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Getting ripped off??? ...He went and did it...

Started by flip, March 22, 2006, 04:00:46 PM

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flip

I have a co-worker that is going to be selling off some timber and he needs a little advise. (Me too) 

Mike has about 30-50 trees in a wooded area he wants to move, mostly white oak and hard maple.  He contacted a guy that will come out cut and skid to an area for bidding.  The logger gets 40% of the sale price for his time and efforts.

We have a customer that comes in here that is a land manager/forester that says share cutting is a bad idea.  I kinda think the same thing after hearing this guy tell him his white oak is worth a dollar or more a bf in log form.  I look at my HMR and FAS 4/4 was something like $960/M.  I don't see him getting anything near that, maybe I'm wrong.  I can't find a publication that shows stumpage prices for my area but I have been told that 1/3 of 1C price is pretty close.

Ideas opinions??

Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Ron Scott

Contact your local Conservation District Forester or a professional consulting forester serving your area for a recomendation on the proposed harvest to meet the landowners objectives and for current local stumpage and or/log prices on the landing.
~Ron

Ron Wenrich

Well, some logs are worth more than $1/bf and some aren't.  Hard maple veneer goes for upwards of $4-6/bf.  We're selling white oak veneer for around $1.50 (I think).  But, you won't average $1/bf straight through.  That's what hasn't been told.

Cutting on shares can be OK if you have a bunch of control...like sitting on the landing every day to make sure that some of the good stuff didn't happen to walk away on its own.  You need to have lots of trust and a really good contract. 

Its best to have the trees marked and solicit bids.  Having it marked levels the playing field for all perspective buyers.  You can get an appraisal at that time, if you don't want a forester to handle the sale, or can't find one.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kirk_Allen

Flip, In Illinois they publish the recent rates for both Stumpage and delivered to the mill.  Hope this helps. 

http://ilvirtualforest.nres.uiuc.edu/pdf/itp/itp0505.pdf

OLD_ JD

 If that can help here my fee for cut and skid  :)  I charge $160.00 \ tbf for log and $ 200.00 \ tbf for venner . But it can be more or less depending of a lot of factor like skid distance, quantity of log, access and many more. Plus if I pull firewood too   ;)
canadien forest ranger

Phorester


JD, what does tbf stand for?

Reddog


rebocardo

> Mike has about 30-50 trees in a wooded area he wants to move, mostly white oak and hard maple.
> The logger gets 40% of the sale price for his time and efforts.

That does not sound like many trees so the shares might work and be the best for all parties, it sounds reasonable.

> Contact your local Conservation District Forester or a professional consulting forester

That being said, I agree with having a third party in on it paid by the land owner, especially for marking trees and keeping track of what was cut.

Plus, they will be more likely to tell the land owner they might be wrecking a stream or wet land area for an endangered fly and avoid being fined for $10,000,000 to reseed it with maggots  :D

I am finishing up a job where the previous person/logger basically took the money and ran and left the land owner with a huge mess. For a normal person when they get left with trees in the 30" range dumped upon 10-20" trees with a huge amount of tops on top of that, it is basically impossible for a normal person to clean up. Plus, it ends up destroying the lot.

3rd party paid to look after your best interests is worth the $600-$1000 if clean up is going to be more then that or the price of one good tree.

Phorester



"JD, what does tbf stand for?


Thousand Board Feet."

I was wondering about that, but wasn't sure.  Is this a standard designation in Canada?  In the States 1,000 board feet  is written as mbf, the m being a symbol for 1,000.  I wasn't sure what the t meant.

flip

The way it sounds is he cuts it brings it to a landing and then calls some people in to give bids.  So, generally, is bidding and buying  done before the trees are cut or after they are on the landing?  I know enough about wood that if the stuff sits too long degrade sets in and price goes down. 

I'm really new to the log buying end which I am really intersted in learning the ins and outs of.  If I do ever get to a point where I'm looking at a bunch of logs to bid on I don't want to look like an idiot and overpay or look like a crook.  Thanks for the advice, I will pass this on to Mike.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

OLD_ JD

Phorester
the more standard designation here is MPMP but so far in this forum i don't see that designation ,it's was my mistake i shoud use mbf sorry about the misunderstanding :-\
canadien forest ranger

Ron Wenrich

However its sold, maybe the best idea is to have all checks coming to the landowner and not the logger.  I've seen some operations where the landowner never gets paid, and the logger has nothing to get if you take him to court.

My biggest concern in these deals is who does the selecting.  After you highgrade, there isn't anything left for the next harvest.

JD

Care to explain MPMP?  I've never seen that term, except on an army base.   :D
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Actually, in Canada we use mfbm (or Mbf) = thousand feet, board measure. It's written that way in any national/provincial publications I've read.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OLD_ JD

Ron
Actually, in Quebec we use MPMP for mbf coze we are french canadien.no wonder I never see that designation here  :D i just realyse that ..sorry again for the misunderstanding  :-X

About having the checks coming to the landowner  >:(. I will never do that again >:(..All checks shoud come on both name's...now i have one landowner who still didn't have me pay my $8.000.00 log share after 2 month cashing  the sawmill checks  >:( >:(
canadien forest ranger

Hoop

Without actually seeing things, its strictly a guess.

Here is my guess.  40% sounds "reasonable" for a very small job such as this.  30 - 50 trees is only a 1 or 2 day job.  Many loggers want nothing to do with these small jobs unless the trees are of top notch veneer grade.  The logger is responsible for paying cartage to haul the skidder/forwarder to the premises, and then pay cartage to haul it to the next job.  These costs have to be paid by someone.  The logger undoubtedly is figuring the cartage costs into the 40% figure. 

flip

(This new post was merged with the old thread to provide some continuity.  Admin.)


I put a post up here a couple months ago concerning a co-worker having a guy come in and cut on shares.  Well, the deed is done, the guy came in for about 3 days and brought out about 150 logs and dropped them on a landing (barn lot).  The deal was the logger gets 40% when it all sells, some #1s some #2 supposedly some veneer stuff.  Well its 3 weeks later and no bids the logs are starting to crack like heck on the ends so I gave him a 5 gal pail of Anchor seal to slow the end degrade.  He said he has red and white oaks, ash and some nice hard maple basically losing grade rotting in the 90 degree heat and wants to know what he can do

The logs have all been cut to 10 foot but by the way he talks he can stick a pencil in the cracks all the way to the eraser end.  So obviously the logs will have to be trimmed probably down to 8-9 ft to get clean wood. 

Is this common practice for share cutting or is he gonna get set up for a low ball sale?  It seems like to me that 3 days in the woods and $30,000+ laying on the ground should make a guy a little more hungry to get the job done.

Questions?  Comments??

Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

David_c

Who was supposed to be getting the bids? It sounded to me like it was landowner. One problem is oak is in the dumper right now. Should have waited on that.

flip

The logger was/is responsible according to the contract-he will also provide transportation of the logs if the buyer doesn't. 

He had a couple of guys come up and not bid, one guy said the logs were too close together and couldn't inspect the whole thing.

Should not all of this been talked about before cutting?  I mean, between the logger and the buyers/bidders even before a tree is cut?  I wuold sure like to know if there is a market or anyone is buying before I do that much work. 

My co-worker is getting a little antsy because the logger won't call him back, I'm curious to this practice.  I thought once you cut you try to get the logs to the mill ASAP to avoid degrade and loss.  I wish I had $$ to buy, he says most is over 25".
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

beenthere

flip
QuoteWe have a customer that comes in here that is a land manager/forester that says share cutting is a bad idea.

In your first post, your customer seems to have called it right. Following was Ron Scott's suggestion to get a consulting forester or equivalent to manage the cutting. Sounds like the worst case scenario is happening.   :(
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

It appears that your friend and the logger are losing the log market and log values while the logs lay and devalue on the landing. One needs to insure their log markets before harvesting the trees, especially during a time when the mills may be "filled up" with logs. This may be the case now.

The logs also need to be laid out well so that a timber buyer can access and see to scale them properly. A lump sum sale (payment before harvest) of the standing trees and a winter harvest might have been a better plan to avoid the current market lose of unsold logs at the landing.

The logger needs to "hustlel" for a log market.

~Ron

Ron Wenrich

So, what did the contract stipulate?  He does have a contract, right?  Since he went on shares, the landowner still has a vested interest in the logs. 

Loggers that buy timber and sell logs make most of their money in marketing logs.  They should know their markets.  Even if your coworker would go through the hassle of getting rid of the logs, he would still have to pay the logger his share.  Its all in the contract. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Don P

Sounds like if everyone is acting in good faith, the big concern is to get them milled before they go bad. I know nothing about this, can a fair market value be determined to protect the loggers interest? The logs could be milled and stickered. The logger would be paid when enough lumber sold. That would take several good people  :-\.

David_c

Like Ron said markets should have been in place before cutting. I honestly dont understand this logger. If it was my job I would have had buyers before I started. And If they fell through for one reason or other I would be busting my hump to get these logs sold. It's not like he doesn't have a vested interest in this. He has his time it took to cut, skid, and buck. Not to mention fuel for both saw and skidder. Then there is transportation cost. I'm confused by this. Logs dont get sold he dont get payed. Logs get sold cheaper than they should have he makes less money than he should have.

thecfarm

I wondered the same thing.When I got wood on my land,I have a buyer all ready.Never heard of cutting first,than look for a buyer.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

Seen lots of instances where there was a buyer, then when the wood arrives at the mill yard the price dropped that day. No advanced notice. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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