OldJarheads Milling Thread...

[OlJarhead]

Got another response thanking me for the information I provided and he told me he plans to sell the rest of the logs as firewood.  What started as 100 logs, climbed to 155 logs turns out to be more like 30 logs >:( ???

Yup, I continue to pass but I did advise that his quote from the other guy shouldn't be over $3k since the max is only 6000bf and that's if he can mill everything on the large sizes the guy wanted (3" vs 2" for some and 8" vs 10" for some)...low end should be $2400 for 4800 bf not $3k

Good lesson in customers communicating something other than what they want ;)

[Brucer]

You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run ....

;D ;D

[Peter Drouin]

After a while you are able to read customers as well as you can cut lumber.
:D :D ;)

[Bandmill Bandit]

Brucer BUT it so true and Peter you nailed it.

I'll never understand cutting up good logs for firewood any more than I can understand how to cut 2" X 8" out of 5 inch fire wood logs.

I actually had on guy ask me why I couldn't cut them on a diagonal line so I would get wider planks. I gave him a tape and said you show me how to cut that (next on the roll way) log diagonal to get a 2 X 8. I was cutting 2 sides leaving a 4" dunnage skid to stack lumber on and he though I was wasting logs. It was even dicy getting dunnage out of about half of the little stuff. He was not happy when I would pitch one off the roll way and then tell him that that ones wasnt even good fire wood.

He spent about 10 minutes going from one end to the other with the tape and then said well you can get a 2 X 6 if you start from the other end. I looked at him and said ok I'll do that. I was biting tounge so hard I am sure it was bleeding.

I turned the log and leveled and was about to cut when he said no no you have to have the log level to the blade. I was almost choking at this point but I leveled it as per his measuring, took off the first slab and said ok now what?

He said flip it over and level it again. So I took my "teachers" advice levelled again and cut as instructed.

when that cut was done he had a bit of interesting look on his face but said to repeat for 3rd cut so I did. I had to go behind a tree and pee before I did or I would a wet my pants. I did the same procedure 2 more times and then he takes the tape and shows me that there is a 2X6 I can cut out of the end facing me. BUT I still have to level a cant with 4 square sides.

My son showed up about then and looks at the mill and says what the hell is that. The guy says I am showing your dad how to cut a 2X6 out of a small log. Steve just about busted a gut with his laugh cause he knows the guy from doing computer work for him.

Steve took the tape and went to the small end and showed him the 4" ish measurement and said to the guy this is a sawmill not a lumber expander but that would make a nice flag pole. The guy stood there for a about a minute and then says how did that happen? I did every thing right! 

I trimmed it to a 4X4 and then he is looking at the wedges and is so totally bewildered I finally had to let the laughter go cause I couldn't hold it any more.

I tried to explain log taper but he just didn't get it. he asked me well when you cut off the bark you have a square log that is the same on both ends.

I gave up. He is a psychology professor.

     

[OlJarhead]

Oh lord I couldn't have done that!  I would have said "sure, let's do it, just remember you pay me $85/hr so this might be the most expensive attempt to make a 2x6 out of a 5 inch log but hey, it's your 85 bucks " and waited for him to decide....

[Bandmill Bandit]

Yea Erik
That is a good approach too but I am not sure this guy would even get that.

2 Weeks after I was done his job I ran into him in church and he was still trying to figure it out.

I said "John! you need a minimum 10" ROUND tree small end to get a STRAIGHT 8" plank. He says but and 8 inch tree should give you an 8 inch plank.

you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.   

[grouch]

Yea Erik
That is a good approach too but I am not sure this guy would even get that.

2 Weeks after I was done his job I ran into him in church and he was still trying to figure it out.

I said "John! you need a minimum 10" ROUND tree small end to get a STRAIGHT 8" plank. He says but and 8 inch tree should give you an 8 inch plank.

you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.

You can get a theoretical 8 inch plank from a theoretical 8 inch tree; the tree just has to be a perfect cylinder and the plank has to be a 2-dimensional plane. Now if he wants a plank that actually exists in this world, with thickness, he's gonna have to cut somewhere besides exactly along the diameter, even if he's cutting a perfectly cylindrical log.

Maybe this will keep him busy so you can saw:
Smallest Enclosing Circle Problem

This might actually help him to see the problem, and let him do some calculating to see the solution:
Finding the Largest Inscribed Rectangle

[GAB]

Mr. Bandit: I agree with your statement - "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink".
However in this case I think the better way to express it might be; I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I'm also getting the impression that common sense is rapidly becoming a rareity.
GAB

[Kbeitz]

It's called condensed wood... You need to run it through a rolling press before you cut it...

[OlJarhead]

It's called condensed wood... You need to run it through a rolling press before you cut it...

or.......just add water?  :D

[derhntr]

Draw a 8 inch circle and a 8 inch square cut them out and set the square on top of the circle. Some folks just need a visual.

[Magicman]

The old "half again bigger" formula works pretty well and is easy to remember.  For an 8X8 you need a straight 12" top end log.   ;D

[OlJarhead]

I've been communicating with the local inspector for my next 'big' job.  I'll be milling the lumber for a 2500 square foot two story home and having it graded.  The customer wants the lumber 'full cut' rather than nominal and the inspector has been very responsive.  In his latest response he indicated that the grader could just stamp No2 and better (no need to stamp anything less unless the customer wants to use some of it for structural and the inspector approves it which he may well depending on the application):

All studs could be #2, but beams, rafters and joists may need to be a higher grade. When the plans are received, I check them against the code. If a #2 joist will make the span, I simply OK that portion of the plans. If for instance, the plans show #2 2x10 joists, and they are over-spanned, I will mark them. I usually also check a substitute. If there were only 8-10 joists that were over-spanned, I might suggest that they use #2 for most of the joists, but use select structural for the over-spanned ones. If all of the joists were over-spanned, I would suggest either a higher grade of 2x10 throughout, or just bump up to #2 2x12. I am attaching a span table that may be helpful. It gives spans for #1 and #2 in both DF/Larch, and S-P-F. I personally would not use anything lower than a #2 in a house for rafters or joists, but it will be up to the owner.

I found this interesting:  "I personally would not use anything lower than a #2 in a house for rafters or joists, but it will be up to the owner."

Next this portion also was good to share with the customer:

(Lower grades can be used for backing like in interior corners and interior wall intersections, and for curtain rods, stair handrails cabinets, blocking between truss tails etc. I don't care what is used for non-structural purposes, and don't care if it is even stamped.)

Finally he also sent over a span comparison for No2 Doug Fir in nominal vs full cut:  Nominal 2x10 (1.5 x 9.25) may span 12.91 feet vs full cut 2x10 can span 15.34 feet.  I'd always heard that full cut lumber was 25% stronger and this demonstrates and increase, if I did my math correctly, of 19% more span in the full cut joist than in a nominal one.

Gotta love that

[Bandmill Bandit]

Ok guys you got me rolling on the floor laughing again & then again. :D :D I did the 8"  circle and square drawing and I also did what MM suggests and did a 12" circle too. They are in my in my parts box now.

And GAB your suggestion is really good I will use that one I am sure.

Also this guy does NOT know how to check his own oil and never goes to a self serve gas pump. His oldest daughter is a good friend of my oldest daughter and she gets me to change her oil and such on her car. She hung around our place a fair bit in high  school and she learned a lot of stuff from my girls and I would teach her any thing she asked about. She's a pretty handy gal and doesn't mind getting dirty when she need to. She is quite a site in coveralls.   

When I did her oil change in March, her dad was with her and he stood in my shop and looked around the shop. Its a pretty well equipped shop for a small shop but nothing like some of you guys that have a lot more room.

When I pushed out from under the car from dropping the oil and filter he says to me, "you know how to use all these tools"? I said "well there wouldn't be much point to owning them if I didn't know how to use them now would there?"

There was no response.   

I will be laughing the rest of the  day I am sure  :D :D :D

[GAB]

Ok guys you got me rolling on the floor laughing again & then again. :D :D I did the 8"  circle and square drawing and I also did what MM suggests and did a 12" circle too. They are in my in my parts box now.

And GAB your suggestion is really good I will use that one I am sure.

I will be laughing the rest of the  day I am sure  :D :D :D

Talking about rolling and laughing that is what you did for me when you wrote about your novice off bearers, and again when you wrote; AND I QUOTE "I gave up. He is a psychology professor."  I sure am glad I don't drink coffee as I would still be cleaning up.
GAB

[ST Ranch]

I really like MM's rule of add 50% to desired nominal width to get required log size.  Many thanks for sharing this!
My rule has been multiply 0.7 times top diameter to get available cant size I can cut from the log, however, this new rule of MM's is a lot easier to calculate, and now will become part of my "hands free" tool box.

Interesting to observe how much of many folks [sawmiller's] time is spent teaching clients about lumber recovery and milling in order to sell our services.

Tom

[Jim_Rogers]

Ask him if he can read a tape measure?
If he can.
Than hand him a tape measure and a framing square.
Tell him to measure from 2" on one scale/leg to 8" on the other and see what he gets. this will tell you what diameter log you need.

IF he can't then show him how it's done.

Jim Rogers

[Bandmill Bandit]

If I gave him a square and a tape at the same time he would probably ask what the square was for.  BUT I will give him the 8"circle and square along with the 12" circle the next time I am out at his place. He called this morning to say that the wind knocked down about 35 or so trees on his property a few evening ago and he has the neighbor bucking and decking the logs.

He put the neighbor on the phone with me and the neighbor told me there are about 30 good sized white spruce saw log trees down that he is bucking at 10" small end averaging 70' stump to top. I guess I am gona be sawing timber framing material for a 16 X 20" cabin for him.     

[Bandmill Bandit]

I think there just might be a bit more rolling on the floor laughing after this post.

I set up late AM at John's Place today and he had rented (rent paid in lumber I saw) his neighbors bobcat for me to use for the job on site The logs are pulled onto the landing and he has a couple of young guys bucking and limbing.

Before I started to set the mill up I handed him the 8" square and circle and the 12 inch circle. He asked me "what are these for"? I said to help splain Logs to lumber to you.

He looked at them again and said these are geometric diagrams. I said go find a log that is close to the size of the circles and there were a few 12 footers about 50 feet from the mill.

He went over and palyed with the diagrams on several logs and then came and got my tape and played some more. You could see the wheels turning and some puzzlement as well. I was about ready to saw when he came back over to the mill and said " so logs are tapered and I didn't find a single one that is round either! I now understand the taper but how can you compensate for that once you have the log on a mill?"

The guy on the bobcat was just moving a couple of 16"ish logs so I waved him to bring them to the mill. I loaded the bigger of the 2 which was a bit oval shaped and then proceeded to explain the pith and how you level to that on a straight log and how you cut the edges off the oval so as to maximize the board width and BF that the log can give you. I also showed the kerf advantage picture from Woodmizer.

He was very attentive and was not afraid to ask what many would consider dumb questions.   

I cut the first slab flipped the log and cut second slab. I had them back on the out feed table and took one slab and flipped it end for end and laid one on top the other and then showed him the measurement of the combined slabs. They where with in a half inch stacked that way and that is when the light came on.

He says to me "now if you could glue those pieces together you'd have a 2X4 right"? I said well maybe even a 2X6 if you don't mind a bit of wane.

I continued the sawing process through that log But first I did the drawing on the end of the log facing me to show him what I would likely get out of the log cutting for 2X6 framing lumber. He asked about how many BF I said oh 220 to to 230 minimum and if we add the one inch side lumber you want for wind slabs for around your garden probably another 40 BF.

He watched every cut and asked about the different way the grain looked as I cut through the log. I told him I would explain that after I shut the mill off. I stacked by grade much as could.

When the log was done I spent a half hour answering more question and explaining stuff.

When that was done I asked him where he had been reading because most of his questions came from someone who had done some reading with out the ability to apply it in the field. He had found to the Alberta wood lot owners association web site and had spent a fair bit of time reading.

I encouraged him to join the association be cause he has about 30 acres of nice white spruce forest.

Then he says to me "so do you have a bachelors degree in this field?"

I said well if there was such a thing I guess I would probably qualify.

He said I have learned more in the last year about timber and forestry then I learned about psychology through my entire years in university. You really have to know your stuff to do a good job at what you do. I wont try to tell you how to do your job! To which I replied "and I wont try to be a psychologist cept maybe for the trees!"

He chuckled and said you have sure changed my view of environmentalism and ecological responsibility and how the 2 are pretty much diametrically opposed in todays world.

I said well if we would all accept the responsibility, environmentalism would die a natural death wouldn't it?

He said you know that is probably correct.

     

       

   
     

[grouch]

Bandmill Bandit, ya done GOOD! Man will be much happier now that he understands better. No telling what ripples will come from that, but you can be sure you made at least one of his days better.

8)

[OlJarhead]

Wood-Mizer gets some credit for this   The package they sent when I bought my new mill included a press release so I edited it for my business and sent it in to the local paper and this is the result!

I have to admit I was surprised when I saw the pic on the cover let alone how close to the front of the paper the article was!


Not a bad article either :D

[Magicman]

That is free advertising at it's best.  I have had a couple of those "front page" stories that really gained me some good exposure.   :P

[OlJarhead]

While waiting for one customer to get her logs decked and a 2nd to finish felling and decking their logs I had this customer meet me at the Field Day and request I mill this pile up for them.

I've got about 4 or 5 on the go but getting them on the calendar is always a challenge

I figure this one will take a couple days or less but I'll be camping onsite in a tent as there isn't a facility within 40 miles to stay at.  Will be hot but hoping for a good weekend all the same

[Kbeitz]

I would be lookin for a slide in pickup camper...

[OlJarhead]

Need to get a bigger truck first.  My plan is to sell the half ton and buy a one ton diesel in the next year or so, then I can stack a camper on top and tow the mill anywhere

Of course, the mill has to pay for itself first and then for the truck and camper