Finding saw logs... any pointers?

[moodnacreek]

Those are homeowner prices. People who have no equipment, no experience or skill set to make a board. They need one or two boards to make a book shelf.
Or maybe a contractor that needs some trim pieces real quick.

No serious, large scale projects are coming from those racks. Those prices have always been high like that.

Finished to softwood size like that goes against old hard wood traditions like random with. A traditional grade hardwood board, unsurfaced, would be over an inch  thick and just over called width. I can't bring myself to edge fas walnut ,cherry, oak etc to stock pine widths sometimes burning 1 1/2" strips [of clear]. But that's what people want. The more waste the better.

[Cornerstone]

   Today, just before I was headed out to go see the acre and a half piece of property that I was offered any tree I wanted, the phone rang. This time it was a guy who was interested in a trade. He has a 400 acre piece of property that is a working ranch. He needs about another dozen 10' posts and a few larger beams to have all the wood he needs to complete a timber frame house build that he has been stockpiling materials for.

 My first stop was only 15 minutes from the house. It has easy access and I can bring my skid steer and grapple to haul out all that I want. She didn't even want me to clean up after I take what I want. Her place seemed to only have hackberry trees with an average dbh of approximately 18-20" and maybe 1 or 2 slightly smaller live oaks. Being new at this I'm still not sure what species are worth messing with and what are junk.  As I was leaving her place I almost considered not making the hour and twenty minute ride to go to the next place, but only briefly. lol

 I made the trip out to the ranch and we walked through one particular field that is to be cleared of all trees, I would estimate 8 acres. Every one of them was a post oak, with an average dbh of 26". There were several easily over 30". I would estimate a total of 30 mature 50+ ft. tall post oaks free for the taking. Well, if you call the labor of felling 30 large trees "free". We haven't worked out the details and specifics yet but we will before any work starts. If I were to make a guess how it will go I think he will be happy with him getting the rest of the cut green lumber he needs in trade for me taking more than half of the logs home with me to cut at my leisure. I think the work on my end will be one full day using my skid steer with brush cutter to clear out around the trees to make the work much easier, and a full week working with him felling and delimbing the +/-30 trees. Then sawing probably 10 logs for him free of charge. This guy also does not want anything cleaned up, not even pushed into a burn pile.

 What have I gotten myself into here guys? To me, at the moment I think I've hit the wood jackpot! I must admit, I've had these gut feelings before and afterward looked back in hindsight and thought to myself I must have been blind. That's not the norm though, usually I'm pretty good at seeing the whole picture, and calculating the cost beforehand. I would love to hear what you fellas with experience think about this deal, does it seem like a good deal for both of us or does it favor one party in particular?

 These are a couple of pictures of the hackberry trees at the first ladies place. I totally forgot to take pics of the big post oaks at the second place this trip. If I'm fortunate enough to get this arrangement made, you can count on those pictures to come.



 



 

 Like the good book says...    "Ask and you will receive"  

[moodnacreek]

This is the U.S.A. and we have the resources .

[Ljohnsaw]

Sounds like you got a couple good sources of wood.  I don't have hackberry trees out here so I can't comment on the sutability or "fun" in cutting that wood.  The few pictures you posted they look more like character wood candidates than lumber.  I would lean toward making some cool slabs from them.  Maybe the 2nd or 3rd logs look better for lumber?

You guys back east have some great oaks to cut.  Here is a straight one out here:


or this...

 

I will say that I once busted my hump pulling out some ponderosa logs from a messy clear cut home owners property, hauled 30 miles up nearly 4,000' elevation, wearing out my truck and body before I got smart.  Much easier to have a truck deliver it!

 

 

 

This was four trips.  Most cut good.  I think one or two got kicked.  Looking back through my photos, I generated a lot of 5x9 loft joists.  Of the 19 or 20 I cut, I was only able to savage 9 to use on my frame.  I learned that if there is any crook in the tree, it will either bite you when you saw or after it drys.  YMMV

[Brad_bb]

My reaction.... you want to be a sawyer, not a logger right?  Like anything, logging is a specialization to be efficient at it.  From what I gather, you're not.  Am I right?  You estimated 8 days of work to brush and cut.  I think you are off by a factor of 3.  

To cut 10 logs form him- I have not seen your home built sawmill, is it on par with woodmizer's LT15?  I'll assume that (cause that's what I have).  To cut those 10 logs of that size is going to take me 5-8 days.  I have to manually turn and clamp logs and I assume you do as well.  To me this is a reasonable estimate especially when you include cleanup.  It is part of the process.

So that's 4-5 weeks hard labor and equipment, in exchange for 20 logs 26" DBH.  Yes you may get some second logs and some good large branches if you have a use like I do, but still....

If you have 12' butt logs, what is the dia on the small end.  Use that for calculation.  Let's assume 3" taper.  So 23" dia x 12 ft long -271BF

271x 20 logs - 5420 BF.  If I assume $50/hr for logging and milling (Is this low for logging?  I don't know, but even for manual milling It should probably be $65 min or more).

Anyhow, that would mean $50x40hrsx5weeks- $10,000

So $10,000/5420BF= $1.84 per BF log cost.

I did not include loading and hauling time in this.  If you have just a dually with trailer, that's going to take many trips chaining down and unchaining.  Do you have loading/unloading equipment on each end?

To me that's a lot.  I personally wouldn't do it.  

He 1. Wants his trees cut down 2. Want you to stage and haul all of the logs away 3. Wants rough sawn beams and posts cut for his own use 4. Wants you to deliver his cut wood.  He'd be getting all that without spending any money. 
You 1. Get 20 logs and maybe some seconds.

I'd advise him to hire a logger/cutter to drop and limb.  You could mark any large branches or upper wood you want to save to he cuts it where you want.  

Then you are doing the hauling and the milling.  Which is going to be about a week and a half to two weeks all together.  Plus you'd have to spend your fuel, equipment hauling and running time.  That's plenty in exchange for the 20 good logs(assuming) plus any bonus wood.  Even at this rate, you're not making out anything special.  I'd rather do this in exchange for milling 5 logs for him.

There's a lot of variables here.  I'd rather have oak than hackberry for sure. I'm only going to do this kind of work for Walnut, period.  I don't want to be a logger.  I don't have insurance, the skills, the proper equipment, or the  crew with training to do it safely and efficiently.  I doubt you do either.  I want logs already on the ground that I can buy.  I prefer not to haul unless it's something I really want. And most of the time they don't have a way to load on the other end so you have to solve that.  This is just how I think and approach it.  Ya'll feel free to criticize my assessment.  I don't know how much log prices have changed in the last year.  I haven't been buying in the last year.

[Brad_bb]

And don't forget the FF definition of a log.  Logs roll, trees do not.  No thumbs on a log.

[WDH]

Why do you think those trees pictured are hackberry?

[Cornerstone]

And don't forget the FF definition of a log.  Logs roll, trees do not.  No thumbs on a log.

Thank you for the level of consideration you gave on this Brad_bb. You went above and beyond here. On most all of your assumptions you made are correct. My mill is very close in specs to the LT15 in it's capabilities, but mine has a 22 hp engine.

[Cornerstone]

Why do you think those trees pictured are hackberry?

I'm glad you asked. I looked it up on the web by comparing leaf designs, and didn't have a ton of confidence in my findings. I thought hackberry's had a less consistent bark pattern. This leaf was on 95% of all the trees there.


 

[Cornerstone]

*Sounds like you got a couple good sources of wood. 


*The few pictures you posted they look more like character wood candidates than lumber.  I would lean toward making some cool slabs from them.


*I learned that if there is any crook in the tree, it will either bite you when you saw or after it dries. 

Thanks for your thoughts John.
*It sure seems like it to me. 
*This is exactly what I am thinking as well. It blows me away when I see how much live edge slabs sell for. 
*What do you men by crook specifically? I imagine the trunk would have a single bend it making it lean to the side. Am I right?

[WV Sawmiller]

  Interesting results so far. I can't on the hackberry as not a common sawable species here for me. Sawing on halves like the cedar can work out if you need the cedar. I have sawed on shares but now make a practice of them bringing me the logs as I found I was putting in too much time and miles for the effort and only then if it is s species I have a market or need for.

   The rancher sounds like it could be a good deal. From your description he sounds like a pretty straight up dude and seems like he would benefit from your efforts and is not trying to gouge you. I hope I am reading the thread right. I would continue to tentatively pursue this option but be careful with the time and investment put out till I was sure it was worth it.

   In all cases I'd be sure I had a need or market for the wood. I see nothing wrong with occasionally sawing a new species or style of cut for the experience.

   

[Ron Wenrich]

You'll have to sharpen up your dendrology skills.  I'm not familiar with southern species, but I believe you're looking at elm.  I've sawn very few elms, since there are very few in the area.  Low volume means low demand.  Hackberry has a gray bark.  The wood is pretty bland with little grain pattern.  We sawed them into RR ties and pallet lumber.  

I think you might want to step back and take a look at a few things.  If you don't have a business plan, now might be the time.  Maybe you're looking more at a hobby plan.

First thing you're going to have to figure out is what you're planning on doing with the lumber.  If its for self use or part of your business, you'll need to know how much, what kind of quality and what species.  If you're looking at selling, the same will be needed.  You'll also have to figure out what you'll do with your waste.  You will have slabs and sawdust, but you won't be cutting high quality lumber in every log or even throughout a log.  You will have low grade that has to be considered into your calculations.

The next thing you need to know is the your production capacity.  I'm not too familiar with band mills, but I do know if you don't have any hydraulics, you're in for a ton of work.  Rule of thumb for profitability is 1 Mbf/manday.  Mbf=1,000 bf.  A manday is usually considered to be 8 hrs.  If you're a 1 man show, you'll have to be able to saw, move the lumber and logs, clean up the sawdust, and dispose of slabs.  Anything you do to lessen those side things often end up in an expense.  Sharpening blades can either be done on site or sent out. 

Right now you're trying to source logs.  Every mill has this problem.  Those with lots of experience have tried and true methods that work for them.  If people are willing to give you logs, that may be an indication that they don't have much value.  If its a small amount, that could be a plus, since loggers need a minimum of a truckload to even get a sniff of interest.  As Brad points out free ain't free.

Figure out how many logs you'll need to satisfy your needs for a month.  Finding a logger or a mill that will sell you a couple Mbf of logs is probably your best source for right now.  If you want to go the urban route, you can get some logs, but be selective.  In my area, you run into a bunch of sycamore, pin oak, and silver maple.  You might find some contractors that have cleared lots for home building. 

I think you need to practice some sawing before you get into logging.  Get to know your capacity before you get too involved in getting a ton of logs.  Learn what your markets are and figure out what size logs you want.  Logs shorter than 8' are okay to practice on, but you'll be hard pressed to sell lumber shorter than 8'.   Short logs are production killers.

[moodnacreek]

Even 8 footers in hardwood and dry weather can wind up 6 footers.

[WDH]

Ron is spot on.  The trees are elm, not hackberry.  Elm is spiral grain and difficult to dry flat if flatsawn.  Very bad to warp and twist.  Quartersawing yields the best quality lumber, but you cannot quartersaw small logs.  I like to have 20" on the small end to be a candidate for quartersawing. 

[Cornerstone]

You'll have to sharpen up your dendrology skills.  I'm not familiar with southern species, but I believe you're looking at elm.  I've sawn very few elms, since there are very few in the area.  Low volume means low demand.  Hackberry has a gray bark.  The wood is pretty bland with little grain pattern.  We sawed them into RR ties and pallet lumber.  

I think you might want to step back and take a look at a few things.  If you don't have a business plan, now might be the time.  Maybe you're looking more at a hobby plan.

First thing you're going to have to figure out is what you're planning on doing with the lumber.  If its for self use or part of your business, you'll need to know how much, what kind of quality and what species.  If you're looking at selling, the same will be needed.  You'll also have to figure out what you'll do with your waste.  You will have slabs and sawdust, but you won't be cutting high quality lumber in every log or even throughout a log.  You will have low grade that has to be considered into your calculations.

The next thing you need to know is the your production capacity.  I'm not too familiar with band mills, but I do know if you don't have any hydraulics, you're in for a ton of work.  Rule of thumb for profitability is 1 Mbf/manday.  Mbf=1,000 bf.  A manday is usually considered to be 8 hrs.  If you're a 1 man show, you'll have to be able to saw, move the lumber and logs, clean up the sawdust, and dispose of slabs.  Anything you do to lessen those side things often end up in an expense.  Sharpening blades can either be done on site or sent out.  

Right now you're trying to source logs.  Every mill has this problem.  Those with lots of experience have tried and true methods that work for them.  If people are willing to give you logs, that may be an indication that they don't have much value.  If its a small amount, that could be a plus, since loggers need a minimum of a truckload to even get a sniff of interest.  As Brad points out free ain't free.

Figure out how many logs you'll need to satisfy your needs for a month.  Finding a logger or a mill that will sell you a couple Mbf of logs is probably your best source for right now.  If you want to go the urban route, you can get some logs, but be selective.  In my area, you run into a bunch of sycamore, pin oak, and silver maple.  You might find some contractors that have cleared lots for home building.  

I think you need to practice some sawing before you get into logging.  Get to know your capacity before you get too involved in getting a ton of logs.  Learn what your markets are and figure out what size logs you want.  Logs shorter than 8' are okay to practice on, but you'll be hard pressed to sell lumber shorter than 8'.   Short logs are production killers.

I really appreciate the guidance Ron. Yes, I'm not even a hobby sawyer since I still haven't cut a single board on my own mill yet. Just a few more hours work till I'm ready to go. I'll most likely remain a hobby sawyer, selling live edge slabs on Marketplace as demand permits. I do have a lot of need for lumber over time, but that's not a pressing issue.

Addressing some of your comments, In regard to waste I have a 15'x30'x10' deep burn pit and the heavy equipment (Case backhoe, 2 ton dump truck and skid steer) to make relatively quick work of the waste.

The leaf I posted does have the same general shape as the elms on my property, with the exception of size. At my place they max out at 1 inch, and as you can see in the photo posted it's closer to 4 inches. One thing is definite, my current dendrology skills are lousy at best. lol
With the load of logs I've already purchased from an east Texas sawmill I've got plenty of practice work lined up, so I'll do my best to pipe down and get some experience now. For the past 2.5 months I've solely been a fabricator/welder building the mill. I'm pretty excited to finally put it to use.

Thank you all of you gentlemen very much for sharing your wisdom. You're helping me speed up the mandatory learning curve that comes with every new adventure.

[barbender]

Most if the time I spent chasing free logs, or cut em and you can have em type of logs ended up being a waste of time. I guess I had more energy back then😁 The logs I make money on are the ones I bought from loggers. Even though they seem expensive, buying exactly the logs you need saves you from wasting a ton of time.

I would suggest reaching out to a logging outfit. Tell them what you're looking for, and given your distance from the loggers, I'd offer to pay for the wood up front. I would go over and meet them when they load it to make sure you're getting what you asked for, and have a big envelope of green to pay for it right there. The reason is that no one is going to risk sending a load that far and not get paid for it. The trucking costs are going to be huge for a haul of that distance. Once you get someone to bite, then you can start forming a relationship with that logger. If they can get paid, get in and out, basically make money with no drama, they will likely continue to bring you wood.

My boss (I work for a logger) doesn't like to mess around at all, but we have a mill 2.5 hours away we will bring wood to. It's an Amish mill that buys good grade hardwood logs from us. Now, we shove load after load of hardwood logs into the local pallet mills, and we don't have any close grade mills. I cringe at the beautiful hardwood logs that go to the pallet mill. But the Amish pay enough to make it worth our while to sort the good logs (probably almost twice the $$) so when they call looking for logs, we try to supply them. We would do the same for you if you were in our area, if you paid upfront.

[Cornerstone]

Mist if the time I spent chasing free logs, or cut em and you can have em type of logs ended up being a waste of time. I guess I had more energy back then😁 The logs I make money on are the ones I bought from loggers. Even though they seem expensive, buying exactly the logs you need saves you from wasting a ton of time.

I would suggest reaching out to a logging outfit. Tell them what you're looking for, and given your distance from the loggers, I'd offer to pay for the wood up front. I would go over and meet them when they load it to make sure you're getting what you asked for, and have a big envelope of green to pay for it right there. The reason is that no one is going to risk sending a load that far and not get paid for it. The trucking costs are going to be huge for a haul of that distance. Once you get someone to bite, then you can start forming a relationship with that logger. If they can get paid, get in and out, basically make money with no drama, they will likely continue to bring you wood.

My boss (I work for a logger) doesn't like to mess around at all, but we have a mill 2.5 hours away we will bring wood to. It's an Amish mill that buys good grade hardwood logs from us. Now, we shove load after load of hardwood logs into the local pallet mills, and we don't have any close grade mills. I cringe at the beautiful hardwood logs that go to the pallet mill. But the Amish pay enough to make it worth our while to sort the good logs (probably almost twice the $$) so when they call looking for logs, we try to supply them. We would do the same for you if you were in our area, if you paid upfront.

With the sheer amount of nutburgers these days pre paying, preferably in cash, is a must in a new business relationship... I agree 100%. Your post reminded me of a contact I had forgotten about, a business acquaintance who has several friends who are loggers. He said he would put me in touch with them when I was ready. 
Thanks barbender!

[Cornerstone]

I googled arborists in my area and low and behold, I've got a new connection. The company is family owned, only a couple miles away and very willing to help a brother out. The owner and I spoke for a while today. He said he has been considering buying a sawmill for obvious reasons, and asked me what the throat width was on my mill. He's got a 20' over 40" dbh pecan log that he's been wanting to be slabbed out for over a year.  Unfortunately I can't help him out since he wants to keep it live edge and I can only go upwards of 32". They are a busy company with crews taking down long logs daily. His main concern was doing zero damage to customers lawns, understandably. We then discussed my equipment and capabilities. They are using those fancy plastic matts that keep ruts from forming in the grass, and said I would be able to use them with my equipment. Apparently there is a tree disease going around and a lot of the area parks are loosing many big trees to it. I do believe this will be an excellent source for inexpensive and or free wood. I'm thinking my next project will be a log arch for my trailer like Matt Creamora built.

[Ljohnsaw]

He's got a 20' over 40" dbh pecan log

  Don't do it!

[Cornerstone]

Probably against better judgement, I took a trip out to the ranch, and brought equipment with me to get started. I had some of the details of the the story wrong earlier in the thread, but nothing that really changes the outcome. Turns out the ranch is several thousand acres, not 400 acres. Also, it's not 30-40 trees, it's 70... so far. We worked a 60/40 split on any logs we harvest. I get 60% and he gets 40%. He gave me a cut list of 21 various beams and posts I've agreed to mill for him as well. About half of them are 8"x8"x10' and the others are mostly 6"x12" anywhere from 10' to 17' long. The deal seemed like a no brainer to me, especially since his 30 year old son who has good experience felling trees will be helping me. It will be a learning experience if nothing else. I'll keep a record of my expenses to figure out what these logs end up costing me. Here are a few pictures of the place.

This is how it looked upon arrival, then I got to work cutting all the brush under the trees to allow the felling to go much quicker.


 

It took about 8 hours to clear under 70 trees.


 


If you look closely, you can see my new chainsaw. It has a 20" bar, if that helps you gauge the size of the post oak. This tree is probably a little bit larger than the average DBH. I think it turned out to be 28" inside the bark.


 


This was the first tree I cut down. I think it was a 23 incher. What a cool sound it makes when it starts to go. Once I notice the tree starting to lean, I shut the saw off and wait for the loud POP! as the last few fibers of the tree break. I can feel it in my feet when it does that. It's quite the visceral feeling when that big honker crashes to the ground. I was so excited I yelled out "TIMMMBERRRR!!!" even though there was no one near me for miles away. :D


 


I briefly tried to count the rings but decided to get a cleaner cut and try it again. Any one care to guess the age? : I think this one is over 85 years old.


 

That's 3 down, only 67 more to go. ;D ;D 8) ;D ;D


 


This one had a big ol' hole in the center. No big beams coming from this one I guess.


 



I was asked to leave a decent sized stump so a dozer will not have too much trouble removing them, otherwise I would have taken them much lower. It's all good with me since my mill can only handle a 17' log anyways. So far I have 2.5 days of work involved.

When do I need to Anchorseal the ends of the logs? Let me guess... the sooner the better?

[WV Sawmiller]

   That hole in the tree is for him to run his wiring through  when you cut the beam from it. ;)

  Nice post. I'm waiting to see what the lumber looks like.

[Cornerstone]

Here are the some of first of the post oak logs that I got delimbed and moved to a loading area. I had help on my third day out there.



 




 

Then, I got a call from my tree service guy this afternoon telling me of a couple of good sized pecan crotch's from a local city park free for the taking if I wanted. I'd bet a donut it's got metal in it, so I'll use a blade that's already borderline toast. I wasn't too busy at the moment, so I headed over with the skid steer and loaded them up on the front of the trailer.



 

These are the large ends


 



 

After I get all these logs to the house I need to get busy sawing!

[WDH]

 

[Cornerstone]

I though I'd show some of the post oak I've been harvesting and milling. Sorry for the neck cramp.



 




 




 

I've got 6 days of work involved so far, I think another 2-3 and the logging part will be done. I brought 2 logs home so far and opened this one up to get a glimpse of the grain. I was pleasantly surprised on the amount of character the wood has. The first few cuts I made were all 6/4 boards. I see the next couple of mods needed are a log turner and some sort of "set works"? Not sure what that exactly means but I mean I need a way to cut the same thickness with consistency. I've seen a few different ways to tackle that, but really need to stare at my mill and just figure it out.

[Cornerstone]

I cut a few more slabs off this log. The grain pattern seems very colorful to my unexperienced eye. Is this common for post oak?