Organic Gardens/farming

[Quartlow]

Anybody here organic farm or garden? Was just curious since I garden organic and my brother farms orgainc

[Robert R]

I am not certified but do garden and raise all our meat organically.  We raise about 80% of our vegetables for the year and then also a pittance of fruit but we wind up buying the vast majority of our fruit.  Haven't purchased meat in 5 years though--raise beef, pork, lamb and chicken.  Used to raise rabbits and also usually have venison and wild turkey as well.  Technically, our meat isn't organic as the feed I use isn't organic.  But we do not buy any feed that contains antibiotics or hormones.  Generally, all of our vegetables are also heirloom from self-saved seeds but I haven't gotten around to planting anything yet this year, so we will be frequent visitors to the local farmer's markets this summer.

[Linda]

I garden without chemicals.  I buy organic whenever possible. 

Every year we buy a side of beef raised on antibiotic/hormone free corn.  YUM!
We also buy foods without any petroleum based additives. 

As you probably know, petroleum is a poison.  Even so, it is allowed in our food in small quantities.   I don't think many people would go to the gas station and drink a little, but many people are unaware of how many little samples they get each day. Things like Artificial Colors (FD&C Red, Blue, yellow, etc), Artificial flavors, Polysorbate (emulsifier),  and preservatives (BHT, BHA, TBHQ, etc.)  You should see the warning labels on some of these in 50 gallon drums!  Not my idea of edible.smiley_sick

[Gunny]

We've been letting our stuff grow sans all the goodies at the hardware store and seem to get a pretty good crop year after year--as long as the sled dogs aren't let free to run--they love it all straight from the vine or bush!

I'm always interested in the language that the people who want to sell me their cans and jars of "applicants" use/create within their marketing ploys--they call it a "weed" while I call it (a dandelion, for example) "greens" and vino.  Guess their trash is my treasure.

Doubt it'll ever really catch on since people are so busy going to all those other places anymore.  But no corporate-cropped raspberry will ever come near to the quality of ours that grow wild along the fence row.  Same with our strawberries and the rest of our annual fare.  We quit "harvesting" the furry critters in these parts that run wild in the woods since they're packed with "cides".  Same with the fish.  Might be time to stock the pond? 

[Quartlow]

We've been letting our stuff grow sans all the goodies at the hardware store and seem to get a pretty good crop year after year--as long as the sled dogs aren't let free to run--they love it all straight from the vine or bush!

Thats a problem I have, the labs get into the tomatos all the time.  ;D At least they have good taste.

If things go right we should be able to can enough this year to get through till next years harvest. Brother gives me a big discount on pork and chicken and I get a decent discount on beef from his neighbor.

Next year I hoping to get a small greenhouse up so I can get an earlier start and get two plantings in. 

[crtreedude]

We are working at it - most of the stuff has no spray since it is wild. We have two very large Water Apple trees that are starting to bear - very interesting flavor, Imagine something between a apple and a rose. Hunderds of them on the trees - the trees are about 60 feet tall!

Coconuts don't require spray and the citrus and avocados seem to do pretty well just being neglected. Okra  crows like a tree - very well, very fast.

[Brucer]

We have an organic garden that supplies about 1/3 of our veggies. Our climate is a bit limiting, so we have to buy the rest -- 90% of it is organic or pesticide free. A neighbour raises chemical-free turkeys and chickens which supplies most of our meat.

There's a large co-op about an hour's drive away that sells organic produce, grains, and dairy. They've been going for 25 years now and have grown to the size of a small supermarket. About 3 years ago Barb saw 4 guys in suits walking about the store and making notes. She asked one of the clerks what that was about, and he told her they were from the local supermarket chain. "They come in every few months and walk around the place and try to figure out how we can stay in business selling organic stuff for twice the price of the non-organic stuff they sell." Gosh, maybe there was demand?  ;D

We've noticed in the last year more and more "mainstream" producers making organic product lines, and more and more of it appearing in supermarkets.

[bull]

Been there do that ????

ORGANIC defined : Matter that was once living and is now dead..  Yumm !!

Well managed and pesticide reduced.  IPM intergrated pest management.

If you  and your customers like worms OK, but Corn does need some treatment we do use ORGANIC Chemicals..... They are out there and work quite well....

Fertilizers *( where do they come from)* good old mother earth !!
PH  You do need LIME, especially if you are using COMPOST.... And be careful where you get your MANURE. 

Seaweed,kelp,fish meal,sea shells,etc.... MAY WANT TO THINK ABOUT THINKS THAT COME FROM THE OCEAN !!!   May be worse off than Agricultural chemicals...

[Quartlow]

Bull you bring up a couple good points, it's not so much the fertilizer but as to how the fertilizer is processed

From the OCIA Websites International Certification Standards
http://www.ocia.org/members/index.asp

Mineral fertilizers must be applied in the form in which they are naturally composed and extracted.  Minerals cannot be rendered more soluble by chemical treatment, other than the addition of water and mixing with other allowed, naturally occurring materials.  The Chapter Certification Committee or the OCIA International Office may grant exceptions on a case-by-case basis.  Exceptions cannot be granted for mineral fertilizers containing nitrogen.

As for corn, if it needs treatment tell me how my brother gets yields of only 22 bushels per acre below my wifes cousin who chemical farms? Proper crop rotations, planting of green manure and applications of on farm produced manure is all you really need.

If you  and your customers like worms OK,

As a matter of fact we do like worms, Worms are the key ingredient in my compost pile. Soil lacking in worm population will suffer from poor drainage and poor crop growth. As a result farmers apply more chemicals and then spend untold thousands of dollars putting in drainage pipe. 

Seaweed,kelp,fish meal,sea shells,etc.... MAY WANT TO THINK ABOUT THINKS THAT COME FROM THE OCEAN !!!   May be worse off than Agricultural chemicals...

Actually anything used on an OCIA certified farm has to come from an approved supplier, If you want to use something new, a chemical analysis has to be done and sent for approval. If it doesn't pass you can't use it.

The bad part of all this is that the FDA is now getting involved in what is considered "organic" and their standards are a lot lower than than the OCIA's

My brother has customers that buy his pork and chicken just for the taste alone. They could care less that it is organic. Most of these customers have been buying farm fresh products for years and claim my brothers is the best they have ever tasted.

[crtreedude]

Sigh,

The old Organic, non-Organic debate.

If I have to spray corn to grow it, I won't grow corn. Primarily used for fatting up people anyway. Lot's of other stuff much more interesting to eat, and a lot better for you.

The most important thing is to feed the soil instead of the plants - this reduces the need for sprays, etc. Plants are pretty good at fighting off the critters if they are healthy - just like us.

Also, unless you have a major infestation, it is better to wait and see if a natural predator will deal with it, instead of "Preventive Spray" where you are setting yourself up to be the only thing that kills off the nasties. Most pesticides are non-selective. Yes, they will kill the bad bugs, but they will kill the other ones too.

I do use pesticides when I have to - and I really don't make a difference between organic and non-organic. Arsenic is organic if I remember....

Fred

[sawguy21]

I do use pesticides when I have to - and I really don't make a difference between organic and non-organic. Arsenic is organic if I remember....
Most of the chemicals are based on natural ingredients. Ol Mother Nature produces some pretty potent stuff. I don't want to start a debate here but if the organic gardening schtick is your thing, go for it. I don't worry about it.

[Quartlow]

I guess after rereading my post I did come across like I was looking for an argument, which really wasn't my intention.

I'll go stand in the corner for 5 minutes  ;)

I was really just wondering since we do have some real farmers on here if some where farming this way or not. Some of the farm magazines are getting more articles on farmers that have gone back to the old ways of farming with good results.

[Gunny]

Guess I'll add a "groan" to crtreedude's "sigh" since someone always has to add something to the stews to spice them up--or distract from the actual intent of the thread. 

Last I read, this "organic" thing was growing at an exponential rate and was contributing bookoo BILLIONS of dollars into the American economy.  I'll opt for it as long as it remains out of the clutches of corporate control since the last big tide towards "feeding the world's hungry" has left our watersheds, lands, and the air we breathe--not to mention most of our wildlife (including we humans)--saturated with known carcinogens.  Never mind the standard defense of "Well, there's no scientific proof these herb/pesticides actually cause damage to the ecosystems" since there is, finally (and even during Rachel Carson's tenure) matured investigative research that dumping billions of tons of concocted chemical compounds onto this Earth is not a good thing to be doing.

The local village, some 6 miles distant, sits astride one of the largest toxic waste sites in the state of Michigan.  A crop-dusting outfit, through its misuse and mishandling of products for almost 50 years, has managed to--by last count by the MIDEQ--saturate the lands and local water table with approximately 70 known carcinogens, many KNOWN to be extremely dangerous to all living things.  Now that's progress, eh?  I once actually believed that we needed all that stuff so that we here in the US of A could produce that volume of crops so that we might feed the starving populations of the world.  But, at least in the 50-plus years that I've been following it, the same populations are starving today as were back in the '40s and '50s. 

I remember when the Eastern Blue Bird, the American Bald Eagle, and so many more of our natural creatures were literally on the brink of annihilation.  I also recall the reaction of those within the status-quo to those who shouted out the warnings to us all that we'd best be changing our ways.  Odd that the Prophets are always shouted down, isn't it.  But we've come one very long way in the last 30 years or so and, little by little, are recovering our natural beauties.  If the application of all the "cides" in the world had resulted in a cleaner, healthier environment for us all, I'd be delighted to shout the glories of the products from the nearest soapbox.  But that simply is not the case and many, many farmers and others like some within this forum have shifted approaches to the more future-friendly process.  At least our grounds won't be dotted with those "Bio-Danger" test wells like they are all over the village airport and adjoining private properties where the residents get their shipments of bottled water from the state weekly.

I wonder: If any one of us is absolutely inclined to retain the Chemical Ali mindset, why not start such a thread relative to that specific topic?  I might be the only one around who remembers that the only things that set off all our WMD alarms in the early days of the Iraq invasion were those stockpiles of agricultural herb/pesticides.  Maybe there's something to be learned from those alarms blaring that most folks just haven't thought about yet?

I'm for worms, humus, and good clean chickens#@t.  And the crops grown in it.  Have a memorable  holiday weekend all.

[bull]

Quartlow, the worms  i was refering to were ear worms army worms and cut worms..

I love earth worms...... 8) 8) 8) 8)

[SwampDonkey]

I'm fine with chemicals approved for agricultural use. Been eating food protected with the stuff all  my life. Can't be any worst than petroleum products shrink wrapped around the food we eat. The folks that are always singing the plastics tune, will never convince me it's not leeched in the food and medical products we consume. But, back to organics versus non-organics. It's a little misleading to say that food grown from using chemicals hasn't stopped starvation. Fact is, even if it weren't used it wouldn't stop it neither. Fact is those starving countries have no money to buy the food from the western nations producing it. And when it gets sent to those starving nations on releif programs, there is a distribution problem and much of it is sold on the black market. When you have no job to buy it, your still starving unless it handed out for free. Who can afford to feed the world for free? I'm sure the machinery manufacturer isn't going to give the machinery away to farm it. ;) Also, if it's organic like the store says, why does it cost more to buy it? You don't have to buy the chemicals or the fertilizer to put on it, so I'm not going to give you a higher price than the guy that has decided to use chemicals.

That's my story and I'm stickin by it. ;D

[Quartlow]

Also, if it's organic like the store says, why does it cost more to buy it?

IT's a lot more labor intensive, with conventional beans you plant spray and forget it till harvest time
With oranic beans your in the field 2 or 3 times a week running a rotary hoe up and down the row till the beans start to canopy.

so tis a trade off

Quartlow, the worms i was refering to were ear worms army worms and cut worms..

I love earth worms...... 8) 8) 8) 8)

Ahh ,, sorry had a brain fart, but I haven't seen any of those in years on my ears

[Al B]

Been doing the Organic thing for nigh on to 35 years.  For many years we grew everything.  "Finest Kind."
An advantage of introducing "organics" (compost/manure) over the years, was brought to mind yesterday.  I set a bunch of plants out, and also planted some seed.  The day and night before we were involved in having "inches" of rain, but the soil was about perfect a few hours later. 
I find that when I have a serious problem with a crop -disease or insects - that not planting it the next year usually takes care of it.  It doesn't happen much, but have done this a few times over the years. 
Also used to raise critters.  Ducks were great in the garden.  They kept insects at bay, and provided entertainment to boot.  Used to have a quacker that would nip at my dogs tail, then immediately look away.  You could almost hear it causually whistling....

[wiam]

I have about 140 acres of pasture/hay field, around 30 head of beef and raise around 30 broilers a year.  I try not to use any chemicals.  I have not put any commercial fertilizer on the fields in years.

Will

[Tom_Averwater]

Anybody got a organic cure for the striped cucumber beatle (sp) .

[SwampDonkey]

Get out the coffee can and hand pick'm and burn'm. 

I'de like to know what the cure is for colorado potato beetle and green peach aphid too.  :'(

[maple flats]

I tried not spraying my blueberries for about 20 years but the blueberry maggot (one worm/berry) got too much. I had to resort to spraying or give up on 4 1/2 acres of blueberries. I checked co-op extension and was told there is no other way. I now spray and have good berries. I do close the fields for twice the required waiting time before harvest just to be safer. Customers just do not like looking at a worm in their blueberries, it seems to be a turn off, I just can't figure why, extra protein at no extra price.

[Al B]

On cucumber beetles mix small amt. -handfull- wood ashes, and same amt of lime in a couple gals. of water.  Spray on leaves.  Knocks them out for a while.

Potato beetles are tough. Other than hand picking, I don't know a way.  I just try to keep their population at a moderate level.  They don't always co-operate.

Years ago had a real old timer for a neighbor.  We used to marvel at how insects will come from nowhere(?) to feast on a specific plant.  He would say that if we were to plant potatoes in the middle of the "big" woods - no fields even remotely near - he would expect the beetles to show up.  I agree with him.

He also used to talk about how he poached lobsters during the depression.  Quite a character he was.  He was well into his 70s and used to entertain my children by standing on his head and howling like a wolf.  I miss the old guy...