Safer table saws may get mandated, possibly preventing severed fingers : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2024/04/02/1241148577/table-saw-injuries-safety-sawstop-cpsc)
I think in addition to the upfront cost, everytime the system is actuated, a brake cartridge needs to be replaced for around $150. Cheaper than an ER visit.
I have used various quards over the years and if the saw is set up for a specific repetitive task they can work well but not as easy when the tasks are switching minute to minute. Most of the near misses I have seen are folks trying to do things outside the capacity of the equipment.
The one thing I learned years ago is to minimize potential exposure by dropping the blade height to bare minimum to clear the board and keep a couple of push sticks nearby.
I dont expect I will ever replace my Unisaw.
same here. some stuff requires the guards off. I usually get bit by band saws and circular saws, cause I am not as worried/careful. I want a saw stop, but love my Delta as well.
He's been lobbying for at least 20 years, the patent has to be about up ffcheesy .
I've used their cabinet model and it is a nice saw. I can see both sides. It doesn't require special guards to be "on". I'll have to wear out 3 others and the radial arm before I'm in the market. As always, the most important piece of safety gear is between your ears.
I must admit, my radial arm saw days are long since passed. We had a Craftsman version and I had more near misses with it than any other tool. No much demand for used ones.
The more crap they put on the tools the more complacent you get. Sawstop isn't going to stop kickback. If you have half a brain you can manage not to put your meat into the sawblade which is always in the same place. Circular saws, routers, biscuit joiners are all far more dangerous since the spinning meat grinders can go any which way if you make a mistake.
Just a money grab, subscription model for tools. Old iron is good iron.
A friend of mine bought a Saw Stop in an estate auction. Really nice saw.
I use a GRR-Ripper safety push block for the table saw and the GRR-Rip block for the jointer and router. You can pass right over the blade safely. Waxing the table surfaces makes the wood slide smoothly.
Radial arms saws are scary. I used to have a longer prep time to use a radial arm saw than I do for when I get suited up to use my chainsaw. What I use now is a Bosch sliding arm miter saw.
Saw Stop saws are great for school shops, community workshops etc. If I were an employer in a business where a table saw was necessary, I could see the possible payback especially if insurance loss management gets involved.
My approach in the school shop as a teacher and later as an administrator was, if the guard needs to be removed to do an operation, a different and safer tool needs to be used. In my own shop, I use that thinking up to a point. Feather boards and other devices get used frequently to keep fingers and hands away from the blade and to reduce kickback.
Saw Stops are way too expensive for me to put one in my shop just to replace a perfectly good and accurate tablesaw.
As soon as the 12" compound sliding miter saws were available, I got rid of radial saws in school shops.
I clicked on an ad for a free radial arm saw on Facebook Marketplace once, suddenly many of my ads were RAS...I might as well have clicked on an ad for free kittens or something😂
More and more stupid laws, people will still find ways to get hurt. Then come more and more laws on the books. Saw stop is available, leave it at that, IMO.
Six or seven years ago I helped to assemble all of the woodworking machines for a new craft school. A mixture of Jet, Grizzly, and the professional Sawstop. The quality of the Sawstop was far above the Jet and Grizzly machines. Everything was well packed and the manual is great. The quality was on par with made in the USA Powermatic's and Unisaws. Fit and finish was better. I was impressed how the dust collection was designed.
The Sawstop is used in the school by students with anywhere from zero experience to exceptional woodworkers with years of experience. As far as I know, it has been triggered three times. Once by a instructor cutting wet wood, once an unknown, and once possibly a finger. I have used the saw a lot and can see no difference in performance between it and my Unisaw.
If I were to replace my Unisaw without question it would be a Sawstop. The excellent dust collection is reason enough. I would hate to see legislation making the technology mandatory as it is expensive. I can remember when I was young and dollars for woodworking machines was hard to come by. Sometimes one has to make choices......
So SawStop is actually owned by Festool these days and they are making the patent open source when it expires this year, so they will not receive any royalties off of this. The claim is that by doing so others can improve upon the design and maybe make it cheaper and less expensive in the event of a stop incident.
Have to admit I was surprised by that.
Quote from: Southside on April 02, 2024, 09:54:45 PMSo SawStop is actually owned by Festool these days and they are making the patent open source when it expires this year, so they will not receive any royalties off of this.
It's not like they really have a choice. US patents are good for 20 years from date of filing. Idea is that the inventor gets that time to market / licence his invention, and make a profit. After that the patent expires, and others can copy the patented principle. Also, by the nature of the patent process, the patent is public knowledge (not a proprietary secret). You have to explain how your widget works in the patent.
The initial push back to mandating the Sawstop style tech was that the company wanted a large amount of $$ to licence their patent, and even sued other manufacturers that tried to market a similar system. With the patent expiring every other tool maker becomes free to produce their own version, without paying extortinate licence fees.
I am surprised this video hasnt made the forum Saw blade flies across parking lot, nearly hits man (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79GFUk4jaAE)
I guess they need a sawstop version to prevent this type of risk ;)
I have a saw stop table saw. I got it because I needed a table saw and it wasn't that much more than most other quality table saws. I figured the extra cost was cheaper than a hospital visit. I have some friends that are missing fingers, and over half of those friends that lost them were lost on a table saw. None of these friend are on the low IQ scale. They just had bad moments like we all do. Now they get to spend the rest of their lives missing digits. I'm not pushing the saw stop table, just saying that I don't think it is the worst thing to look at.
I have a friend that cut the end off of his index finger. I told him that he just could not point as far. :wacky:
Quote from: Ianab on April 02, 2024, 11:20:22 PMQuote from: Southside on April 02, 2024, 09:54:45 PMSo SawStop is actually owned by Festool these days and they are making the patent open source when it expires this year, so they will not receive any royalties off of this.
It's not like they really have a choice. US patents are good for 20 years from date of filing. Idea is that the inventor gets that time to market / licence his invention, and make a profit. After that the patent expires, and others can copy the patented principle. Also, by the nature of the patent process, the patent is public knowledge (not a proprietary secret). You have to explain how your widget works in the patent.
The initial push back to mandating the Sawstop style tech was that the company wanted a large amount of $$ to licence their patent, and even sued other manufacturers that tried to market a similar system. With the patent expiring every other tool maker becomes free to produce their own version, without paying extortinate licence fees.
All it takes is a tweak to the design and the patent protection can be renewed. Happens all the time. Seen any competition in the mono-rail sawmill design since 1986?
Selling to woodworkers, we used to have customers come in all the time with pieces of fingers missing and other scary blood spraying stories. Fresh bandages, gauze, and "I didn't even feel it" stories. Just last week a guy showed me a hand with one missing finger and I mentioned that a saw must have got it and he said no, the saw got them all, but they were able to reattach all but that one. I was giving a speech to a group of woodworkers a couple weeks ago, and I made a joke about the old guys were missing fingers and the new guys all had sawstops because of it. Now, when customers come to the store, all the stories I hear are of how people didn't lose their fingers when they screwed up and tripped the saw stop. Years ago, I thought the Sawstop was a gimmick but after hearing so many first hand stories from my customers since it came out, and about how it saved them from a trip to the hospital, nope, it is that good.
I hear of stories of guys who say after tripping a sawstop, they would now give up woodworking if they didn't have one, as it was a real scary thing that would have cut some real meat off if the saw didn't trip. I only know of two injuries with one. The first is a guy who slipped hard into one and it only drew a single drop of blood.
The second is a guy who was cross-cutting and wedged a board between fence and blade and got hurt about as bad as a conventional table saw.
I don't own one, I sold my table saw a few years ago and moved up to more automated machines. However, if I was going to get a new table saw, the only issue I would have is deciding which Sawstop model to get.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 03, 2024, 08:02:58 AMI thought the Sawstop was a gimmick but after hearing so many first hand stories
No pun intended? ffcheesy
I doubt it. It was an off handed comment! :uhoh: ffcheesy Ba dumdum.
Quote from: peakbagger on April 03, 2024, 06:30:52 AMI am surprised this video hasnt made the forum Saw blade flies across parking lot, nearly hits man (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79GFUk4jaAE)
I saw that but never got around to posting it. I think its also the next low-grade horror movie coming out. The possessed Saw Blade.
Nope, but I'm glad you "pointed" that out, and I guess I'll just have to "shoulder on."
Well you are cut from a different cloth.
Having spent a lot of time on those concrete saws, I would've been happy if the blade would've flew off so that I didn't have to use it anymore😁
Being a builder most of my life
I have spent many hour running a table saw.
I have witnessed 2 men who both in their late 60's have table saw accidents. Not very nice to see.
Both life long builders.
I would buy a saw stop.
One of my builder magazines had an article about the cheapest box store table saws (ryobi) type as being the tool that causes the most emergency room visits.
I wonder what a jobsite saw will weigh?
Quote from: Don P on April 03, 2024, 07:30:39 PMI wonder what a jobsite saw will weigh?
113 pounds
I am biased against SawStop because of the bullying tactics they tried when they first came out.
No one ever seems to mention that you have to turn it off to cut pressure treated wood. Sometimes I wonder if the sense of security from a Sawstop will inadvertently spill over to other tools in the shop and cause more injuries from bandsaws, miter boxes, jointers, etc.
I can see its value, especially in a school or shared shop environment.
Safety is a state of mind, and I still go back to the poster I printed in college:
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof, because idiots are so ingenious"
While I will probably never buy one, (as I prefer old machinery) I do not look down on those that do.
Doug in SW IA
I think as I get older it is more likely to save my ash. when I am stickering lumber and cuttin stickers, I get repetitive and go fast enough I occasionally contact the blade returning the block. more likely to hit me where the sun don't shine but might get a finger. My mentor Kenny was minus bits for two fingers when he died, both at the "hands" of a table saw. All guards off.
save, saw, sweep, stack, sticker, secure, and dry one log at a time - Page 2 (forestryforum.com) (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105726.msg1646583#msg1646583)
Sawing sticks on a tablesaw is when you need a power feeder. You can completely cover the blade and chance of a kickback is greatly reduced.
A 1/4 Hp feeder can overpower a 3 Hp tablesaw unless its kept on a slow speed. The 1/4 hp feeder is also light enough to easily lift on and off the saw. I put dual wheels (like a tractor) on my feeder to increase traction and stability.
I'm not good with table saw guards
I couldn't find any of mine.
I already have all the table saws I need .
I would buy a saw stop if I was starting out again.
I think you might find insurance companies pushing some bigger. builders into having them on site.
By the way I still use a radial arm saw for some things. The blade style has alot to do with it. They still have a place in a shop.
Quote from: Larry on April 04, 2024, 10:36:00 AMSawing sticks on a tablesaw is when you need a power feeder. You can completely cover the blade and chance of a kickback is greatly reduced.
A 1/4 Hp feeder can overpower a 3 Hp tablesaw unless its kept on a slow speed. The 1/4 hp feeder is also light enough to easily lift on and off the saw. I put dual wheels (like a tractor) on my feeder to increase traction and stability.
Easy enough to hang one from the ceiling on a chainfall or similar so you can lift it out of the way when not in use.
As don said, more often than not the issue is between the ears. I didn't know you could turn the cartridge off but if you can you better well believe the same folks who have those issues between the ears are going to turn it off and leave it off and still cut off their fingers. If you want a saw stop by all means go for it but mandates... c'mon
If you bypass the safety feature you have to do it each time you turn on the saw to make a cut. It resets every time you stop the saw. I do that for pressure treated wood.
The riving knife on the sawstop is well made and reduces the kickback potential. I think that's probably as big a difference maker as the brake. There are a few ways to retrofit a riving knife to older saws but nothing as neat or easy as a saw with that feature designed in.
That makes sense. Yea, to me, kickback is much more dangerous than the saw blade. The saw blade is always in the same place, the wood not so much. I have a Rockwell 12/14 table saw with an adjustable height blade guard suspended from the ceiling. Blade guard has a 3" dust port to top off the deal. Bad air is more more dangerous than tablesaws.
One way I see it being "mandated" isn't by a specific law, but more quietly via Insurance companies and OSH. NZ OSH laws state the an employer must take all "practical" steps to avoid workplace injuries. If your workers are operating machinery without the standard guards, and hurt themselves. you get prosecuted, even if the worker had a brain fart and did something dumb. Because making sure the guards were in place was "practical". There are some accidents that are impossible to predict, and impractical to fully protect against. Different legal situation in the US, but your Insurance Co is going to look at things in a similar way. If a workman's comp claim is more or less likely, that's going to affect your insurance premium.
So once multiple saw makers start incorporating the technology into their saws, it then becomes "practical" to outfit your workplace with it.
The tech wont eliminate all accidents, but if it prevents 50% of them, that's a lot less serious injuries. Think along the lines of modern cars having ABS and airbags. They don't protect you 100%, but you are less likely to crash, and more likely to survive if you still do.
This is a good video on what is going on;
When he mentions the Craftsman RAS recall. We rebuilt the cut end of 45 lines at the furniture plant I was working in to whirlwinds during that period. I can say a roommate had to have his thumb reattached after a RAS accident. They also had to look for the finger of a co-worker under a whirlwind. When we installed them there was a sensor that detected, crudely, whether your finger was too close to the guard when you hit the pedal. The sensor mangled a few fingers and most disconnected it.
Poor folks will end up doing what I did to start. Skil saws including one mounted under a piece of plywood for the tablesaw. Being it was stoopid I didn't post a picture of my shoe last year, not the first. Can't wait to pick up a skilsaw when they fix that problem.
I love my sawstop. For a long time my attitude was that I didn't need one, because I know how to use a tablesaw. I do not use guards. Never even had a riving knife before my SS. When I decided I was going to buy a new 3 hp cabinet saw, I realized that the prices were almost the same between a SS and powermatic. I realized SS was a great saw and why not have the safety feature to boot. I have triggered it once when I touched my miter guage to it. Oops. Cost me about $250 for a new cartridge and dado set. Still happy that the safety feature is there if I ever lose concentration. I doubt it will be mandated.
If your children decide to take up woodworking, a little peace of mind as well.
I used to work in a cabinet shop and was around all kinds of commercial power tools, so I am familiar with the danger. I bought a radial arm saw through a package deal at a garage sale. First time I used it scared the hell out of me and I junked the saw and converted the RAS stand into a reloading bench. Later I was given a RAS and immediately unbolted the saw from its stand and replaced it with a sliding chop saw. See lots of used RAS for sale for cheap. I would buy a sawstop when it comes time to upgrade my old Dewalt.
Saws I have in addiion to a shed full chainsaws .Old 9 inch Craftsman radial arm plus a 12 inch direct drive Craftsman cast iron top tablesaw .The later weighs a ton it seems and has the power to rip a 4 by 4 about as fast as you can feed it through .If it's repeated stuff ripping I use feather boards which are easy to make .
The radial I don't use to rip with .I do have both sizes of molding head cutters Sears sold with duplicate sets of cutters which I use in addition with a table mounted 3 HP plunge router to make molding and so forth .Both saws are set up to be the same height which makes it easy for something like long peices of lumber .My 12.5 inch Dewalt planer is set for the same height .
I spent an evening in the ER chatting with the brand new ER doc at our hospital. He was about a month into his first "real job" after xx years of school. We were chatting about what he thought of his first month, the kinds of ER visits he was seeing and what could be done to reduce "preventable" ER visits.
His top two?
"If nobody over 70 owned a table saw and nobody under 17 operated an ATV, avoidable ER visits would be significantly down"
Must have been an exciting "first month" for him. ffcheesy ffcheesy
This is good video that discusses what is going on.
I need to read this thread later today.