawn for this!" . . .  so I was not wanting to give him anything except perfect quartersawn wood and the only way I could figure to do it was the way I did.

I didn't have time to build a jig like I referred to in the Crash Archives and knew I wasn't cutting but the one log that way.  It would be fairly easy to make a jig that would allow clamping on the oblique angles you need cut a log that way. But if I study these other methods, maybe I can still get lumber with rings 90° or close enough, to the faces with not as much waste, so my method might be irrelevant. I gotta stew on it before I decide, because with mine you don't get any flat or rift sawn it's all perfect or near perfect quarter. Even the "pies" are still well within the 60°+ requirement to be called quartered.


The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Dodgy Loner

Been a while since someone posted a quartersawing tutorial on here, so I figured I'd post my method.

Step 1: Find a big oak log.  This was a willow oak log from my grandad's place, about 25" on the small end.


Step 2: Cut about a 4-6" face on four sides of the log.


Step 3: Make a cut 2-3 inches above the pith, removing a large slab.  After removing the slab, you'll be able to take off 4-5 wide boards that will show quartersawn figure.  These can be split in half, since they'll probably crack along the pith anyway, but I figure I can do that when it dries.


Step 4: Turn up the bottom slab 90o and make a cut about 2" above where the rays are horizontal.  You can remove about 4 boards from this slab that will show quartersawn figure.


Step 5: Now you're left with four cants with live edge.  If you need riftsaw lumber for legs, door frames, or face frames, you can easily get it out of these.  However, I wanted as much quartersawn as possible, so I built two jigs to hold the cants up at a 45o angle to cut more quartersawn boards.


Step 6: You now have a big pile of boards that need to be edged ;D.


It's a lot of work, but the results speak for themselves.  Practically every board that came out of this log was quartersawn, and there was relatively little waste.


Here's a rough diagram of how the log was sawn (assuming that the log was a perfect cylinder, of course ;D):


"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Radar67

Those are some nice looking boards Dodgy. What you got planned for them?
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Dodgy Loner

I've been cutting lots of oak over the last year, getting ready to remodel my kitchen and living room.  The living room will have oak paneling, the kitchen will have oak cabinets, and both rooms will have oak floors.  The quarersawn oak will be used in the cabinets.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Looks like you sawed into the night ;D.  That is quarter sawing a quarter past 7:00 :D.

I see a real nice slab pile growing and a nice sawdust pile as well.  My sawdust pile is a monster, and yours will be too, soon :).

Nice pics.  I like the jig.  How is the cant held/clamped onto the jig to keep the log from moving?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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