Northwest Forest Fires

[Bruce]

Well put.  You the Man>

I'm going to frame your response and put it on my office wall.

Were in trouble.  

Who will decide what "we expect of our environment"?  

[Texas Ranger]

In response to Charlie and Minnesota oak glades.  Oaks are highly sensitive to fire in most ecological niches.  I would suspect that the Minnesota glades are a product of stopping the fires that came in off the plains and woods east.   Texas has great open expanses that used to be grass, that now have oak and mesquite, all a product of stopping the fire.

[Tom]

I don't know Bruce.  There are a lot of people willing to discover the reasons we should be concerned, but too many others with hidden agendas who gloss over problems, create solutions for problems that don't exist or live in a 'doomsday' world where there are no solutions.

Forums like this have been in existence for many centuries, thanks to the Greeks.  They are an educational medium whose purpose has been to create thought, exercise minds, define problems, design solutions and encourage communication without intimidation. That's an art that our society is in danger of losing.

If you were to discuss these thing in the Congress of the United States someone could lose their job if they said the wrong thing.  Why should they say the "wrong" thing?  I've heard the English Parliament on TV and they seem to be more open conversationally than we are but don't discuss things, they argue.  

I think Solutions will be slow coming and the good ones will be from the general public free to express their thoughts and recommendations in a Forum where someone may be Listening with an open mind. That, unfortunately, doesn't allow for someone to actually act on the information,  a task our Government is supposed to be doing. Our Government, though, has gotten out of the listening part of the equation.

(just an opinion)  

[CHARLIE]

Thanks Don. What you said makes good sense. What I don't understand though is that the oaks are slowly giving way to the conifers. I was told that it was because of the lack of fires that allowed the conifers to grow instead of the oak. It's an interesting subject to me. Whatever the case, it shows that fires play an important role in the type of trees that make up a forest.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, fire is part of forest ecosystem. Reference jack pine and the endangered species, the Kirtlands Warbler, known as the bird of fire.

However, the fire ecosystems are controlled by humans in the environment requiring more fire prevention and protection as more and more of the woodland areas are developed.

[Tom]

Charlie,

I don't have the information at my finger tips but was told years ago that there is a natural evolution to a forest.  One of the Foresters probably has this on the tip of their tongue.

As I remember, soil emerges from water as a swamp that grows grasses, mosses, ferns and then hardwoods and then softwoods.  I hope one of the fellows will put this in the right order and explain it because I would like to know too,

The description was from the beginning of the forest to what  was described as an evolutionary mature forest.

[Texas Ranger]

Charlie, pines are generally "weed" species, they are the first to reseed, first to rise above the existing crown cover, and will shade out the oaks.  Add a "little" fire that will damage the oaks and the pines will run away with a site.  Now, that's in Texas, rusults may vary outside our great state.   BG

[Texas Ranger]

Tom,  you wrote

"As I remember, soil emerges from water as a swamp that grows grasses, mosses, ferns and then hardwoods and then softwoods.  I hope one of the fellows will put this in the right order and explain it because I would like to know too,"

This is what is called forest succession.  There are developmental stages in the growth of a mature stand.  In my day I was taught about climax and sub climax species.  They call it different now, due to the urge of each generation to reinvent the wheel.  But, basically, there are invasive species of plant that change a site, usually the fastest grower with the lightest most mobile seed (pines?) these are sub climax, they are not the end, stable forest that will be there.  Here in Texas the bare ground is invaded by hardwood and pine, if a little fire is added, we will have pine, if fire is excluded, we will have hard wood.  Pine here is a fire sub climax species, not the end results of eons of development.

Your example is a little extreame in that there may not be a process from swamp to finale stand without some up lifting, change in weather, drainage patterns, et cetera.  When we took fire off the priaire, we ended up with groves of trees where we never had them before.  

It is a very complex relationship, and changes with each site and location.  Along with the plants are the animal spieces that change with each successional stage.  Deer will emerge where there are timber species that produce the mast they need, but will do poorly in the prarie.

[Tom]

Thanks Don,

I remember the terms "climax and sub-climax" now that you have mentioned them.  It sounds like there is enough information to write a book rather than a paragragh.  Your description makes me want to go to the library.

The article or seminar or classroom where I remember this information was describing the "eon" maturity/climax of a forest.  I understand how it is accomplished in a much shorter time period.  I suppose we were either being impressed or the main subject of the talk was evolution rather than trees.

I found this interesting site  http://lpsl.coe.uga.edu/projects/ERSS/home.html

And in the process found an essay by Thoreu on Forest Succession.  Not having read him in a long time, I took the time to do so and was "Thoreauly" entertained.

http://www.walden.org/thoreau/default.asp?MFRAME=/thoreau/writings/essays/natural/Succession.htm

[CHARLIE]

Don, on that site you listed for an article on fusiform rust, I found an article about "A Shelterwood-Burn Technique for Regnerating Productive Upland Oak Sites in the Piedmont Region".  The article doesn't mention pine trees but from what I can tell (I'm still studying it), fire was used to regenerate oak over red maple, sweet gum and yellow poplar.  I do know that the Minnesota Forestry agent said that the reason we had many oak groves in SE Minnesota was because the Indians (many years ago) used to do controlled burns. But I don't remember the particulars. I'm still studying it though 'cause I have my interest up.: :

[Texas Ranger]

Yup, some oaks will survive and grow with a little fire, many will not.  Even so, most maples are a thin barked species and cannot sustain fire.  Much of the North East has a low grade maple land cover that is there because of the exclusion of fire.  I made the mistake of thinking in Texas terms and forgot that some hard wood responds to fire, as well.  I grow up in Missouri, and my first "job" was fighting woods fire in the northern Ozarks.  Nothing there but scrub hardwood.  Fire and logging over the past 200 years had all but destroyed the tree cover of the Missouri Ozards.  Hunting in the Hoover days all but eliminated the game, or any edible, animals.

My professional stand is "don't burn hard woods", BUT.  It is beneficial under very restricted circumstances, for animals and trees alike.  It is a fascinating study on how the environment responds to fire, or any disturbance.  Much is available on the learning channels on television that was never available in the detail they have, when I was in school you read the story and saw some pictures, now you see the whole thing happening.  The big burns and volcanoes out west have taught a whole new generation that nature is a very resiliant part of our lives.

[Texas Ranger]

Tom, an interesting read, from 1903 can be found at:  http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/sfnmc/class/PINCHOT1.html

It is written by the grand father of forestry in the US>

[Ron Wenrich]

They have just started doing research on controlled burns at Penn State.  I believe they are trying to get rid of red maple - our #1 species, but lower in price and quality than red oak.

I'm not sure if they are trying any burns on cherry sites.

It will be interesting to see if they will be advocating burns for private landowners or just use them on state lands.

[Tom]

Don,

That as a good link.  I have been entertained once again.
I find it amusing that Brer Pinchot's idea in 1903 was that high taxes were the greatest enenmy of the forest, a syndrome as truthful today.

He was short on words but long on subjects and easy to read.  I had to do a double take on carbonic acid gas .  

[Gordon]

Wow, great thread, great links as well.

Will there ever be just one use for the forest. NO, everyone has his or her own ideas be it right or wrong as to the outcome of the forest. I believe everyone agrees on this point.

Now the question is on the let it burn or put it out. Once again everyone will have a differing opinion on that as well. Guess it boils down to education in some aspects of it. Will that solve everything, never. There will still be differing opinions on this as well for ever.

Ya see this is why. You have just built a beautiful house in the woods and fire is rolling towards it of course you want every piece of fire equipment within a 500 mile radius if possible. But on the other hand if there were no fire you wouldn't want the woods cut either.

Now from a loggers stand point. Need to saw the logs to get food on the table. Doesn't care about someones view. Wants to cut the timber before the fire gets it or else all is wasted.

Now from mother natures standpoint. Forest is old and has much disease, time to clean it.  

But it was well put in a previous post that when man tampers with something he usually screws it up before he is done with it.

So it all boils down to what side of the street your standing on. What will the feds decide?

Gordon

[L. Wakefield]

  You don't have to stand on just one side. You can walk all around it and balance the action. See nature's criteria and respect them- but harvest before the timber is disease-ridden- and see the homeowner's desire for the soft and deep shade of the woods- give that shelter but also the beauty of lawn a little bit away- and the lawn can make a fair firebreak and access to defend the house- which can be made of wood- doing much to persuade the homeowner of the wisdom of harvesting.

   As the song ends up after going full circle- 'He's hiding from his wife, down at smoky's bar'-

   Welcome to earth, 3rd rock from the sun. .  lw

[CHARLIE]

I heard on the news this morning that some dude scientist took a plane and flew back and forth through the smoke of one of the forest fires taking air (smoke) samples. He found that forest fires let off large amounts of mercury into the air. A lot more than was originally thought. Who would have thought that some of the mercury in the streams, lakes and fish is coming from a natural occurance too.:-/

[Don P]

I was at the folks yesterday and caught the tail end so hopefully someone will correct this. There is a 4 hour special on CNN Labor Day I think 9 ET on forest fires.

[swampwhiteoak]

Just got back to the forum after fighting fires in Nevada and one in California.  Did a two week stint as part of an eastern module of crews.  Wish we had made it to Oregon or Washington, maybe next year.  Hoping my boss will let me go out to Montana but I ain't holding my breath.  Getting out west once a year is nice enough.  On the one hand, I hate to see timber burn, but on the other hand it sure is a good time to help put it out.

Will post pictures as soon as I can get some scanned, probably in a week or so.

[Bruce]

swampwhiteoak
 
Looking forward to viewing your pictures.  I'm thankful for your safe return.  I've been learning alot reading member post.

I hooked up with a corporation in Washgington (22,000sf facility) that has a patented pending process known as Enhanced Growth Technology, representing a revolutionary change in fermentation technology.  EGT will dramatically reduce or replace mechanical stirring and sparging and increase biomass yields as foaming is substantially reduced.  This technology can drastically reduce the cost of energy and also reduces labor requirements, while increasing product yields.

Since the platform technology has a broad base application, the future uses of this product are expected to include the pharmaceutical companies and for the manufacturers of homeopathic remedies, industrial enzymes, chemicals, citric acid, and biopesticides which are an alternative for chemical pesticides.

The process will drive down the variable costs of ethanol production per unit volume and increase the return on investment for plant operation.

MycoFerm's novel and proprietary technology under development will revolutionize the animal waste industry. When compared to known bacterial techniques for remediation, animal wastes fungi are known to be able to perform the same function within five to six weeks as compared to bacterial treatments taking up to 2 years.

Since we cant' do anything about forest fires in the northwest, I've decided to contribute my efforts in new technologies.