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frame to foundation

Started by laffs, March 16, 2016, 10:17:35 PM

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laffs

I havent posted anything in a long while, so
i hope im doing this right. Has anyone got pictures or illistrations on connecting the timber frame to the foundation ? Using 5"sips. 8"poured concrete wall, or am I going to need to pour a thicker wall ?
Also any thoughts on a stick wall on the outside of the frame and spray foamed from the outside then sheathed.
thanks in advance
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

Brian_Weekley

I would think building the stick built wall on the inside of the SIPs would be more convienent for running wires, plumbing, or attaching cabinets to.  Also, since the SIPs are already made of foam, using additional spray foam to fill the stick built portion of the wall is an unnecessary expense instead of using something like cellulose.
e aho laula

witterbound

I just buried/imbedded Simpson straps into my concrete walls, then nailed the straps to the outside of my posts.  For posts sitting on my concret floor, I used Simpson 8 inch base plates.  I didn't use sips, but instead built a stud wall outside my frame, and used spray foam insulation.  Very pleased with the results.  Some of my posts are not fully supported on my concrete walls.  I just built up supports using 2x material.   Suppose you could also just make the wall a little wider where the posts are going to set.  Waste of comcrete to make all the walls wider just to support a post, it seems to me.

laffs

Brian I meant use the stick built instead of sips. sheath the frame first, then stick build outside of that. This would allow you to wire any outside walls then spray foam and sheath. Not sure what effect u v rays have on spray foam or cost compared to sips ?

Witterbound  if you have an 8" concrete foundation wall you would have 3" of post to sit on the plate , just wondering if thats enough?

thanks for the replies
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

JimXJ2000

I used stick built walls outside of my frame followed by a layer of 3 inch polyiso sheets.   The insulation sheets were a cheap find on craigslist.  I wanted to be able to see the full depth of all the posts on the inside.  I had looked at SIPs but was advised against them since I was reusing an old barn frame.  The SIPs potentially would have needed a lot of shimming to match the variations in the frame. 

In the end I think the frame would have been straight enough for SIPs but using the stick walls was cheaper for me, but took more of my time. 

I attached the posts to the 8inch poured concrete foundation with Simpson straps and hilti style bolts into the concrete and lag bolts into the posts.  I then built an 8 inch wide "shelf" around the rim joists of the stick framed first floor deck.  The "shelf" would hold a 2X4 stud wall - for wiring, fiberglass insulation and hanging dry wall. The 2X4 wall as padded with strapping off the posts to allow the drywall to slip behind the posts a little. The outside of the 2x4 wall was sheathed with OSB.  This might not be needed by my frame was somewhat lightly braced so the OSB on the walls added a bit of stiffness.  Next was a layer of tar paper (might not have been needed) and the poly iso sheets.  There were then covered with ZIP sheathing that was screwed through the poly iso into the 2X4 wall and where possible the timber frame.  Outside of that was a double layer of strapping to give an air space on the back side of old barn siding.  Windows were framed into the 2x4 wall with 2x10s to make a box in the poly iso and sheathing.

Overall it was time consuming (DIY project).  I used a manlift to lift "modular" wall sections up.  But it did make things like changing a window location easy.  Wiring and drywall were the same as a stick frame house. 

I did look into spray foaming from either the outside or the inside of the 2X4 wall.  Outside wasn't really an option since I needed the walls sheathed before wiring and couldn't do wiring after spray foam.  From in the inside it would have been a lot to protect the wood from overspray.   And once I had the 3 inches of poly iso on the outside just adding fiberglass seemed reasonable over the spray foam in the 2X4 wall. 

We aren't really done the project yet but I am very pleased with the results for the walls. 




 



 

S.Hyland

Typically your major bearing would want to be from your timber to foundation. The SIPS, if not load bearing can partially overhang the foundation in many cases. If you do want the SIPS flush to the exterior of the foundation then you will want to create a thickened support under the posts to help transmit all the load of the post onto the foundation. This does not have to be the whole wall, just at the post locations. I have also used wood posts bolted into inside of the foundation wall to help pick up this load, Although your footer needs to be appropriately sized since you are creating somewhat of a point load here.  3" is not enough bearing, since your timber frame is transmitting the major loads of the house.
Another alternative if using ICF is a brickledge detail, which can give the bearing you need.
"It may be that when we no longer know which way to go that we have come to our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings."
― Wendell Berry

witterbound

I used 2x8s built up inside my concrete wall to support the part of the post that was hanging off the concrete wall.  I, in essence, built a regular stick frame house around my frame.  Post, gap for Sheetrock, 2x4 (filled with spray foam insulation), sheathing, tyvek, siding.

laffs

Thanks for the replies
I wasnt sure about the ledge but had thought of it.
Just brain storming right now .
i also considered a frame on the inside of the foundation from the slab up. stick build on the foundation wall, mostly for the purpose of wiring .(bank style barn/house) 28x40
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

vtframer

I also plan to use the brick ledge detail with stud frame on the outside (the post is not shown for clarity).  Additionally I'm planning on 2x3 furring strips on the outside (preventing thermal bridging) then 1x vertical board as the sheathing. 

I agree, the posts need to be directly above the wall, the only downside to the brick ledge is the weird profile at the foundation.  We plan to have deck most of the way around the house so it won't be so visible.


frwinks

if you can line it up all, here is a detail that made both my Peng and building inspector happy ;)

what made them even more impressed was the roof/wall connection detail ;D

vtframer

very nice!  I really like the roof detail

how thick is your foundation?  it looks like it's 5"?

JimXJ2000

The sketches help explain.  Here is what I did.

The foundation to post metal straps are not shown.  They run under the "shelf". 

If you do something similar, add the straps before building the shelf.   It is harder the other way around.

The pressure treated shelf was all glued, nailed and screwed together.  Having the 2X4 stud wall drop below the first floor level made wiring very easy, but didn't give a nice bottom plate for dry wall and trim.

Here is 

  my final wall cross section. 

frwinks

Quote from: vtframer on March 18, 2016, 09:19:02 AM
very nice!  I really like the roof detail

how thick is your foundation?  it looks like it's 5"?

oh yes, it's the newest, greenest, eco-block.....patent pending ;D

Brad_bb

Quote from: laffs on March 16, 2016, 10:17:35 PM
I havent posted anything in a long while, so
i hope im doing this right. Has anyone got pictures or illistrations on connecting the timber frame to the foundation ? Using 5"sips. 8"poured concrete wall, or am I going to need to pour a thicker wall ?
Also any thoughts on a stick wall on the outside of the frame and spray foamed from the outside then sheathed.
thanks in advance

Just did a timberframe.  Engineer specified simpson straps on outside posts, but if we had it to do again, we'd use timberlinx everywhere.  The reason is that the simpson straps are wet set and it's very difficult to get their position correct, especially if the concrete guy is setting them.  They do bend and you'd end up bending some flat, setting your post and then bending it up the post.  Not a preferred method.  With timberlinx, you have a finished foundation wall, lay out your frame with red snapped chalk lines and drill and epoxy the timberlinx in place.  Much more accurate positioning. 

When you're looking at your wall thickness, I'm assuming you have piers or ...what's the word?  sections that stick out from the wall for the posts to sit on.  With your wall you need to take into account the framed wall, any fur out, siding, and ledge for stone or brick.  We nailed 3/4 inch spacers to the back side of the outside posts to create a 3/4 space between the posts and framed wall.  This space is for either drywall or any other interior wall material like wood.

I did 2x6 framed walls.  Walls were built in sections on saw horses and sheathed with 1/2" plywood on the ground and then lifted in place.  The plan is to spray closed cell foam(hard) 2" thick from the inside and then fill the rest of the cavity with open cell foam (trim-able) or batt.  Behind most of the posts, we had 2x6 studs too close to the post to be able to spray from the inside so we framed behind the posts with sheathing off so that we can spray foam from the outside in those locations.  It's a small job to do that first, but the foam guys didn't have a problem coming out for a few hours to do that.  Of course the timber posts had to be protected to prevent foam from getting on them.  The spray foam guys used 3/4" foam board from the box store and cut it to fig snugly into the back of the cavities behind the posts(installed from the outside).  They could then spray foam right up against the rigid foam.


 
I stick framed the walls to have the ability to easily change electrical around if I need to.  I used sips on the roof.  Since I didn't want conduit running inside, we created an electrical chase on the roof from 2x4's to run conduit for all the pendent lighting, cupola outlets for the vent fans, and it was also a convenient way... the only way to turn certain runs from one side of the building to the other.


 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

addicted

I haven't seen it mentioned for a while so I thought i might throw in here.  Be careful when installing exterior rigid foam. I just put up the first layer of 2" poyiso with fiberglass face and was unable to protect it from the rain. When it dried, it shrunk. Considerably. A 1-3" gap between panels.
Rusty

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