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Would you take this job?

Started by Patrick NC, November 18, 2020, 06:29:15 PM

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Patrick NC

Got a call today from a guy that has a bunch of 12-24" chestnut logs that were floor joists in a 160 year old house. He wants them cut into 5/4 boards. I told him I might be interested in the job, but it would be hourly and there would be a $25 charge for each blade that was destroyed by any metal that would inevitably be in the logs. He agreed that was fair. I guess the real question is has anyone sawed any reclaimed chestnut wood and how hard should I expect it to be?
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

Patrick NC

Should have proof read my post. They are 12-14" logs 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

moodnacreek

I always turn these jobs down but times change. A friend of my son had a pick up load of old 2x plank that I would burn. He wanted them planned and we directed him to a shop that would do custom planing . The stuff had the normal rusted/snapped off cut nails. I said the shop would tell him where to go. He got the wood back all done for the regular charge plus a new set of indexable carbide.            On this chestnut [ truly beautiful wood] make sure the guy will pay for all the bands you need.  Alot of people have too much money today.

WV Sawmiller

   Yes. If he agrees to the terms as you described them to him I would do so.

   I have re-sawed redwood, Paulonia firewood sized chunks, treated 4X4's into 3 boards each, etc. and have no regrets. What I will turn down from personal experience and from reading here is equipment mats and treated utility poles. The mats were full of sand and ate up blades as fast as I could change them and chemicals in the utility poles keep me away from them.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Brad_bb

I wonder if the resultant wood will be what he expects.  When a timber dries and checks, especially oaks, it can have a series of checks that show up periodically along the length.  Could be every foot or  every 3 feet.  My point is, it may not be clear wood like in a freshly sawn green log where the board is dried.  It's degraded from the checking of the timber.  

There may also be insect damage that may not be desirable.  I was cutting 3 inch skins today off of two opposing faces of hewn white oak barn timbers that are about 11x9.  The outside faces that we want look good- hewn and only some PPB holes.  The wood inside had the issues I described above.  Milling them into 5/4 boards for flooring probably would not have been a good use for the wood.  

12"-14" logs are not going to have many boards outside of the pith.  I wonder if they wouldn't be better used as faux rafters or floor joists?  Clean and wheel brush the outside.... Cut a second flat if you want to see the grain.  I'm assuming these logs are round with either one hewn face, or two opposing hewn faces?  I wonder how much PPB damage they have?

Nails are another issue.  Depending on how many, you could spend a lot of time de-nailing.  If they get re-used as exposed rafters or floor joists, you don't have to denail them, just flush them.

Taking the job depends on how well informed the customer is.  I'd have no problem doing the denailing, cleaning, etc, but will it be worth the cost for the customer?

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Southside

I used to do some reclaimed re-work for a customer. Resawing old beams, poles, etc into flooring.

My suggestion would be to get a few decent sized boulders and set them on the mill so you can get a feeling for what your sawing speed and band consumption will be. Won't quite be as hard as the Chestnut logs themselves, but pretty close. 

I would do the job, but it would definitely be hourly and all bands. Even if you don't hit metal you are going to trash most of those bands with embedded dirt, stone, and just the friction of sawing hard, dry, lumber. Your bands will run hotter than normal and suffer fatigue. 

You can turn out some beautiful lumber from those beams, just make sure you and the customer understand the expenses that will be incurred in doing so. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

Brad,

   You are not thinking these are Chestnut oak are you? As I read the OP these are true American Chestnut logs which I'm thinking are pretty good to saw. I never thought of them as being in the oak family. The de-nailing would be my biggest concern and I'd lay that clear in the customer's lap or he'd be buying the replacement blades as was apparently discussed. Even though fairly small woodworkers love that old chestnut and 3-4 inch boards may still be desirable and used.

   I'm not sure if a band will survive a hit with a severely rusted out nail of that age. I sawed through a Red Oak that was evidently a line tree with an old wire fence and lots of that was pretty powdery metal.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Patrick NC

Quote from: Brad_bb on November 18, 2020, 07:44:31 PM
I wonder if the resultant wood will be what he expects.  When a timber dries and checks, especially oaks, it can have a series of checks that show up periodically along the length.  Could be every foot or  every 3 feet.  My point is, it may not be clear wood like in a freshly sawn green log where the board is dried.  It's degraded from the checking of the timber.  

There may also be insect damage that may not be desirable.  I was cutting 3 inch skins today off of two opposing faces of hewn white oak barn timbers that are about 11x9.  The outside faces that we want look good- hewn and only some PPB holes.  The wood inside had the issues I described above.  Milling them into 5/4 boards for flooring probably would not have been a good use for the wood.  

12"-14" logs are not going to have many boards outside of the pith.  I wonder if they wouldn't be better used as faux rafters or floor joists?  Clean and wheel brush the outside.... Cut a second flat if you want to see the grain.  I'm assuming these logs are round with either one hewn face, or two opposing hewn faces?  I wonder how much PPB damage they have?

Nails are another issue.  Depending on how many, you could spend a lot of time de-nailing.  If they get re-used as exposed rafters or floor joists, you don't have to denail them, just flush them.

Taking the job depends on how well informed the customer is.  I'd have no problem doing the denailing, cleaning, etc, but will it be worth the cost for the customer?
This is American Chestnut and I gather from the conversation we had that this guy deals with a lot of reclaimed lumber. He is aware that it's his responsibility to remove all the nails he can find and that there will be nails that he missed. I'll probably order a box of 4 degree blades for this if I decide to do the job. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

woodyone.john

Lift your blade charge and use carbide tipped blades. It should be a flyer.
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

Larry

Been there done it.

Posts and beams from an old aircraft hangar on a military base.  Mostly posts, some 16" square.  It was interesting as all the posts had about an 1-1/2" hole drilled about where the pith would be.  Hardly any cracks in the posts.  The lumber was beautiful and most went for flooring in a 6,000 square foot house.

Lots of metal in the posts.  Pulling nails can pay just as good as milling.  Still missed some.  This was a long time ago and no real choice on bands.  I was regrinding WM 10 degree bands to about 4-5 degrees to try and make it through the nails.  The wood really sawed well. 

I would do it again for the right price. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

SawyerTed

Yes I'd do the job on an hourly rate to include carbide blades and any necessary help.  The blades would be considered "one use" so pricing would include this.  Don't undervalue your service and expenses because you want the job (buying work).  

I've had several opportunities to quote unusual jobs.  About half were shopping for someone who would undervalue their work and/or underestimate expenses.  The other half knew my quote was fair for the work involved.  You can always "bill" less than "quoted" if the job doesn't cost you as much.  And that may earn more repeat business than lowballing up front.

Chestnut will mill much like very dry white oak - see Southside's comments about milling boulders.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

kelLOGg

I sawed reclaimed wormy chestnut for a friend. Logs weren't very big and there was no problem sawing them. They were full of holes and I wondered if he could make them work. He is a master woodworker and he turned the lumber into a dining room table with the worm holes filled with a black filler giving it a lot of accent which made it beautiful. Sorry, no pics so I guess it didn't happen but it really did. :D
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DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

scsmith42

Patrick, if you've stopped by the NC State Fairgrounds Blacksmith's shop in the past 4 years, you've seen some chestnut logs that we milled.

Back in 2016 Agricultural Commissioner Steve Troxler donated some reclaimed log cabins to the fairgrounds to serve as the new blacksmith's shop.  The longest logs were around 32', chestnut and we milled on face flat on all of the sill plate logs so that they would mate up well to the new foundations.

Chestnut mills like a dream (even when dry). Fortunately we did not encounter much metal because the cabin's dated back to the 1700's and nails were expensive back then.  Below is a pic of the completed blacksmith's shop.




 


I think that your plan is a good one, and I wouldn't hesitate to try it.  $25 might be a little low for the bands though (mine cost around $35 but are probably longer than yours).


A few years back we used our swing blade mill to hollow out some 35' reclaimed oak beams so that they would slip over some i-beams w/o any seams.  Took us 4 days to get all of the metal out of them, and we still hit metal.  

Below are a couple of pix of the process.  In the top pic we are making narrow swing blade cuts to hollow out the old beams.  The second pic is of one end of the completed beam.



 

 


At the time I purchased several different nail pullers to see which one worked best; turned out a 100 year old cast iron slide hammer model that I bought off of e-bay worked better than any modern alternative.  

Here is a link to one similar to it:

Vintage/Antique Slide Hammer Nail Puller | eBay

Best of success to you.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Brad_bb

The old slide hammer nail pullers do work well, but you must occasionally sharpen the jaws with a dremel tool and a coarse sanding roll.  Sharpen the inside of each jaw, then close them together and sweep over both so that you have a smooth radius and the jaws meet nicely.

You use the slide action to hammer the jaws to the base of the nail, or sometimes into the wood.  Make sure you don't have any wood chips on the jaws or they won't grip the nail.  To pull raise the slide hammer to give you more leverage and use your lower hand gripped low pushing slightly forward as you rock back with the puller handle to make the jaws close tightly on the shank of the nail.  Old iron nails can be soft and can some times pinch off from the jaws.  Some later round nails can sometimes be brittle and break off.  You'll get a feel for the puller gripping the nail shank.  Sometimes you have to drill around the nail with an 1/8" bit to loosen and hammer the jaws down into the wood to get a grip.  There's a a little bit of a learning curve with this tool.

They do sell new ones on amazon.  I've gone through a few.  Sharpened them so many times that I finally had to toss them on the scrap pile.  Crescent 19" Nail Puller - 56 - Crescent Nail Puller - Amazon.com
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Patrick NC

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 19, 2020, 12:20:07 PM
Patrick, if you've stopped by the NC State Fairgrounds Blacksmith's shop in the past 4 years, you've seen some chestnut logs that we milled.

Back in 2016 Agricultural Commissioner Steve Troxler donated some reclaimed log cabins to the fairgrounds to serve as the new blacksmith's shop.  The longest logs were around 32', chestnut and we milled on face flat on all of the sill plate logs so that they would mate up well to the new foundations.

Chestnut mills like a dream (even when dry). Fortunately we did not encounter much metal because the cabin's dated back to the 1700's and nails were expensive back then.  Below is a pic of the completed blacksmith's shop.




 


I think that your plan is a good one, and I wouldn't hesitate to try it.  $25 might be a little low for the bands though (mine cost around $35 but are probably longer than yours).


A few years back we used our swing blade mill to hollow out some 35' reclaimed oak beams so that they would slip over some i-beams w/o any seams.  Took us 4 days to get all of the metal out of them, and we still hit metal.  

Below are a couple of pix of the process.  In the top pic we are making narrow swing blade cuts to hollow out the old beams.  The second pic is of one end of the completed beam.



 

 


At the time I purchased several different nail pullers to see which one worked best; turned out a 100 year old cast iron slide hammer model that I bought off of e-bay worked better than any modern alternative.  

Here is a link to one similar to it:

Vintage/Antique Slide Hammer Nail Puller | eBay

Best of success to you.

Scott
My bands are $19 plus tax including shipping. 167"x1.25 Kasco 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

Nebraska

Seems like a good excuse to try a 1.5 inch 4 degree band or two.  :) 

Peter Drouin

I did some.


 

 

 

 

 
2 truck loads of it.


 

 
And I don't care what some say even with 2 guys pulling iorn. You will go throught some blades.  :o :D :D :D :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

WV Sawmiller

Pete,

   Now for the million dollar question. Knowing what you know know now from your previous experience, would you do it again if someone asked you to do so? ???
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Peter Drouin

For the $125.00 an hr  plus blades 
YES.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

goose63

Jeff not our Jeff brought these over 100 year old doug fir 



 

And I cut them into these



 



 

Thy were hard to cut and I found 10 nailes

goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

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