Milling For Hire

[BigTX]

Hello all.  I am brand new to the forum.  I currently serve in the military, but retirement is close, and we already own our retirement place in East Texas.  I have several projects of my own that need to be accomplished and seriously considering a bandsaw mill to assist with the project and then likely it will be a hobby mill since I like to woodwork.   

I would like for the machine to generate enough income to pay for itself, and obviously, if it could generate some side money, that would be great as well.  My quandary is what to get.  A small woodmizer or norwood is where I am looking, but I am not opposed to other brands, but they do not have some of the log loading assistance.  I will be in my 50s in retirement. Plus, if you go mobile to generate income, you need a log-loading aid and, thus, a bigger, more expensive machine.

The bigger machine I was looking at was the LT15 or Lumber Pro. Those are in the 12-15k range for a mobile trailer with a log loader. Quick math of $60 an hour for an 8-hour day is 210 daily divided into 15k, which yields about a month's worth of work to pay the machine off.  This seems very reasonable if your only desire is to buy the machine but allow it to work to pay itself off.  After that, the owner can decide to grow the business or make tool money here and there.

It seems like if it was this simple, everyone would own one.  Not going to lie I would like to generate a decent income with it but if I could just pay for it and then allow it to make side money and have it as a hobby saw I would be fine.     

Thoughts. 
Looking forward to learning here, and sorry for the long post, but some context was needed.     

[mudfarmer]

It seems like if it was this simple, everyone would own one.      

"Got it in one" as they say 

Welcome to the forum! You came to the right place and I will let the smart folks take it from here

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Search will be your friend to learn about your question. There are many members who have the information and many who are willing to help.
Shortcut, member Magicman and his posts (there are a few  ) would be the quickest way to learn how to mill for others and why, but also the commitment it will take and the "in" with the weatherman upstairs.

Lots of help here and lots and lots of reading. Check out the sawmill gathering next month and if you can swing it, go and join the fun that they will have at Customsawyer's place in GA. Many there can guide you along for good results.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=123599.msg2026198#msg2026198

To be blunt, few run a bandsaw and "make a living". But hard work and dedication can make it happen.

Enjoy the ride, and very welcome to have you aboard.

[Magicman]

Plus, if you go mobile to generate income, you need a log-loading aid and, thus, a bigger, more expensive machine.

The bigger machine I was looking at was the LT15 or Lumber Pro. Those are in the 12-15k range for a mobile trailer with a log loader.

Your sawmill sights are not set high enough if you are going to go mobile to generate income.  Hydraulic log handling options would be your friend and those don't have it.

I seriously doubt that your productivity would be in the $60 per hour range.

[Jeff]

Not nearly set high enough for those goals.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Welcome. 

   Jeff and the MagicMan nailed it - you need bigger equipment for what you are describing. I agree you need the Hydraulics especially if you want to mill for the public. They are going to want you to get in, set up quickly. mill their logs and get out because for the most part you are costing them time and money especially if you expect them to provide labor which is what many of us who mill mobile do.

    Your pricing seems on the low end especially when you move up to a hydraulic mill with better capacity. I suggest you get some experience cutting your own stock first or work with someone else off-bearing for a while till you can produce quality lumber. You only get one chance to make a first impression so you want it to be a good one.

    Go see every show or workshop you can. You will learn some new tip to make you faster and better and make the work easier at every one. Watch the work flow to find the little things that make the work easier and more efficient.

    Eat your grits daily and keep us posted on your progress. 

[TroyC]

Welcome!

You'll get good advice here, lots of good folks with a lot of experience.

I have a manual mill for hobby use. I think that's what an LT15 might be. I took on a small job once making 200 1x4x8' for a friend. That was a lot of hard work for what little I made. I  made enough to pay for blades, fuel, and maybe a little left over, but not much. I think if you go milling for others, at their place, you'll need more mill. Look for hydraulics.

Majicman is the 'go to man' for portable milling. Listen carefully when he comments

Thanks for your service and good luck on your retirement!

[fluidpowerpro]

I seriously doubt that your productivity would be in the $60 per hour range.

Yes, if your production isn't high enough your customer won't get enough lumber for $60.00. If you charge by the board foot, you don't make enough for your time. There will be the occasional request for specialty pieces, and you might get away with a manual mill for those, but I have found those don't come around too often.

[GAB]

BigTX:
To what the others have said I wish to add that I suggest you staying home and practice on your logs in your own man cave and start with very low grade material as you will produce some myty fine designer firewood.  I know I did.  This is reference to MM's first impression comment.
From what you have posted I would suggest an LT40 WIDE head with hydraulics and accusetII and the blade lube system, at a minimum.  As to HP, as much as you can afford.  Many LT40's have the Kohler 20 something HP gas engine.  I have the 34HP Cat diesel and the one time I sawed with a kohler engined LT40 I had to cut my sawing speed in roughly half.
I prefer to saw by the hour that way I do not make as many math errors tabulating and when the customer asks how long will it take I reply; how good is your help at off bearing the mill and keeping the logs ready to load.   One job I did I estimaed a day and a half.  When it was done it took 7 hours and I had never sawed that many logs in a day.  The blade broke out of the cant and the board was on its was out.
GAB

[Southside]

Quick math of $60 an hour for an 8-hour day is 210 daily divided into 15k, which yields about a month's worth of work to pay the machine off. 

That's gotta be Air Force math? Could be Army too I suppose.     Welcome to the Forum.  At 50 hydraulics are your friend, your PT belt won't save you here. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   One question I have is how you come up with the $60/hour rate?

   I don't know how other's established their hourly rate but I sawed a lot of lumber using a BF rate and I was pretty anal about keeping up with my sawing production rate. When I had sawed for a while and was comfortable with a "normal" production, I established an hourly rate for specialty type sawing based on "If I had been sawing reasonably decent logs how many BF would I have sawed and how much money would I have made?"

    I set up my hourly rate so I make a comparable rate so I am fair to my customer and don't lose out in the process. 

[Iwawoodwork]

You have been given some great info.  I have a mobile  mighty mite mill with hyd feed and  hyd raise and lower and it is still a slow process no way could I charge $60 an hr and have/keep customers.  Unless you have previously sawn quite a bit you will have a learning curve that could be many months with the type of mill you mentioned, they are slow and hard work. There will be a number of damaged blades around $30 each plus sharpening cost for dull ones. Without an auto set of some type cutting uniform boards quickly is not an option, it takes time to set up the log then time to adjust cut to get it close to uniform and time to handle the slabs and cut lumber   so unless you can afford a fully hydraulic with an auto set just consider hobby sawing until you can justify upgrading .

[BigTX]

Wow! On most forums, you wait days for just a couple of responses. 

Thanks for all the replies.  Southside is right I made a math error... Sorry, I am a knuckle dragger. 

I want to clarify that I am not really looking to make a living as it is for my own use, but I would like to make enough just to pay for the toy. I totally agree that I would need to practice at home before venturing out. That is why I did not put a timeline on it, like pay for it within 6 months, etc because I understand it will take time to garner some skills.  With all of that said, it sounds like I could pay for the machine but might need to be charge by the bf rather than the hour if I buy a smaller machine.  I understand the need for productivity that hydraulics brings, but that is a much higher price for a primarily hobby machine, not sure my budget can swing that, but I will definitely explore. I will do some searching on bf prices and just accept the fact that my hourly wage might be in the single digits, but I am willing to put in the time to just pay for the machine.  I was looking at the Norwood machines due to the fact that they allow for growth over time, and as age catches up with me, even as a hobby, hydraulics will likely be needed. I guess my biggest fear is that there is not a market for that type of work in the area, and I am struggling with how to do market research.  Obviously, if there is a lot of demand, then the higher price machine is no brainer.

I have some time to make a decision given that I am still serving, but I am a planner and like to get out in front of things....plus I have to convince my wife that I need another toy. I am open to any other comments... you can not learn if you do not ask then listen.         

[BigTX]

One question I have is how you come up with the $60/hour rate?

   I don't know how other's established their hourly rate but I sawed a lot of lumber using a BF rate and I was pretty anal about keeping up with my sawing production rate. When I had sawed for a while and was comfortable with a "normal" production, I established an hourly rate for specialty type sawing based on "If I had been sawing reasonably decent logs how many BF would I have sawed and how much money would I have made?"

WV -- I pulled the hourly rate from some of the market quotes in my area and from some other posts I saw on forums.  Good points have been made here about productivity, and without it, the customer is paying more per bf than is reasonable.  That alone could kill future business.  Like I mentioned in my last post, I am looking for ways to pay for the machine, and if a business grows out of that, then I would follow; if not, then my hobby machine paid for itself or at least contributed to some of the cost.   

    I set up my hourly rate so I make a comparable rate so I am fair to my customer and don't lose out in the process.

[TimW]

Woodmizer has a dealer in Kirbyville.  Give Jay a holler.

[longtime lurker]

You have been given some great info.  I have a mobile  mighty mite mill with hyd feed and  hyd raise and lower and it is still a slow process no way could I charge $60 an hr and have/keep customers.  

Mighty mite bandmill not a twinsaw right? 
BIG difference in capacity there.

[caveman]

I'll throw out something else to consider.  Instead of purchasing a new manual mill, there is the option to buy a considerably more productive used mill.  We bought a new WM lt-28 in 2010 or 11 and used it for several years.  It was a great mill with not a lot to go wrong, being all manual, except for the power feed.

Fast forward to 2019.  We bought an Lt-50 off of a FF member in the for sale section.  It was a much more capable mill than the LT-28 (which is very similar to an LT-15).  Both produce very good lumber, but after learning to drive the LT-50, it is able to do so much quicker with less physical exertion.  Both of the mills were able to produce plenty of lumber for our personal uses and for us to pay ourselves back for the purchase price of the mills and related equipment.  Even at a cost of nearly 4x the cost of the new Lt-28, we were able to pay ourselves back much quicker with the LT-50.  Our LT-50 has never been used by us to mobile saw.

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Forestry Forum.  Regardless of what you get, there will be a learning curve.  You will likely produce some lumber that, as it dries, loses it apparent quality and usefulness.  The knowledge is here to help you get whatever mill you end up with to turn logs into the best lumber possible as well as keeping your machine in top working order.

[scsmith42]

If I were you, I'd consider buying a used mill, such as an LT15, 28 or Norwood.  Use it around your place and see if this is something that you want to pursue more seriously as a side gig, and if there is business demand in your area for these services.

If the answer is "yes", then consider upgrading to a portable, hydraulic mill.  If the answer is "no", then your initial cost of acquisition for your used mill will be fairly low.

Be advised though - there is a lot more to running a sawmill than just acquiring a mill.  You'll need a way to handle logs and lumber stacks.  Many folks start off with farm tractors and then move on to something better suited for heavy logs and lumber stacks such as a forklift, skid steer with grapple rake and fork attachments, or a telehandler.

Then you'll need a place to store the stacked and stickered lumber.  Usually some type of drying means - such as a solar, DH or iDry kiln follows.  It can be a very slippery slope.

If you become serious about doing it as a business, I cannot stress enough the importance of log loading, turning, clamping, toe board, board drag back hydraulics / automation on the sawmill.  The productivity increase is a quantum leap over an all manual sawmill.

[WV Sawmiller]

   How much time are you going to want/be able to dedicate to milling? That should be one of your early questions you answer.

   Some of the equipment, space, and drying issues listed above may not apply if you are doing mobile sawing off-site for others so your business planning needs to include such factors.

   I, and some others here, just do mobile sawing. I mostly trailer my mill to the customer's site and saw his logs there using his help and whatever equipment he has available. Everything I need fits in the back of my pick up truck and the mill tows behind.

 I don't dry lumber. I custom cut and sell a little green/partially air dried, rough lumber from trees/logs harvested or salvaged off my property. 

   If you want to provide all labor, drying, equipment to handle logs and lumber, finishing services you can make more money but you are going to have to shell out a lot more time and money to get set up and operate. Can you or do you want to do so?

[SawyerTed]

Longevity should be a consideration.

How long will you be able to do the work around a manual mill?   Will you be able to work lmore years with a hydraulic mill?   

[fluidpowerpro]

I would lean towards an entry level manual mill at first. You will learn a lot using that in the beginning. If you do generate some revenue with it consider it a bonus. Note that I say revenue, not profit,  because with a manual mill you won't be able to charge much for your labor. 
By starting with a low end mill you will find out how much you enjoy milling. If you don't enjoy it then your going to work every day and your no longer retired. 
If you enjoy it, you can always sell the smaller mill and spend more on a bigger one. You will also have gained some experience sawing so if you do start doing more outside work you can do it with some experience under your belt.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yeah but remember - it is a lot more fun sawing with a hydraulic mill with a decent electronic setworks  so what might not be fun sawing with a manual mill would be a blast with hydraulics.

    I'd strongly suggest you look into off-bearing for a local sawyer or two if possible. 

    I would have quit years ago if I'd bought a manual mill but enjoy sawing with the one my wife and friends talked me into getting.

[fluidpowerpro]

Good point. 

[thecfarm]

Where are your logs coming from to saw?
I have a manual mill and land to cut my logs off from.
A manual mill is all work. And I do mean work. I just saw for myself. But a manual mill is slow. 
I have more then paid for the mill with what I have built. 
Those logs are hard to turn by hand. 
I have never sawed all day. I cut the tree down, saw the lumber up and then I build. All within hours of starting the chainsaw.

[Cedarman]

Make a full blown business plan.
Look at what all is in a business plan.
You can make one for as many different options as you can think of.
You are right to plan and research, but a business plan is a road map to achieving your goals.
Just being for hobby, one goal.
Going mobile, another goal.
How deep do you want to get into sawing, into woodworking, building you own buildings, etc.
A good business plan for each option will help you decide. It will help you focus on those areas of this forum that will make things clearer.
Even good business plans are subject to major changes as you get going.
That can be a good thing as you learn as you go.
Been doing this for 41 years.  Never dreamed I would still be working every day when I bought an LT30 manual in 83. Lots have changed since.  Still love the action.