low impact Logging?

[PeytonM]

I don't really know if this is the spot to post this but I was just curious of low impact logging and wanted to know how many members did it. I've been in the works of logging with horse's but I've had a rather slow start.

Thanks

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Do you only do horse logging?  Would be interested to hear about it.

Whereabouts do you log?

[thecfarm]

PeytonM,welcome to the forum.I cut a little on my land with a 40hp tractor. Use to do it for money,now it's just for my firewood. I call what I do low impact. But if logger does not know how to fall trees,he can make a mess. I even cut my brush into 2-3 foot long pieces. Gets on the ground and rots quicker.The pine limbs gets cut into pieces not much longer than 2 feet. I don't need a 3-4 inch piece of white pine limb going through my radiator.

[celliott]

Why not instead of low impact practices, utilize positive impact forestry practices? Leave the woods better than before, improve upon your forest.

[giant splinter]

Payton,
Most of the logging that I am involved in in considered low impact logging, I get involved in grading roadways and sitework for waterfront custom homes including slope stabilization, utilities, storm water control and building pads for some nice custom homes and ranches. The developers of these properties do not want to wipe out all the trees and always try to keep the best and healthiest trees to set off their projects, this involves some well thought out plans when it comes to clearing what has to go and not tearing up the trees and brush that are going to stay, often times includes stump removal in tight spots and dissecting some trees that cannot be felled without damaging some nice, valuable specimen keepers the will remain as part of the landscape. It always involves lots of rigging, winching, carrying logs and slash out without skidding and access or haul roads, to help get it done fast and clean, often times it seems like it might be the hard way of getting it done but it does accomplish the results needed.
These projects always cost more and take longer than the standard logging jobs and can be very boring for most real loggers to be involved with, many a pain in the neck and many a long day go into low impact and selective logging jobs, some days you won't get enough to the landing to make a load, in the end you win a few, you lose a few and some get rained out.  ;D

[Piston]

Like Cfarm, I also consider my personal logging setup "low impact".  I have a small tractor and try to carry the logs out of the woods, rather than skid them.  I try to cut and grind the stumps to reduce soil erosion. 

There are only a handful of people I've seen on here that do horse logging, but I find it very interesting every time I hear something about it. 

The term "low impact" has sort of become a catch phrase these days....

[ffpup]

I am in the process of getting set up to do logging with mules. I have located a savannah loader bed and a truck to put it on. If anyone knows of one that is already on a truck that could be bought reasonable please let me know. I have a team of mules and knowledge to work them. I have cut a lot of trees and run a 00 vance. So i thought what the heck. I don't need to make a lot of money just like to work my mules. I have a good job in the city with a lot of time off  ;D

[Mark Wentzell]

Low impact logging is great. 

  

 

[bill m]

Why not instead of low impact practices, utilize positive impact forestry practices? Leave the woods better than before, improve upon your forest.
[/quote
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Care to explain?

[celliott]

Why not instead of low impact practices, utilize positive impact forestry practices? Leave the woods better than before, improve upon your forest.
[/quote
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Care to explain?

I guess it depends how you interpret "low impact"
If you think of "low impact" as damage minimizing practices, then, you still are causing some damage, albeit less (a tractor and winch VS a Tigercat grapple skidder)
A positive impact leaves the forest better than it was. Yes, you are still making an impact on the forest, but instead of minimizing damage, you aren't damaging, rather improving.
Depends on interpretation I guess.
Where I'm getting this from, is a book I read for a silviculture class in college. Positive Impact Forestry: A Sustainable Approach to Managing Woodlands, written by Thomas McEvoy. A good read, I thought. I enjoyed the book. Need to read it again!

[bill m]

There's only one way to interpret low impact logging that I'm aware of and that is to use equipment and methods to limit disturbance to the forest. You can do positive impact forestry with any size equipment but you have a hard time doing low impact logging with big equipment.

[Piston]

There's only one way to interpret low impact logging that I'm aware of and that is to use equipment and methods to limit disturbance to the forest. You can do positive impact forestry with any size equipment but you have a hard time doing low impact logging with big equipment.

If I wanted could afford the "ideal" low impact logging setup, I would go with the exact setup you have.  No skid damage, no heavy footprints, low fuel consumption, maneuverable, and less chance of damaging other trees while on the move. 

(course you can't beat the fuel consumption of horses  :D)

[John Mc]

I've always felt that "low impact" logging depended more on the people involved than the equipment used.  Of course, there are limits to this, but horse loggers can do a tremendous amount of damage - as can any other kind of logger. There is still the potential for tearing up the access trails (setting them up for erosion and causing water quality issues), residual stand damage, & etc.

The mere fact that you are using a horse (or a forwarder, or a tractor, or whatever) doesn't make you low-impact. It's how you use the equipment.

BTW... I also found Thom McEvoy's "Positive Impact Forestry" book an  interesting read, though it did ruffle a few feathers in the industry.  Thom was the extension forester for Vermont for a number of years.  I attended a 2 or 3 day seminar he and Alan Calfee taught when the book first came out.

[Piston]

BTW... I also found Thom McEvoy's "Positive Impact Forestry" book an  interesting read, though it did ruffle a few feathers in the industry.  Thom was the extension forester for Vermont for a number of years.  I attended a 2 or 3 day seminar he and Alan Calfee taught when the book first came out.

John,
Is that book written for the average landowner, or is it a "difficult read" to all but professional foresters? 

[celliott]

Piston, it is an interesting read and I would say it's very understandable to a knowledgeable landowner (which I think is mainly the targeted audience) It is not written like a college textbook.

[thecfarm]

One guy at work tried to argue with me that horses made more of a mess in the woods because you can't ran over the brush with  horses.  : 

[John Mc]

It's been a number of years since I read it, but my recollection was that it was very readable.  I'm not a forester. I consider myself a "somewhat informed" landowner. I do not recall having much difficulty with it.

A couple of other good reads:

Working with Your Woodland: A Landowner's Guide (Revised Edition), by Mollie Beattie (it's been even longer since I read that, so I can't tell you much about it other than that I found it interesting.

More than a Woodlot: Getting the Most From Your Family Forest, by Stephen Long (former editor of Northern Woodlands Magazine)

You can find all of the above on Amazon (around here some local bookstores also carry them).

[hardtailjohn]

 

(course you can't beat the fuel consumption of horses  :D)

Depends on the "impact" you're talking about.... my wallet's impacted by the "fuel consumption" all of our Clydesdales a whole bunch!  :D (about 2 tons of hay every week, during the winter) :D
John

[Piston]

Thanks!  I've read "A Landowner's Guide" (a couple times) but I'll check out the other two. 

[John Mc]

Some of those books are drifting off the topic of low-impact logging and into more about goals  and approaches to working with your forest, but they're still interesting.

Piston, are you familiar with Northern Woodlands magazine? It's a quarterly publication. I always look forward to my copy.  It's a great balance between timber/forest products, wildlife and other considerations.

Northern Woodlands also has a few booklets out called The Place You Call Home. These are landowner-oriented, and an interesting read. THey're also inexpensive ($3 each). The description on their web site: a series of "owner's manuals" for people who own land in the greater Northern Forest region of New England and New York. Each manual includes how-to articles, discussion of land management options such as improving wildlife habitat or donating a conservation easement, tips for tracking wildlife, and contact information for government agencies, consulting foresters, and conservation organizations.

They've done editions for the Upper Valley of the CT River, the Catskills, Vermont, and New York.  They have plans to add versions for Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire, but I don't know what the status is of those.

[Offthebeatenpath]

I'd add "Low Impact Forestry: Forestry as if the Future Mattered" to the list.  It's a series of essays written by various folks and edited by Mitch Lansky.

I spent a couple winters trying to fit the niche between a horse logger and a small skidder operation (in terms of both production and impact) by using a rubber tracked skid steer to pull logs.  I also use hand powered winches to move single trees in certain applications.  There are some photos in my gallery (click the little camera below my avatar) if you feel like viewing the equipment.

I now have a small cable skidder and have found that "low impact" practices have as much to do with ability of the cutters and operators, time of year, overall cutting/skidding practices, and ground conditions as the equipment used. 

I have had very limited experience with stock animals- a few days cutting for a team of oxen- but I imagine those crews must have a winch on hand if/when trees get hung up.  What do you horse/mule/ox loggers do in when that happens?

[g_man]

I have a neighbor that keeps a horse. She and sometimes her friends uses my tractor roads in the woods for her/their trail riding place. From what I can see her horses do plenty of damage. And they always take the same route down the middle of the road and compact a nice rut for a water furrow. Just an observation. I know trail riding and logging are different.

[Ford_man]

I like the pic's the one with the team tied to the back of the trailer. The one must be "Mr Ed" it looks like he is talking to you. Maybe he is just ordering dinner.

[DbltreeBelgians]

 

(course you can't beat the fuel consumption of horses  :D)

Depends on the "impact" you're talking about.... my wallet's impacted by the "fuel consumption" all of our Clydesdales a whole bunch!  :D (about 2 tons of hay every week, during the winter) :D
John

I can relate to that very well John.  :D
And with the recent "Polar Vortex" we had last week here I noticed the used hay production in the barn was up quite a bit seeing how we had the boys closed in for a while.   

Brent

[Southside]

 

(course you can't beat the fuel consumption of horses  :D)

Depends on the "impact" you're talking about.... my wallet's impacted by the "fuel consumption" all of our Clydesdales a whole bunch!  :D (about 2 tons of hay every week, during the winter) :D
John

Holy - how many Clydes do you have?  I am fortunate we live in an area we can stockpile forage in the fall to offset a lot of our feed needs for the 3 spotted drafts we have, just throw them a flake of alfalfa each once a day for some additional protein. 

[hardtailjohn]

Southside,
We've got 8 Clydes and one Percheron right now....  most of them pregnant mares... they eat! :new_year:

[Piston]

John,
I haven't heard of that, I just checked the website and may subscribe.  Thanks for the info.

[Kemper]

We are high impact especially in this type of weather. But those land owners sure do like those high impact checks going into their account. We use better management practices, but with big heavy equipment and this type of wet there is only so much you can do.

[PeytonM]

I'm just starting out, I'm dealing with a lot of insurance BS right now, I've had a team of Belgians for 3 years and had some smaller horses I drove before the belgians. I started off just helping cut fire wood for people round me and mainly one woman where I keep my horses in the winter time. I enjoy felling trees and being out in the woods thought I'd look in to the whole horse logging gig.

I would agree that someone with a team of horses can make a mess, heck, anyone who goes in the woods can come out and leave a mess. I personally don't feel you can call any big skidder "low impact" you could go under like what was stated before leaving the forest in better shape than it was before. I see horse's in a class all on their own personally, I need 5 feet roughly, an ATV trail is big enough. When I would cut fire wood, I'd have the land owner mark the trees that could be cut, I'd start on one end and work to the other and very rarely have to cut any brush, My horses trust me and they are quite large so they can push their way through the thickets, I get wacked in the face a few times but its just part of the gig.

I feel there is a spot for horses and there's a spot for the modern tire/ crawlers machines. A land owner with a few acres of woods Horses I feel fit best, or a land owner that really wants their forest to be an investment, people that want pulp, clear cut, don't see it as an investment and just as some extra cash.

Just my personal views. 

[beenthere]

PeytonM
All very interesting.
What have you figured you would need to charge per hour (or per mbf) to log with your horses?

Will you shoot for a goal to make them pay for their keep? or figure a share of their expense as part of you hobby to have a team and go logging?

I can see the desire to own a team and as well, a desire to put them to work so they are not just standing around chewing on hay. Logging with them would be good.

Do you have a sleigh or wagon or some kind of tote to get chainsaws, and other logging equipment into (and out of) the woods as you cut through a stand?

[giant splinter]

Hmmmmm,
I wonder if you could tame a group of beavers to do the felling, I can bring them to you Payton and you wont need to train them in felling but i cant be sure that they will cooperate or be low impact. I do have one here nicknamed "Chewey" and it would be my first choice to see him gone, he prefers aspen and he is ok with the night shift ;D

[enigmaT120]

I watched a guy demonstrate cable yarding with a tractor-powered winch.  He had a skidding cone on the front of the log, and raised the rear of it with an early model of the Logrite Jr. Arch, and pulled it out that way.  It did very little damage to the forest duff.  He has almost no underbrush in that patch of woods, though, and it was pretty flat. 

[saxon0364]

I have logged with horses on and off for many years.  Ive also run a JD 440B or a TJ 225E just as long.   Some jobs are more suited to skidders, some to horses.   Horses, for the most part have less impact on a wood lot,,,,if handled correctly.   An uncaring teamster can skin up just as many trees that are going to be left standing as a bad skidder operator.    But its hard to dispute that horses leave less soil compaction if you dont keep on logging when things get wet.       Ive seen jobs done by some horse logging crews that really put a hurting on the timber stand.    It all comes down to the loggers themselves.    A good cutter that can fall trees accurately,  knows enough to not drop trees on valuable regeneration and considers witch way the tree will be skidded out can make or break the job.  A good teamster that knows how to pick his twitch trails and knows and cares enough to bridge or fill in wet areas is just as important.    Same goes for skidder operators.   Its the man running the machine that counts.   
      That being said Ive seen skidder operators with big wide skidders really struggle in thinning jobs.    For small  jobs, under 100 acres or less, small machines make life a lot easier.     But,,, right now Im doing a clearcut on a hillside harvesting about 200,000 BF or timber.    And I'd love to see a big cat on my landing.    :D

[PeytonM]

I wanted to get in the logging for two reasons,
1) I already have the draft horses, I use them to cut their hay and rake also use them to plow only use tractor to bale hay and if I disk.
2) I love working them and I like the woods so I looked in to working them in the woods. So its just another way I can use the horses and still make some money.

I agree it all is on the logger, using the right tools in the right spot.

Saxon, what kind of horses did you use?

[David-L]

Hey hardtailjohn, Whats a ton of hay go for in Montana. you feeding first cut or second. I make 5000 square bales annually. The 40 to 50 lb type. I am getting 6 bucks out of the barn for first and 7 for second. low impact for me is, a 225 Timberjack, a saw, axe, wedge's and frozen ground and good directional felling , and thinking about the next harvest down the road. Interesting subject.

                                            David l

[Mark K]

I can see both sides of this. I logged with a tractor and log winch for many years. I consider that low impact. Now I own bigger iron. I feel its in the operator. With properly planned skid roads and a 100 ft of cable on my drum I can reach alot of areas with little disturbance. We dont have many horse loggers in our area other than amish. Some skids on my jobs are over a mile skid where horses or farm tractors arent productive enough. The mill I cut for also will not let us pull whole trees, tops and all. Wood cannot be taken out less than 6" for firewood. Pulling tops does alot of damage. It may look cleaner in the woods without them but trees tend to get barked pulling them.

[saxon0364]

Saxon, what kind of horses did you use?

We are using Percherons right now. Best logging horse for my money.  Also have Haflingers although I think they are a little light for serious logging.   I spent quite a bit of time cutting for a guy that had the biggest team of Belgians Ive ever seen work in the woods, they were not cut and a little to hot for the woods if you ask me..    I posted some pics here but that was quite a while back, maybe a year. 

[hardtailjohn]

David_L, grass hay is about $120 a ton here this year...and I only get one cutting. Season's too short.

Most of the logging we get to do here on our ranch is in the winter, so our impact to the soil is usually pretty  low, being that it is frozen. Skidding in the winter is a lot nicer in a few ways... the logs slide easier and stay cleaner, not to mention the minimum soil disturbance, regardless if we're using the horses or our John Deere 350 crawler. 
John

[SwampDonkey]

I'm growing more commercial trees per acre now on my land than was there standing before a harvest in winter 1993. I've planted a lot, but also a lot of natural softwood and hardwood regrowth mixed in. And I have thinned it all out except my cedar regenerated areas, which are 1-3 acre patches. now I'm pruning fir poles for future logs. I'd say the woods are doing every bit as good and better than the old forest. Aside from scarification marks for the plantation, there are no skidder marks on the land at all. My land is also flat and drainage varies from poor (cedar, balm) to well drained (fir,spruce,hardwood). A clearcut always looks like a mess, but with proper tending, instead of turning your back on things, the new forest is as productive or better off than a piece of woods that has areas in the far corners that never get tended. A lot of low impact I have seen is someone cherry picking what they want for the moment , close and easy access and never really tending the whole piece of woods. If someone shows me their road side show case, I like to walk back into it 1/2 mile or more and see the rest of the story. Perception is everything. ;D

[Rick Alger]

What I have found is that there are  only way two ways to make a decent return with horses. The first is to cut very good wood with a short skid. The second is to get  paid hourly for pre-commercial thinning work. A horse can do acre after acre in narrow spacing without skinning a leave tree. Skidders operators can do the same, but it's not economical to run out a cable  just to winch in a single stem, move ahead, winch in another single etc.

[Black_Bear]

I personally don't feel you can call any big skidder "low impact" you could go under like what was stated before leaving the forest in better shape than it was before.

Just to play devil's advocate - for 3.5 years I worked with two 635D, 6-wheel, Tigercat grapples. Dual rear wheels with lags over the wheels - type it into Google for a picture. They are big machines. These machines float very nicely, and relative to a typical 4-wheel grapple our close out work was cut in half due to significantly less rutting. The weight displacement is spread throughout those big lags and they essentially seem to float. You get them in a deep snowpack and the following summer the ground in the cut is mostly undisturbed. Unlike 4-wheel skidders that tend to churn through the snow until you hit hard ground, these skidders pack the snow and ride on top, creating solid trail protection with little residual soil compaction. Excellent for cutting wet ground in the winter.

These skidders are usually placed in clearcuts, or some type of final removal, so the landscape changes dramatically and it is probably not considered low impact logging. But these big skidders, with talented operators, can leave a low impact result on the forest floor. They're expensive, you better be moving some wood. 

As mentioned a couple times in this post, harvesting systems work more efficiently when the proper equipment is used, and I don't have a problem with horse logging. I like to stop and occasionally watch some of the horse loggers around here. They all seem to be so laid back. I guess not having a $5000 fuel bill or no hefty loan payments will do that to a guy. One thing I learned a long time ago, you want to be out of the trail when that horse gets sent to the landing. 

[PeytonM]

I'm doing everything by the hour, and if someone cries about it then I cut the hour wage back some and take some wood off it. I look for people with only a few acres of woods where it isn't really worth a large set up to come out. I also like working some steep bluffs for the most part I've never really had too much up hill. I cut some fire wood out of my grandpas land for a cousin of mine and that was some steep stuff, thought his little John Deere tractor was gonna crawl up the hill in snow... not the case... mind you. its about 7 inches at the time. its 35hp diesel I'd say dont know the model.

[SwampDonkey]

Up here it would be almost impossible to cut wood by an hourly rate. What will work is piece meal. Both by the volume and by the acre. By the hour would be seen as a lot of time spent playing as the wood itself is generally not high value up here. Most people want to make a buck to come ahead with the wood harvested. On a building lot and clearing land is by the hour because there is more involved. I've seen a lot of time spent there to padding hours. After awhile you find yourself out of work because no one can afford you or your bill gets unpaid.

[Rick Alger]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply I get a lot of hourly work. I don't. But lately I have had a few of these opportunities.

For a young guy starting out, aiming for  hourly work  has to be the way to go. With today's prices, trying to make a go of any stumpage job that involves moving low grade wood is almost impossible with horses.

If I was starting out today, I would try to link up with "greeny" foresters and get indirectly written into the forest management plans of the newer class of landowners.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't see high society much spending money that way. Most will hold onto it like a vise. I know of one family who hasn't worked for 2 generations because their grandfather made money in the lumber business. These folks haven't cut a stick of wood in decades. They own woodland to. They don't need the money and not about to go behind having wood harvested to make a job for someone. They live like regular folks and very thrifty. Now if some maintenance or yard work needs done, they will pay there way without a complaint. And pay well to.

[Rick Alger]

Yup, Plenty of those kind around here too.

But the local  timber companies are divesting some of their holdings, and some of the new owners want to do "the right thing". It's with these folks I think that there may be a future for horse loggers and other low impact guys. To some of them timber is not merely a commodity. It's part of an ecosystem they intend to "protect." And the "protection" most of  them talk about is non-industrial forestry interventions - removing blowdowns, thinning from below, removing two or three wolf trees per acre for firewood etc. It's not really logging, but it may evolve into something popular enough to keep the low impact diehards going.

It's more of a feel good thing than a production thing. It can also be a way to get some very good forestry accomplished. A friend of mine is working on doing this on a large scale in Vermont.

So I hold out hope for low impact logging, but  probably not in my lifetime in this area.

[hardtailjohn]

This month's issue of the Draft Horse Journal has a really good article on Carl Russell and his horse logging. Well worth the read!
John

[SwampDonkey]

There is still a few horse loggers around here, but they are cutting a lot more than a scattered tree here and there. They are at a minimum thinning the stands, and a good many are just high grading and use the term 'select cut'. My response is always, 'yup, that's what is'. ;)

Atlantic Forestry magazine has articles once in a while on horse loggers. The latest NS woodlot owners of the year recipients in the last issue was a horse logger and his neighbor with a team of oxen. Folks that cut very small volumes on their own land. One fellow said he does about 12 acres of selection a year on 128 acre woodlot. That don't pay many bills. ;) But for me that situation works, because he can do it at his own pace on his own time and no big over head. It's certainly not a living. When you have to hire it, it changes the water on the beans.

[PeytonM]

all it takes though is a 15 acre stand of high grade lumber and the land owner wants the right thing. I was told logging with horses is like gold prospecting. some times you find a spot and there's a lot of money there and the next time there isn't much of anything for wood.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't get much of that up here, so it would be more like looking for platinum. There are lots of stands of small wood that would be nice in the future if properly managed but very few lots with any volume of veneer. The last 30 years have cut most any woodlot that was going to be cut around here. Just drive the roads and show me any big timber left. The single biggest comment I get from someone driving through NB is the wood looks pretty small. Yes, the mature timber is mostly all cut. People up here cut wood to pay the bills and to keep from freezing to death, not to make pretty. Now that most have been cut, they are going back and cutting the 30-40 year old stuff. None of which is big enough for good money, maybe 8"-9" and that is a big one and it will be a fir or a popple. Not high value trees. A neighboring farmer here is clearcutting what he has to pay the bills. His brother did the same, but the farm bills out weighed the wood money. Same thing will happen to him I suspect.

[Rick Alger]

Peyton, If you're into low-impact or positive impact logging, maybe your future will  be thinning 15 acre hardwood lots to make veneer for the next generation. The trick will be to get paid for more than the low grade wood you remove. You should get more because you are adding great value to the residual stand.

John, I know Carl and think highly of him. He's the guy in VT I was referring to. I'll have to dig up a copy of the magazine. 

[PeytonM]

Peyton, If you're into low-impact or positive impact logging, maybe your future will  be thinning 15 acre hardwood lots to make veneer for the next generation. The trick will be to get paid for more than the low grade wood you remove. You should get more because you are adding great value to the residual stand.

John, I know Carl and think highly of him. He's the guy in VT I was referring to. I'll have to dig up a copy of the magazine.

Thats my idea. It's a select market, so when I'm not logging with the horses, I want to do food plots for deer hunters, or dig gardens. wagon rides, anything else I can do that I can hitch my horse too.

What Carl are you talking about?

[northern2bodies]

made our name and knowed around the area for super low impact.we do about 60-80tons a day,1 cutter&1 oper.on a f-4dion fowarder at a avg.1500ft from road side.also in the line-up is a 550g deere dozer to help out on trails,skidding very short distance.also worked with a rotobec fowarder for 8+ yrs with days of 200+ tons to road side hauling up to 2500 ft away on 2 shifts in hard woods.the dozer does a great job at the end by re-habing trails  and pushing tops and brush off the main trails for use of atv's by the landlords.word gets around and it will get you more work that you can handle by doing a little bit more