Questions from a Prospective Sawyer

[WV Sawmiller]

   I like the comments about stacking. I'd cut more wood here at home now if I had a place to stack it and yes, everything the customer wants is on the bottom of the stack so at least I rotate the positions regularly. : How to display your lumber is another big consideration. 

    Any lumber I sell is typically a salvage operation from fallen or excess trees I own or sometimes people give them to me. Warning - free logs aren't free! It is easy to get more time and handling costs in them than they are worth. I don't buy logs and just finished my first sizable saw on shares job now I have to go pick it up and stack it. I already had to restack one pile to make room for this. 

[jeepcj779]

I am not far from you and if you would like to drop by to see my operation you are welcome. I have a Cook mill, the MP32 to which I have added electric loading and turning, etc, so it is quite different from the hydraulic version, but you are welcome anyway. BW, the Cook mills are very rugged - I've had mine 17 years and it has held up very well.

Bob

Thanks. I'm just on the other side of Raleigh from you, so I might have to take you up on that.

[Larry]

I'm lazy.

I bought a TK-2000 in 2010 after 16 years on a manual mill. I equipped my TK with dragback and added a few mods. Couple of roller tables and I'm in business. Most boards and slabs don't really get picked up. They get pushed/shuffled into either the slab rack or the board rack. For the occasional errant slab, I pick up one end and the roller table holds up the other end. Most of the time sawing, I stay right at the console and take very few steps.

Edging was the real muscle puller/back breaker on my mill. I've made modifications by replacing the stock 6" two plane clamp with a 12" clamp, added bearings on the loader arms, and another tweak or two. Now I can flip flitches off logs onto the loader arms with the clamp, and stand up the flitches with the clamp/log turner. Drag back the edgings, and if I hold my tongue just right, even flip the flitches with the two plane clamp. Edging now is pretty painless on the mill, although still slow.

About the only way a helper can improve my productivity is bringing me logs, and hauling off slabs. Of course helpers don't show up on time and try to make up by quitting early, want money, and sometimes grits.

For a long time I was ahead of the mizer mills with a 32" throat on my 2000.  Still only one WM wide in my area I think.  I do think the 2200 with a 37" throat might be worth the extra cash as wide seems to be a seller.

I just thought to add, I have two pieces of support equipment.  A compact tractor with a FEL.  It can only lift 1,000 pounds or so but I use it the most because its quiet, fast, and easy on fuel.  For heavy lifting I have a truck mounted forklift which has also proven itself.  I would hate to give up either one but could get along with just the forklift.  I also have three cant hooks, in the last four days of sawing I used the Logrite mega hook 1 time.  Machines are great!

[doc henderson]

I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.  Most people like what they are used to and I like my TK.  The WM guys are just as loyal.  I would get the biggest mill you can afford and justify for what you will be doing.  I am just an uber-hobbyist.

[Larry]

I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.

Can my 2000 be modified?

[doc henderson]

yes, talk to Matt or Mike.  you could try to mod. it yourself, or buy the new parts from them.  still a 36.5 inch gantry.  the new mills also have a heavier toe board, but nothing is cheap.  they are always trying to improve, but the price also goes up.  I think my mill is worth more used now than I paid for it.  7 years ago.

[jeepcj779]

Jeepcj,

    It sounds like you are way ahead on the equipment side than I was and in some case still am. There are tons of comments here on the 4 post head and I am sure they are stable. WM even makes a couple now. I watched them at a demo at the NC dealer shop and I saw I'd have to change the way I unload my lumber if I had one. Not right or wrong just different. The biggest complaint I have about the dealers selling them is with some who, as part of their own marketing, say a cantilever head can't cut straight. That's not true and I like to cut a 1/8" veneer cut and show people when they say that. The last log I cut yesterday was a 12' red oak and I was cutting 18" at a pass (I had made a 6" & a 12" cant) cutting some real pretty 4/4 boards. I will say more power and more torque are always nice. My 25 hp kohler uses a little less than a gallon an hour. I ran for 4.3 hours yesterday, all red oak, and cut about 900 bf of 4/4 and a little 6/4 RO lumber. A bigger mill should cut more and faster but that was about as fast as we could handle it with the equipment and muscle power we had on hand.

   I'd suggest concentrate more on whether you will be doing mobile or stationary. The equipment and processing will be real different. On a mobile job you are typically at the mercy of what equipment the customer has for loading and handling logs, boards, sawdust and slabs. If stationary you can consider the edgers, rollers, etc that you can't haul. Also on a mobile job you you have to have and carry a good maintenance and consumable kit with you in case you have to make repairs in the field. When stationary you can just run to the shed and get the item needed.

  The building SouthSide mentions as essential to his operation is not going to be there when sawing mobile. Portable jobs are very much dependent on the weather and way more so than stationary.

   Look carefully at your pricing. Be fair to both sides. You need to be competitive but make a decent profit so you have to be real diligent about capturing all your costs. You will make mistakes - learn from them, correct them as best you can and try not to repeat them. Your reputation is your most valuable asset IMHO and referral from other customers is your best advertising. If you can't handle a request, turn it down or refer to someone who can. Unfortunately at first you won't know that till you try - the old Catch 22 syndrome. I try to practice new cuts and such at home on my wood rather than at a customer site when possible. Good luck.

I trust everyone who has a WM and says that they are excellent mills and cut straight. If they didn't, they would go out of business. I just don't know if I can make it cut straight when it gets out of proper adjustment. I think I'll be more comfortable with a 4 post. I feel at this point like I will be doing about equal amounts of mobile and stationary, but that is based on zero experience. Like I said in a previous post, I was going to do this as a hobby after I retire, so I hope I can just scale things up from hobby to small business. I will go mobile when I think there is money in it, and stay stationary otherwise. I'll need to put in some practice with my own logs before I try to mess someone else's up. I probably will not buy any trees. I hope to be able to get trees from tree removal services, storms, and word-of mouth. I have about 20,000 bdft of pine, white and red oak, and other mixed hard woods that need to come down around my house right now. I plan to practice on the pine and hopefully do well enough with the oak to sell it. I have a couple hundred acres up near Princeton, WV, but that is a 5 hour+ haul, so I don't think that will be very economical. Thanks for the reply.

[doc henderson]

Jeep, keep the questions coming.  If you want to avoid the quote, you can hit Reply at the top of the thread.  or if it has been a few threads earlier that you want to comment on, you can use the quote reply and back out all of the quote you do not need and keep what is pertinent. WM now makes a 4 post head. not sure if TK has any mills there but you can call and find out.

[Southside]

I probably will not buy any trees. I hope to be able to get trees from tree removal services, storms, and word-of mouth

Just don't make that a "must" as part of your business plan.  "Free" logs are worth exactly what you pay for them in far too many instances.  First there is the tramp metal, golf ball, small children, and grave markers that end up in them (yes I have a log with a grave marker completely surrounded by the wood), but overall it can be very challenging to get quality lumber from yard trees due to the open nature in which they grow, the  reason they are removed (disease, damage, etc) and the complete lack of log grading that they are often bucked by.  Just be flexible to buying quality logs if you want to produce quality, finished lumber like you stated before.  

[doc henderson]

You could make a spot for your mill on your land, mill the wood and haul it home to use and or sell.  Now you need a good truck and trailer.  start slow however it works out, and follow the direction you need.  if milling for yourself great, if you get custom jobs great,  if everyone wants live edge slabs great!  I am excited for you to get started.  best regards.

[WV Sawmiller]

Jeep,

  Keep reading, keep asking questions. The biggest complaint I had about my new mill was the WM rep brought me my mill and did a good training session but I did not know enough about the machine or the process to even know what questions to ask. Fortunately their customer service team are very patient and extremely cooperative. They have a service loop where a team comes out every other year and do a complete check up and alignment and they are also great at training on what they are doing and how I need to do.

   When you come to Princeton WV again come see me. You will only be 30 miles away. We'll fry up a good mess of Catfish fillets from Bluestone Lake. Good luck.

Southside,

  We had a monument business when I was growing up. I saw grave markers like you describe. There is a good chance it has the epitath "Gone but not forgotten". I've seen that on graves with trees big enough for saw timber growing out of them. My favorite epitath was common in Norway and just said "Thanks for the help".

[Southside]

Knowing me mine will probably say something along the lines of "Turn around real slowly and look behind you" or "I saw that" - just to mess with folks.  ;D 

[jeepcj779]

  I like the comments about stacking. I'd cut more wood here at home now if I had a place to stack it and yes, everything the customer wants is on the bottom of the stack so at least I rotate the positions regularly. : How to display your lumber is another big consideration.

   Any lumber I sell is typically a salvage operation from fallen or excess trees I own or sometimes people give them to me. Warning - free logs aren't free! It is easy to get more time and handling costs in them than they are worth. I don't buy logs and just finished my first sizable saw on shares job now I have to go pick it up and stack it. I already had to restack one pile to make room for this.

I plan to get most of my inventory from salvage but I'll need to learn to be selective about what I take on. I expect initially most of my income will be from sawing at customer locations. Later, I hope to run a kiln or two for hire, and one for myself. I think two solar kilns and one Nyle L200M should do. After that, maybe moulding, planing, etc.

[doc henderson]

Knowing me mine will probably say something along the lines of "Turn around real slowly and look behind you" or "I saw that" - just to mess with folks.  ;D

your poor wife... :D :D :D

[jeepcj779]

I look at it like this.  Milling is a good way to make some money, but a hard way to make a living.  

I don't like employees either.  Some roller conveyor will help at the mill.  Look into getting a mill that has dragback.  When mobile, charge hourly to encourage the owner to provide an off bearer.  

You may find someone who can work part time ish on a contract basis.  Suggest them to the owner of the logs at mobile jobs and have the owner pay them as a contractor.  Not your employee, but a big step up at the same time.  Saves you a ton of paperwork!  

I've also heard people wish they had gotten the kiln first and just custom dried others lumber.  A possible niche to consider.

I am lucky in that I will not have to rely on the mill business as my primary source of income. I will definitely look into getting some roller conveyors. Although I am leaning toward the TK 2200 right now, I have been unable to find much information on the dragback feature, other than cost. There is a small section in the manual on the dragback, but no good pictures or diagrams are included. I have also been unable to locate any videos of the TK dragback design in operation. Before I commit to a purchase, I will see it in operation, even if I have to fly to their facility to see it. Maybe I'll take a video and post it. Anyway, I like the execution of the dragback on both the WM and the Cooks and I hope the TK is comparable. It is definitely a feature I will require.

[jeepcj779]

Did someone mention stickers? These are from waste we made last week. They are banded and drying on the steel. 1040 of them.  

 

They won't last long once we break into the pack.

I will add a bander to the list. Where did you acquire the steel?

[jeepcj779]

I'm lazy.

I bought a TK-2000 in 2010 after 16 years on a manual mill. I equipped my TK with dragback and added a few mods. Couple of roller tables and I'm in business. Most boards and slabs don't really get picked up. They get pushed/shuffled into either the slab rack or the board rack. For the occasional errant slab, I pick up one end and the roller table holds up the other end. Most of the time sawing, I stay right at the console and take very few steps.

Edging was the real muscle puller/back breaker on my mill. I've made modifications by replacing the stock 6" two plane clamp with a 12" clamp, added bearings on the loader arms, and another tweak or two. Now I can flip flitches off logs onto the loader arms with the clamp, and stand up the flitches with the clamp/log turner. Drag back the edgings, and if I hold my tongue just right, even flip the flitches with the two plane clamp. Edging now is pretty painless on the mill, although still slow.

About the only way a helper can improve my productivity is bringing me logs, and hauling off slabs. Of course helpers don't show up on time and try to make up by quitting early, want money, and sometimes grits.

For a long time I was ahead of the mizer mills with a 32" throat on my 2000.  Still only one WM wide in my area I think.  I do think the 2200 with a 37" throat might be worth the extra cash as wide seems to be a seller.

I just thought to add, I have two pieces of support equipment.  A compact tractor with a FEL.  It can only lift 1,000 pounds or so but I use it the most because its quiet, fast, and easy on fuel.  For heavy lifting I have a truck mounted forklift which has also proven itself.  I would hate to give up either one but could get along with just the forklift.  I also have three cant hooks, in the last four days of sawing I used the Logrite mega hook 1 time.  Machines are great!

I also have a tractor with FEL with forks and can pick up 2500#. I get more use out of those forks than anything else on the tractor. I still don't get the grits reference!

[Southside]

Where did you acquire the steel?

A local distribution center closed up and sold everything including what was bolted to the concrete.  I bought 20 or so cantilever racks along with a lot of power conveyor there. 

[jeepcj779]

I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.  Most people like what they are used to and I like my TK.  The WM guys are just as loyal.  I would get the biggest mill you can afford and justify for what you will be doing.  I am just an uber-hobbyist.

I hope to be an uber-hobbyist someday. Maybe once I'm done paying for equipment.

[jeepcj779]

 not sure if TK has any mills there but you can call and find out.

Guess I will have to call ahead. I just assumed they would have demo equipment available at their manufacturing facility. My closest dealer is in NY State. I will try to find some log and timber expos/demos where I can see the mills in action.

[Southside]

I still don't get the grits reference!

I can explain it for you.  But it will cost an SGU.  :D

[jeepcj779]

You could make a spot for your mill on your land, mill the wood and haul it home to use and or sell.  Now you need a good truck and trailer. 

I have one truck and a good trailer, but I would need two trucks. I have lots of trespassing issues on the plot in WV, so I would have to pack everything in and out each trip. I would not leave anything behind I wanted to keep. I will see if I can find a smaller plot closer to where I live with some good quality trees. If not, I will rely on the NC weather to fell some trees for me.

[jeepcj779]

  When you come to Princeton WV again come see me. You will only be 30 miles away. We'll fry up a good mess of Catfish fillets from Bluestone Lake. Good luck.

I will have to take you up on that. I may head up there when I am home in October if I have the time.

[jeepcj779]

I still don't get the grits reference!

I can explain it for you.  But it will cost an SGU.  :D

Don't know what an SGU is either. The only grits I am familiar with are the ones you eat for breakfast. I know that if you put sugar in them instead of salt and butter, you are doing it wrong.

[WV Sawmiller]

   We will be looking forward to seeing you in October. I am glad you know that sugar and grits don't mix - it is a crime against nature.