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Skid steers

Started by Redhorseshoe, October 21, 2021, 11:09:38 PM

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nativewolf

@Nebraska - sorry bout that- funny how the mind connects things and I'm glad walnut beast chimed in, I knew we had an honest ASV proponent somewhere.  

@Walnut Beast - that new ASV sounds like a crossover to the smaller special purpose CMI 125s or small lamtracs.   I would be very interested in seeing one of those in 2 years.  Could be a game changer.  

I'd like to see a different head on it though.  Wonder what it looks like with an FAE head?  You'd have all the advantages of a skidsteer quick connect implement package and the ability to go mulch if needed.  If the tail has some weight I bet it would do fine lifting a log. 
Liking Walnut

Patrick NC

ASV does build a good undercarriage, I'll give them that. CAT has been using it for years on their MTL machines( all skidsteers with numbers ending in 7. 257, 277,287, etc). But all of their CTLs (numbers ending in 9. 259, 279, 299,etc.)have a Cat undercarriage with steel rollers and different tracks. The ASV undercarriage just wouldn't stand up to the abuse of running in highly abrasive environments such as crushed stone or sandy material. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

jimbarry

Undercarriage...been there, done that.


 

 

 

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Patrick NC on October 30, 2021, 07:23:06 PM
ASV does build a good undercarriage, I'll give them that. CAT has been using it for years on their MTL machines( all skidsteers with numbers ending in 7. 257, 277,287, etc). But all of their CTLs (numbers ending in 9. 259, 279, 299,etc.)have a Cat undercarriage with steel rollers and different tracks. The ASV undercarriage just wouldn't stand up to the abuse of running in highly abrasive environments such as crushed stone or sandy material.
Disagree.  People do it all the time. The bogies can be destroyed and still run fine. There are companies that make all metal ones for the ASV. 

YellowHammer

Well, that stack of parts looks pretty expensive...

How many hours before you did the rebuild?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Bruno of NH on October 30, 2021, 02:52:30 PM
That's a bunch of bull on bending one of the jcb arms
They have made Loadalls for years with the same type set up.
I put my money on a standard skid steer type arms bend first.
They must have a Patten on it or everyone else would be doing it. And they know if they could build them that way they would.
I thought the same thing but a guy that was looking at one for mulching was looking for opinions and two different guys that owned them twisted them from mulching 🤷‍♂️

Walnut Beast

Do you think ASV is going to have a two year/2,000 hr. warranty on everything plus the track system if everything needs replaced before that all the time by the dealers under warranty. There are guys running much longer than that and less. Many variables on the tracks and undercarriage of all makes 

Gary_C

Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 30, 2021, 09:56:10 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on October 30, 2021, 02:52:30 PM
That's a bunch of bull on bending one of the jcb arms
They have made Loadalls for years with the same type set up.
I put my money on a standard skid steer type arms bend first.
They must have a Patten on it or everyone else would be doing it. And they know if they could build them that way they would.
I thought the same thing but a guy that was looking at one for mulching was looking for opinions and two different guys that owned them twisted them from mulching 🤷‍♂️

So a guy you know talked to a couple of guys he knows that claimed to have twisted not one but two arms?

Just can't imagine why we might NOT believe those third hand tales.  ::)

Got any pictures? 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

mike_belben

Quote from: YellowHammer on October 30, 2021, 09:46:09 PM
Well, that stack of parts looks pretty expensive...

How many hours before you did the rebuild?
Thats about half the pile of parts under an ASV/cat bogie bottom. Look at microfiche for part 372-5769
Praise The Lord

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Gary_C on October 31, 2021, 12:47:39 AM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 30, 2021, 09:56:10 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on October 30, 2021, 02:52:30 PM
That's a bunch of bull on bending one of the jcb arms
They have made Loadalls for years with the same type set up.
I put my money on a standard skid steer type arms bend first.
They must have a Patten on it or everyone else would be doing it. And they know if they could build them that way they would.
I thought the same thing but a guy that was looking at one for mulching was looking for opinions and two different guys that owned them twisted them from mulching 🤷‍♂️

So a guy you know talked to a couple of guys he knows that claimed to have twisted not one but two arms?

Just can't imagine why we might NOT believe those third hand tales.  ::)

Got any pictures?
The twisting they we're talking about was just twisting or flexing not bending 

Patrick NC

Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 30, 2021, 10:08:16 PM
Do you think ASV is going to have a two year/2,000 hr. warranty on everything plus the track system if everything needs replaced before that all the time by the dealers under warranty. There are guys running much longer than that and less. Many variables on the tracks and undercarriage of all makes
I am in no way knocking ASV or their undercarriage. It's a great system designed for speed and high floatation.  I'm just making observations from what I've seen personally.  Around here a machine with an ASV undercarriage is going to be used in a forestry or landscaping application 95% of the time. Most construction sites are going to have machines with non ASV track systems.  I've used both and each has their place. If I'm going into an area that I need a light footprint,  it will certainly be an ASV ou cat MTL. The cat 259 CTL won't come close to going where an ASV style will in soft ground.  But on the other en of the spectrum,  heavy pushing and abrasive material is where the cat CTL system really shines. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

Brad_bb

Sorry I haven't read all the responses, but I'll say that a skid steer would not be my first or second choice around the mill.  The visibility with forks is not good on skid steers.  Also tracked skid steers are not nearly as smooth a movement as say a rough terrain forklift, which would be my recommendation.  I have a small Farmall BN forklift conversion that will lift 2500LBS and has great visibility.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

YellowHammer

I agree, it's not optimized for a sawmill alone, but I have other primary equipment for that.  I want something that can do what my sawmill equipment can't, and for that matter, only a tracked vehicle has been able to do.  However, I want to be able to use it as a backup or secondary for my sawmill equipment.   

I haven't found the perfect machine, as usual.  However, I have learned quite a bit of very valuable information from this thread and a couple other here, so thank you everyone for their input.  

I've looked at two dedicated wheel loaders, with a minimum of 6,000 lift, I would prefer 8,000 lb, high maneuverability, low maintenance, and easy access would work well on flat ground.  I use a New Holland custom built skip loader style hybrid tractor with 6,500 lift and it's great, but it uses wheels.  I also have a 6,000 Cat forklift for use around the mill, and it has the minimum lift capacity I can really use.  I've used and looked at several dedicated wheel loaders, but none can take any kind of slope, as they have a high center of gravity.  They all use wheels, and I have lots of slope on our farm, with 3.5 miles of fence where wheels won't work, and don't want to invest a $100,000 in single use machine that can't go everywhere and anywhere with attitude.  I have slopes where even a 4wd Polaris will spin all four tires and just sit there.  I keep trying my New Holland, and it either spins 4 tires or tries to roll over.  So I'm done trying that.  So for years I have neglected earth moving, mowing, brushing, mulching, etc and am more leaning toward a machine to do what I can't do right now, which would require tracks, and also use it as a secondary machine for the sawmill.  I even had a couple "slope" mowers brought out to try, but they all have wheels, and four wheels simply spin, and I can't cut ditches or push dirt with them anyway.  One reason I want to push dirt is to turn some of the nasty slopes into not so bad slopes.  

However, I have rented dozers before, for weeks at a time, for thousands of dollars, and they will traverse everything I own and even do significant work.  However, I don't want a bulldozer, they have limited attachments, and I can't use them around a sawmill.  I run a business and can't just stop work to run a dozer for weeks, year after year,  I need something I can use a day a week on the farm for 5 years, and then use it the rest of the time for the sawmill.  

So I'm looking for a cross between a wheel loader and a bulldozer, and the only thing I see that fits the bill are Compact Track Loaders.  My measured slope angles where I start to get into trouble are about 18° and that's where a wheel vehicle about rolls over or tires simply spin.  I'm getting too old for that.  

There are a few CTLs that have the lift capacity I need, the Deere 333g and Bobcat seems best, with boom breakout forces in the 8,000 range.

The JCB has by far the best entry which I really, really like, with a side door and even an extend a boom, and even though the dealer is a long way away, it doesn't come close to the lift capacity I need, they only weigh 7,000 lbs by themselves.  I have contacted the JCB corporate to see if I've missed something.  So far, nada.  If not for that, I'd probably get one.  

I really like the ASV MTL style track, but ASV doesn't have the lift capacity.  I need a machine that can lift as much as my other machines, preferably more. I'm not that worried about the higher maintenance, I would be using it in a "wood lot" scenario, at the sawmill and the farm.  I've looked at the ASV 120, but new, with attachments, it's well above my $100,000 budget.  Again, if not for the lift capacity, I'd probably own one of them, also.  

I hired a guy who said he could do anything I needed with his backhoe and he almost died, twice, before I sent him in his way.  He had wheels, and I needed tracks.  Scared the crap out of me, and it only reinforced the "no wheels" plan.

I've looked at trackhoes, full size track track loaders, minis, etc and it still seems a CTL is the best fit, but I can't find one that's easy to get into, has a nearby and competent dealer, has the required lift capacity, and is under $100,000.

So I'm kind of "stuck".  



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

wisconsitom

Those CTLs sure are nice machines.  Kid used one to excavate our pad for building.  No slope where this is, but just a good digging/leveling machine.

This one said Cat on it.  I can't remember the model.
Ask me about hybrid larch!

OH logger

I've got a 2 year old Bobcat T870. Awesome machine that I see NO reason to replace with a different make or model. Pm me if you have any specific questions 
john

Gary_C

Quote from: YellowHammer on November 02, 2021, 08:16:06 AM
The JCB has by far the best entry which I really, really like, with a side door and even an extend a boom, and even though the dealer is a long way away, it doesn't come close to the lift capacity I need, they only weigh 7,000 lbs by themselves.  I have contacted the JCB corporate to see if I've missed something.  So far, nada.  If not for that, I'd probably get one.  

  

I'm kind of surprised by that. The JCB Teleskid 3TS-8T weighs 12,615 lbs. and has a rated tipping load of 10,558 lbs. The rated capacity is 3,695 lbs. and I don't know how different manufacturers rate their machines but I think it would do everything you need. 

Go to jcb.com/teleskid and book a demo and find out.  
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Gary_C on November 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 02, 2021, 08:16:06 AM
The JCB has by far the best entry which I really, really like, with a side door and even an extend a boom, and even though the dealer is a long way away, it doesn't come close to the lift capacity I need, they only weigh 7,000 lbs by themselves.  I have contacted the JCB corporate to see if I've missed something.  So far, nada.  If not for that, I'd probably get one.  

 

I'm kind of surprised by that. The JCB Teleskid 3TS-8T weighs 12,615 lbs. and has a rated tipping load of 10,558 lbs. The rated capacity is 3,695 lbs. and I don't know how different manufacturers rate their machines but I think it would do everything you need.

Go to jcb.com/teleskid and book a demo and find out.  
Gary is correct. There are three different models in that weight range give or take a few thousand pounds. YH I would take a hard look at the JCB for sure. For what your going to do all around plus sawmill the side door is a game changer if you have the loader up in the middle and need out. All of the bigger units are going to lift more in the lower positions. As for the fifty percent tipping load. It is calculated when the bucket is fully loaded at full extension. It's been awhile but I think I'm correct on that.  I don't think your going to go wrong with any of the bigger units they are all pretty nice

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Brad_bb on November 02, 2021, 01:26:21 AM
Sorry I haven't read all the responses, but I'll say that a skid steer would not be my first or second choice around the mill.  The visibility with forks is not good on skid steers.  Also tracked skid steers are not nearly as smooth a movement as say a rough terrain forklift, which would be my recommendation.  I have a small Farmall BN forklift conversion that will lift 2500LBS and has great visibility.
Maybe some makes but  with pilot controls on all the ASV and CAT units I had they where just as smooth and precise as the wheel loader. Plus in the computer you can adjust boom speeds up and down on the ASV

luap

 



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Decal on the front says stand 300 feet away and they are'nt kidding. If I knew how to do the tube thing, I have a couple of videos of the wood chips flying. 









230Dforme

Good evening 
Not replying to all of the discussion, I don't have a
skid steer because I think they are an overpriced 
piece of equipment used, for my use
I do have a skidder, Gradall 524 forklift and other
equipment 
My favorite though, for Yellowhammer, is my dozer
a Dresser LGP TD9 w risers and a ripper
Don't need the ripper, but have receiver hitch on
it, great for moving trailers around and may fabricate an arch for it
Always happy to be on the dozer, one piece of the 
equipment puzzle 



















scsmith42

Robert, add the Takeuchi TL12v2 to your list. 111 hp.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

I agree, I may be reading the charts wrong.  I have a call in with the JCB mothership, to find out the answers. 

From the JCB brochure, their biggest unit, the 3TS-8T weighs in at 12,618 lbs.  It's Rated Operating Capacity is 3,695 which I believe is their 50% capacity so full capacity would be 7,390 lbs which isn't bad.  It's also rated at 74 hp, which is the lowest hp for any 12,000 machine I've looked up.  

It lists a tipping load of 10,558 retracted which is good.  

One the other hand, their documentation lists "Loader Lift capacity Retracted" as only 5,187 lbs, which I also think is their breakout force, or what it can lift off the ground. That's too low, I need 6,000 lbs or so, I have logs I can't lift now, and my packs of wood are based on the lift capacities of my other machines, which are higher.  In contrast, the 333G Deere has a bucket breakout or lift force of 8,300 lbs.  This tracks very closely with Jake's estimate that he can lift 8,400 lbs.  

Based on their documents the max lift with the loader extended is just 3,706 lbs, and a ROC extended of only 1,614 lbs which isn't much at all.  Also, apparently, the machine will not run, on purpose by design, any kind of mulcher or auxiliary hydraulics when extended, which is what I would really like. So I have lots of questions for the JCB rep.  I may look at their non extendable version.  Of course, the nearest dealer is a painful $1,000 warranty drive every trip according to the dealer.  That can get expensive real quick.  

I have been looking at the Kubota.  

I have a Bobcat dealer in town, I need to go look at an 870.  

I haven't looked at any Takeuchi machines yet, I will give them a visit.  

One other issue I'm dealing with is I'm 6'5" with an artificial hip, and some of these machines seem to be built for slightly smaller folks.  So cab and door size is important.  For example, the Deere 333G has a terrible entrance, with the door frame tapering to only a foot or so wide at the bottom door threshold, which actually made it difficult to get in.  However, it was roomy once I got inside.  

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's input, I thought I would be able to just pick one and go with it, but there are lots of trade offs.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

OH logger

Been looking and investigating JCB skid loaders to replace my open cab bobcat 175 at my yard. Want a cab and Need to get in and out with boom up so I thought I was destined for a Kubota. Like the looks of JCB. Anyone here with experience with em? 
john

Walnut Beast

YH while you are looking at everything you better look at the new Case TV 620B for your serious lifting capacity. The machine weights 16k 😂

Gary_C

Quote from: YellowHammer on November 02, 2021, 09:23:18 PMIt's also rated at 74 hp, which is the lowest hp for any 12,000 machine I've looked up.  
  

I have the same 74 hp engine in my JCB 300 and a guy I know with a New Holland told me many of the manufacturers are derating their SS engines at just under 75 hp as that is the cutoff for not needing the DEF system. I've never been short of power with my JCB 300.

I did a lot of comparing weight ratings of different machines last January when I bought my skid loader and I never could find comparable ratings between different manufacturers. They all seem to have a different rating system. That's why I would just try to get a demo and find out for yourself if it will do what you want.

For anyone looking for a skid loader right now, from what I've seen there are few for sale and the used prices are waay up although the new machine price has not gone up much. I suspect availably is not going to be very good right now. For example the used machines like mine have gone up by +50% from last spring. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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