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Outrigger Wave

Started by YellowHammer, June 09, 2021, 09:50:57 PM

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YellowHammer

Occasionally, I have been the subject of periodic waves in my milled wood.  The pattern is very similar but not exactly like, a band resonance wave, with which I am very familiar and can easily adjust out.  Sometimes this particular wave pattern is very bad, it's unpredictable, and it always bothered me that I couldn't pin it down.  I've eliminated cam followers, bandwheel belts, loose blade guide arm, pretty much everything I could.  The good news is that my saw is generally well dialed in, and can cut as flat as a chalkboard, so when these waves would manifest themselves, they were really distinctive and would really puzzle me, as well as light me up.  My mill is an LT70, set under a barn roof, on clay ground.  Its flat, level and probably hasn't moved 2 feet in as many years.

So a couple days ago, the waves magically appeared after days of flat, no wave sawing. Here's a picture of what these waves looked like.  These are in the mid way point of the board, and I could make them occur any time I changed feed speeds, any time I engaged the debarker, etc.    





Since I was sawing walnut, I didn't want these to happen so I stopped and really started going over everything with a fine tooth comb.  I noticed that as the head was traveling, I could actually see the head wobble up and down a little, and tried to repeat the effect.  So I turned everything off, elevated the head as high as it would go, grabbed the outboard side of the head and started forcing it up and dawn with a vengeance, and noticed there was a good deal of frame flex.  This flex was allowing the head to rock up and down, and would take several seconds to dampen out. Then I noticed that the log loader outriggers that appeared to be were very tight to the ground were also flexing.  How could that be?  This made me take a serious think.

All the outriggers were firm enough into the ground that even when I kicked them, they felt solid.  There was no slack that I could see in any of them, as I check them routinely.  Then the lightbulb in my brain went off.  The rain we've been having routinely off and on had moistened the ground under the outriggers, and the outriggers were setting on slightly soft ground, even though the ground appeared hard.  I simply didn't have enough support.

I have the fine adjust outriggers, and proceeded to adjusted every single one down, only 1/2 turn, until I felt them fetch up.  Thats right, only 1/2 turn on each, equally.  I could feel them land on the solid base under where they had been.

So on the exact same log, the very next cut, success! Flat as a pancake.  No waves, anywhere, at any speed.  Amazing.  1/2 turn down on the outriggers went from unacceptable to sweet. 




 

The board (slab) on the right is the "before" picture.  Notice the waves on the face in some areas.  

The board on the left is the "after" picture.  Zero waves, same band, same log, same feed rate, same everything.  Very smooth cut.  This shows how critical even the small things can be to get flat wood.  I sawed the rest of the afternoon, zero issues.   

Ball game.

Maybe this experience will help others.       
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

mike_belben

Good info yh.  Thx for sharing.


Praise The Lord

Bruno of NH

I have the same issues when the frost comes out of the ground in the spring time.
Mud season
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

jpassardi

Nice diagnostic work. An easy long term solution may be to put timbers under the feet to displace the load and vibrations as the clay swells and shrinks back from moisture.
LT15 W/Trailer, Log Turner, Power Feed & up/down
CAT 416 Backhoe W/ Self Built Hydraulic Thumb and Forks
Husky 372XP, 550XPG, 60, 50,   WM CBN Sharpener & Setter
40K # Excavator, Bobcat 763, Kubota RTV 900
Orlan Wood Gasification Boiler -Slab Disposer

customsawyer

Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

Big timbers should work in the mean time if it keeps raining every day but what do you mud season guys do?

Looks like a good place for for me to put a heavy concrete pad in this whole area.  Then add a few rubber mats to stand on.  The clay is generally so hard, I already use them at my console.  

What problems can I expect with the mill on concrete?  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Percy

Quote from: YellowHammer on June 10, 2021, 07:28:56 AM
Big timbers should work in the mean time if it keeps raining every day but what do you mud season guys do?

Looks like a good place for for me to put a heavy concrete pad in this whole area.  Then add a few rubber mats to stand on.  The clay is generally so hard, I already use them at my console.  

What problems can I expect with the mill on concrete?  
I've had my LT70 with a 6 foot extension mounted on a concrete slab with a steel frame for elevation. After carefully leveling, I bolted it down solid to the built up frame on advice from Woodmizer Salmon Arm. It is one of the best things I've done as all that constant adjusting is a thing of the past.Im hunting for pics.....https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=85674.msg1313016#msg1313016
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

mike_belben

Mass dampens vibration.  Its why high speed, high precision milling and turning centers are so darn heavy.  They wont produce a good finish if the whole chassis has random resonant frequency vibrations.  They used to be full of extra cast iron.. Now its a lot more epoxy granite. 
Praise The Lord

moodnacreek

With any sawmill not on or in concrete this sort of thing should be expected. That mill must be otherwise in very good shape to do such smooth work.

csmall61

YH, you can make out rigger pads just like the ones used on mobile cranes.

Take 1 x 6 hardwood, use a two layered cross pattern to make a 2ft square, and add rope handles and use 1 x 2 to make a box in the center for the foot to set in.

With these under every out rigger, it won't matter how muddy it gets.  I will try to get a picture of mine and post.

YellowHammer

Yep, the rig can cut as flat as a pancake.

If it happens more I'll make some of those crane outrigger pads. 

It's amazing how when the clay got moist it had some "give" and as I was rocking the saw head around by hand, it would flex like it was on rubber pads.  The legs were heavily loaded by the the weight of the mill, but the ground was elastic and was just bouncing around.

It makes me wonder how many others have had this problem and tried to readjust their mill until they got fed up when all they had to do was take a half crank down on every outrigger.  

In case anybody is wondering the cuts were made with a 1.5 inch .055 Turbo Silvertip.  It had been sharpened once but not set.  

I only set every other sharpen.  



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

woodyone.john

My standards for finish aren't as high as yours, but on some softer sites I've used 2 X8 or 10 spanning under the mill to land the 2 middle out riggers on them. For me this saved lots of time readjusting especially on heavier logs. Might work for you if a concrete slab is a way off.
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

Sixacresand

I set up at a customer's concrete pad today quickly realized the pad was not flat or all in one plane.  I don't have the fine adjust deals, but attempted to used wood shims make all the mill supports firm.  

I have seen that issue and assumed it just was an out of set blade a splinter stuck to a wheel belt.  

Thanks for sharing,  YH
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Bruno of NH

I have crane type mats under some and 16"Ă—16"Ă—4" concrete masonary units under others.
I test the frost level with an iron bar daily during mud season.
I have hopes of pouring a pad this summer.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

KenMac

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have noticed on a few YouTube videos this same appearing ripple effect. It seemed to occur at the start of the cut or, as you said, when feed speed slowed. Apparently, the guys just accepted it as normal and let it slide. Thanks for the interesting story YH.
Cook's AC3667t, Cat Claw sharpener, Dual tooth setter, and Band Roller, Kubota B26 TLB, Takeuchi TB260C

YellowHammer

When my mill isn't cutting right, it just bothers me. :D

Not to mention it's embarrassing.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Tom the Sawyer

Robert,

I have had it both ways, on dirt and on concrete.  Concrete wins hands down, in my circumstances.  My mill is under cover, the roof of a lean-to on my barn, 10'x60', concrete full length. Slight slope to the concrete away from the barn.  I still offer mobile appointments so I may set the mill up under the lean-to once a week or so.  It is quick to set up and maintains its level (6 crank down 5000 lb Bulldog trailer swivel jacks).  

With the metal building wall and concrete surface, cleaning up the sawdust is easy, usually before setting up after a mobile appointment and, unlike dirt, I can get it clean.  I move it in and out with the skid steer or tractor and have painted the concrete under each wheel and the tongue jack so placement is repeatable.  Under the operators station I have a 4'x6' rubber stall mat that has been there about 10 years with no signs of deterioration, the mill and skid steer go over it every time I move the mill.  With the stall mat and accumulating sawdust, I have not had any foot issues from working on concrete.
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

Crossroads

I m another one who thought it was caused y a tooth or 2 out of set. Thank you for sharing what you found! One more reason for me to order the FAO's
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

Gere Flewelling

YH- This is impressive solution to the previously unexplained occurrence (for me anyway).  I am curious if you think it might affect a 4 post mill in a similar fashion.  I have a portable mill that sets on 6 jacks when set up.  I run into this issue occasionally, but mostly when sawing hemlock and pine.  I first noticed it when I tried a Timber Wolf band for the first time.  I just figured it was a characteristic of that brand of band.  Since I have noticed it from time to time with the Cook's bands I usually use.  I can't honestly say if the ground was soft under the mill when it happens.  I do set the jacks on hardwood boards in my yard when setting it up as in the spring the ground will allow the jacks to settle in to the dirt.   It is set up on turf and not compacted gravel.  Yours or anyone else's opinion on the would be appreciated.  Thanks, GF
Old 🚒 Fireman and Snow Cat Repairman (retired)
Matthew 6:3-4

Tin Horse

Quote from: Gere Flewelling on June 11, 2021, 08:18:53 AM
YH- This is impressive solution to the previously unexplained occurrence (for me anyway).  I am curious if you think it might affect a 4 post mill in a similar fashion.  I have a portable mill that sets on 6 jacks when set up.  I run into this issue occasionally, but mostly when sawing hemlock and pine.  I first noticed it when I tried a Timber Wolf band for the first time.  I just figured it was a characteristic of that brand of band.  Since I have noticed it from time to time with the Cook's bands I usually use.  I can't honestly say if the ground was soft under the mill when it happens.  I do set the jacks on hardwood boards in my yard when setting it up as in the spring the ground will allow the jacks to settle in to the dirt.   It is set up on turf and not compacted gravel.  Yours or anyone else's opinion on the would be appreciated.  Thanks, GF
On my 4 post Enercraft the frame work is very heavy. It is also supported on 6 outriggers. However when it sat on the ground with large planks under the feet it still moved. Log weight. I noticed when the head was up high and then lowered it would jitter downward. Took a while to figure out why. I always check the rails with a sight level ( transit). There would eventually be some twist or flex in the frame causing this. Problem gone now with mill under a roof and on pads to the bedrock. 8)
Bell 1000 Wood Processor. Enercraft 30HTL, Case 580SL. Kioti 7320.

JB Griffin

Looks to me like you need to feed that pig. Those deep gullet blades have to be fed or they will do just that.
Also those silvertip blades are notorious for unequal and uneven set.
At my last job(running a Baker Dominator) i used nigh on 1000 silvertip blades from WM and at least two weld em up shops and nearly all of them had issues,
uneven set, no set on one side, set more on one side, bad tooth spacing at the weld(too much and too little), cupped(from WM that's pretty much guaranteed), wouldn't cut right outta the box( in particular i remember 8 boxes from WM that all had to be sharpened before they would cut), a visible step at the weld joint where the blade was misaligned, bad camber at weld(this was pretty much every blade), I won't buy them for my mill at all.
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota with 6gpm hyd unit, 150 Prentice, WM bms250, Suffolk dual tooth setter

Over 3.5million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator.

Bruno of NH

I have great results with the silver tips from a weld them up shop.
Cut great out of the box and perfect at the weld.
The blade life is great as well.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

YellowHammer

I've also have had much higher cut quality with weld shop silver tips than DH bands.  Sawing quality is paramount to us, and I'm going to use the best band configuration I can.  This isn't about the band, it's about the sawmill.  

The proof is in the photos.  The board on the left was held to the exact same sawing variables as much as I could to the board on the right for this experiment.  The board on the right is wavy, the board on the left was very flat.  The only thing I adjusted was the firmness of the outriggers.  Nothing else.  

I electronically regulated the speed to the same speed.  The band was the very same from one cut to another, and the two boards were successive cuts.  The board on the left is a very clean cut, almost zero marks and the photo tells it all.  If I was having issues with feed rate or band geometry this board would not have been dead flat. 

These boards were fed at a relatively high feed rate, I.e my normal speed, and is the same speed shown on my YouTube videos.  

I'm not saying there aren't other factors that affect smooth cutting, speed, band, etc, but it was not a variable in this specific experiment due to electronic speed control and matching speeds for this experiment.  

These waves were caused by visible head shake and and was fixed by better supporting of the mill feet. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

John S

YH, thanks for posting this!
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

JB Griffin

My experience says that what you have done must be a fluke or some sort of issue that I have never seen before.  I have sawn millions of bdft with silvertip turbo 7's and have seen the EXACT washboarding only when feeding too slow. In my experience the turbo 7 profile should be fed at no less than approximately 60 fpm (1 ft per second) depending on width of cut to avoid washboarding. 
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota with 6gpm hyd unit, 150 Prentice, WM bms250, Suffolk dual tooth setter

Over 3.5million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator.

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