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What is it, Chestnut or Chinkapin? -- Updated pics!

Started by RPowers, August 26, 2013, 10:17:11 PM

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RPowers

I have several of these little trees on the eastern slope of my forest. The largest is about 6-8" diameter with a 25-30' height. I've not seen evidence of fruiting or flowering yet. Here is a shot of a leaf against the bark of the largest one I've found. 

 

Update:

Here are two leaf/twig pics of these trees, one of the top and one of the bottom. If this helps anyone be more able to ID this I'd appreciate it. I'm certain they are one or another, but determining if the undersides are glabrous or not is confusing me.


  

 

Thanks
2013 Woodmizer LT28G25 (sold 2016)
2015 Woodmizer LT50HDD47

mesquite buckeye

The leaves of American chestnut are without hairs. All the chinkapins are  hairy beneath. Both Allegheny chinkapin, Castanea pumila and Ozark chinkapin, Castanea ozarkensis occur in your state. The Allegheny chinkapin is conspicuously whitish and hairy beneath and the Ozark chinkapin has fine hairs under the leaves. The Allegheny species also has more hairs on the young stems. The species' ranges do overlap. ;D 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WDH

Historically, american chestnut did not range across the Mississippi River.  Like Mesquite said, if what you have is american chestnut, the leaves should be glabrous (smooth without hairs) on both the upper and lower surfaces.  The chinkapins have hairy leaves on the underside and the twigs also have a gray fuzz. 

Another distinguishing characteristic is the burr.  American chestnut had 2 - 3 nuts per burr and the burrs are 2 - 3" in size while the chinkapins only have one nut per burr and the burr is 1 - 1 1/2".

If it is chinese chestnut from Asia, the leaves and twigs will be hairy with the underside of the leaf a little lighter in color.  The burr has 2-3 nuts like american chestnut.  I bet it is a chinkapin. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tim Lea


WDH

It is all in the burr and the hairs  :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LeeB

 Chinkapin oak. I have a few of them. Not sure how far you are from me.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

LeeB

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

WDH

Chinkapin oak, Quercus muehlenbergii, has glands on the tips of the teeth on the leaves.  The leaves have blunt tips because of this.  The chinkapin has more of a pointed hair-like tooth on the serrated edge. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LeeB

I guess you are politely telling me I'm wrong then. :D Whatever it is, I have some of them also and am not too far away from the OP.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

WDH

Yes, I am being polite.  I have met you and found you to be a fine fellow.  It was a great pleasure meeting you and Lindy.  I am trying to ease you into the possibility that it might be chinkapin, but hey, I have been wrong before  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LeeB

I've been told by some of the old timers that there used to be a lot of chinkapin in the area, but it all died out in the 60's or so.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

mesquite buckeye

I'd say if we could see the fruits, we could make short work of these uncertainties. ;D 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

RPowers

It isn't a chinkapin oak, as I have several of those I've started from seed. Their leaves tend to be wider towards the tip , not symmetrical lengthwise like these are, plus they have a more "oakey" bark for lack of a better term. How hairy would the Chestnut leaves be? This one has something fine as frog hair underneath, almost microscopic, but it isn't thick or fuzzy.
2013 Woodmizer LT28G25 (sold 2016)
2015 Woodmizer LT50HDD47

RPowers

Here is a pic of the leaves from the parent tree of my little Chinkapin Oaks. Note the tip-heavy asymmetry. And blunter teeth.
2013 Woodmizer LT28G25 (sold 2016)
2015 Woodmizer LT50HDD47

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mesquite buckeye

If it has acorns, it is an oak. If it has burs, it is a chinkapin.

If it is a chinkapin, from what you say it is ozarkensis.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

grweldon

OK guys, I'm an idiot, but I was assuming we were talking about Chinkapin Oak VS Chestnut Oak.  Was I wrong?  Somebody mentioned Chinese and American Chestnut...

We are talking Oaks, right?
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

mesquite buckeye

WDH and LeeB are thinking it is a chinkapin oak, which is an oak of the white oak group that looks like a chinkapin, which is a type of native chestnut. There are several of these. The two genera are easily distinguished by the fruits. The problem here is we haven't seen the fruits in the photos. The leaves are superficially similar. ;D

Hope that helps.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

RPowers

As far as I can tell, the tree isn't fruiting, and hasn't for at least 2 years

We are talking about actual Chestnuts or Chinkapin trees, not oaks. I'm fairly certain it is not a Chinkapin oak, and I don't have Chestnut oaks.
2013 Woodmizer LT28G25 (sold 2016)
2015 Woodmizer LT50HDD47

WDH

No Mesquite.  That is not right.  I think that it is a chinkapin, definitely not an oak. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mesquite buckeye

WDH- apologies. I misread your posts.  :-[
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

enigmaT120

Our chinkapins are evergreens.  I've never seen a chestnut, but that leaf doesn't look like one of our golden chinkapins (can't remember the latin name, sorry).

Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

mesquite buckeye

Golden chinkapins are Castanopsis. The ones we are talking about are Castanea, so these are more closely related to the American Chestnut. Castanopsis is a mostly Asian genus, with just a couple of species in North America. Golden chestnut is still a fairly close relative, but the leaves are pretty different from the Castaneas. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WDH

Yes, I am a Castanea guy, myself  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mesquite buckeye

Hey WDH, are you going to try to get one of those newfangled chestnut blight resistant Am chestnuts? ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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