Granite vs marble vs Corian vs HI-MACS

[Warbird]

Hey guys...  I need help and y'all are pretty DanG knowledgeable so here is the situation (ps. Mods, if this is the wrong place to post this, plz move it?  Thanks!)...

The Mrs and I have been working on the house many years.  It's a real horror story but we are finally to the "making it look good" part.  The sheet rock is up, we're doing the mudding, and should have paint on the walls by the end of this month (God willing!).  We need to tile the hearth under our wood stove and would like to color match it to whatever counter tops we end up with.  Went down to Home Depot and Lowes yesterday and GOOD GRIEF but granite is expensive.  Not sure I want to go with granite counter tops.

Here are my questions:

For the hearth, is marble okay?  I've read that it can scratch and might fade a bit.  Is it 'polishable' to keep it shiny?  We picked out that dark green type of marble but this hearth has a 400+ lb stove sitting on it, it'll have the occasional hot embers on it, wood stacked on it, etc.  We really like the marble but if it would suck as a hearth, I don't wanna waste the money (it ain't cheap, even for a small hearth).

Counter tops...  [small_squeaky_voice] Help? [/small_squeaky_voice]

Anybody know anything about this "HI-MACS" stuff made by LG?  Sure seems nice and the price is right but what are the downsides?  If you order at least 25 sq ft of the stuff, installed, they include a new sink for free, which is good.  The Mrs wants one of those under mount type of sinks and they can be expensive.

Anyway, I'm about lost on counter tops.  We got ran over by ads and propaganda at the stores.  And I'm not sure about granite for counter tops.  The Mrs took a couple of plates in for color matching and when putting the plates down on the display counters, they were so hard it sounded like the plates were going to crack!

[SPIKER]

I think that you will find that the (spelling?) "Corran stuff" is good as long as no heat is applied I.E. leaving a hot pan on it or candle, therefore no fireplace on that.   
I do not know about the new composite faulx rock material (High quartz content mixed with a epoxy stabilizer and heated into solid shape & polished smooth.) It looks nice but is slightly expensive but might do for under the hearth as well as counter tops.   as far as granite goes it is near top of line needs care (cleaning and polishing regularly and can still scratch & chip.)  cleaning is usually a soap/water then applying a mineral oil over top to keep shine needs done regularly (quarterly or as needed) as you know expensive.  pressure points on it may eventually lead to cracking if the stove and base are not set easily and base must not move or flex under the weight.  many reasons that tile is used as they can be replaced as sections also very wear resistant.  great for floors or  counter tops...  less expensive possible DIY as well.   Whit you may look into is the "POUR IN PLACE" concrete which can be stained through & through in case it chips also can add crushed quartz for detail and looks.  also possible DIY or can do alot of forming work ahead of time...

Mark

[metalspinner]

We recently had to make all these decisions, too, Warbird.  We ended up with a porcelain tile for all the counters in the kitchen, however.  The price was right - I installed it myself.  With all the different colors, sizes, and textures you can match just about any wood in your cabinets.  It's just not as sexy as the other materials you mentiond. ;)

For the hearth, I would throw natural stone in the discussion.  It rarely goes out of style and again comes in many varieties of color and texture.

Did I just add to your confusion? :D :D

[Larry]

Never heard of HI-MACS so I did a little investigating...looks to be another entry into the solid surface arena.  We put in Corian counter tops about 20 years ago.  The stuff is easy to clean and maintained it looks all those years.  One word of caution...the stuff has to be installed correctly or it will crack.  Our counter installer didn't know what he was doing...the stuff cracked and he blamed the cabinet maker.  The cabinet maker blamed DuPont.  DuPont blamed the counter installer who skipped town...nobody stepped up to the plate to accept the blame.  I chalked it up to an expensive mistake as I got tired of pursuing the inept.

S-I-L put in the quartz stuff from LG few years ago and loves it...no problems at all.

I would think about ceramic tile for your hearth...ton of patterns are out now and it is easy to install.

And since the forum has something to do with wood....ya ever think of wood countertops?  I just happen to know somebody who makes really nice end grain tops. :D :D :D

The Mrs wants one of those under mount type of sinks and they can be expensive.

And whoever came up with that idea? ??? ???  I thought the old sinks were just fine.  Kathy wants one too...your right they are expensive to buy and install.






 

[Warbird]

Thanks for the replies, guys.  What you say about shifting, cracking, and chipping, is real interesting.  The foundation of our house shifts quite a bit...  so I'll have to think about that, too.  The old cabinets were glued and stapled in place.  Never had any problems but it was a really cheap laminate counter top.  :-\

We didn't even look at the natural stone and will have to correct that.  Is ceramic tile pretty robust?

Whatever we go with for counter tops, I'm having them installed.  Some friends are going to help me install the cabinets.

Larry, I never even considered hardwood counter tops.  I think that'd be awesome.  How pricey are they and how durable?  Feel free to send me a PM.

[Don_Papenburg]

I am leaning toward stainless steel for our new countertops.  My second choice would be granite.  very durable  ,I have used it for my window sills .   I looked at brick it cracks &splits   Limestone looks good new but stains over the years .  All the old granite tombstones still shining after all these years convinced me .  Marble is top of the line limestone .  Asoft stone that stains and scratches easily. 
On the undermount being expensive , that is crazy . There is less work tomake an undermount .  The top flange does not have to be finnished /polished . nor is it as big as a selfriming .       I used an old ss sink with a seperate rim as an undermount  in my wifes summer kitchen .  I installed it on the cabinet and made  a hard maple counter top for it. 
I would not use wood in a kitchen that is used everyday , lots of maint.

[Woodwalker]

We went with Corain instead of granite. It's my understanding that because of the pores in the stone you have to apply a "seal coat" to it at least once a year. Yep, undermount sink to boot.

[TexasTimbers]

We are installing wood slabs (I have 2 of them installed) and at least one concrete countertop. I have a DIY concrete DVD that is too cool. No details left out.

Although I have not yet made the concrete countertop that we have designed and settled on I have no worries about how it will turn out. It is going to be the lower portion of a 9' long 2-level counter ensemble that will serve as the main kitchen countertop/breakfast bar (the upper level, another wood slab ) that divides the kitchen and dining area.

The wife didn't want her back to the action when she cooks. Me neither, I cook nearly as often as her. The concrete counter will house the cooktop and one of the kitchen sinks, have a countersunk "drain board" that I will create within the mold, and a slightly raised lip around the sink, built into the mold. A monolithic counter so no seams, creases, or other places for nasties to congregate.

It will be too heavy to make it in my shop and move (it *could* be done but hey....) safely so the dining area will be used for the shop site just prior to carpet. We are pretty close to this phase and I plan to make a step-by-step video of it.

As some of you may know, concrete counters can be made to be as slick as glass and have any color, pattern, highlight, imbedded materials, shapes, and anything else your imagination can concieve.

They are not for everyone because nothing is, but for our application and likes, there is no downside once it is done. The mold must be perfect, and every process in it is critical. You must be meticulous in your execution, so if there is a downside it is in the creation of it.

These are just highlights Warbird, you may not want to be going thorugh all of that trouble, and the misssus or yourself may not like the idea of conrete, but if you are considering granite and you are a DIYer, you should explore the option fully. Theyt are considerably more economical if you do it your self, and WAY more versatile in the appearances you can achieve, and you can make monolithic counters that turn corners, have the seamless backsplashes, buiult in drain boards, and even sinks. All one piece. You can make the sink a different color and still have it as part of the counter! No end to possibilities.

Even after we have watched the video twice now (it will put you to sleep if you are not careful) we have seen concrete counters on TV and one down in Waco when we went down for our anniversay, and we did not know it was concrete. I asked the innkeeper "What material is this counter it's beautiful!?" She said "Concrete!"

I did not even recognize it as such. The stuff is more versatile than anything I have ever "encountered", for countertops. ;D

[Don_Papenburg]

Is your dvd from the Japanese guy or buddy rhodes?  Buddy Rhodes does some of his so that he has imperfections and then he fills with contrasting colors and polishes it for a sorta marble look.  Concrete was one of my possibilities , but I got to thinking that with the way I wanted the counter it would be a bear of a job.

[Warbird]

Welp...  measured out the cabinets today.  Looks like I'll be spending a whole lotta dough next weekend.  :-\  Figured up the approx sq footage of counter top space we'll have and it looks like I'll be spending at least as much just on the counter tops.  We haven't decided on the material yet for the counters nor the hearth.

I'll be so happy when this is all done (because the Mrs will be happy, mainly.  And because I'll stop hemorrhaging cash).  Ah well.  You know what the say...  "happy wife, happy life".  ;D

[srt]

Hello Warbird, 

Since I have some experience in this area, I'll give you my thoughts.

I'm a custom cabinetmaker by trade.  Our work is probably plit down the middle between kitchens and other custom wood projects such as entry doors, custom millwork, some furniture, and a little bit of refinishing/repair work.  Although we only build a few kitchens per year, about 90% of them get granite counter tops.  I believe it's the best quality countertop available.  I have NO experience with the composite countertops that have been available for the last few years that contain natural stone, but are glued up with a chemical.  I think others have discussed them.

You need to be certain the granite you're getting is the real deal, not some other stone imported and dyed to look like granite.  There is a test using a lemmon that can be ran to determine if what you're getting is up to par.  Google granite lemmon test, and I'm sure you'll find some more detailed info.

For granite, I'd look for a local, small company to do the whole job, from templating to the end.  Let them handle it all.  Ask them to allow you to visit homes of folks they've done granite work in.  Ask the homowners if the guy met time and budget.  Any reputable small company should be happy to meet the request to visit previous clients - PROVIDING you are serious about having them do your granite work.  Please don't waste their time with a home visit if you're just kicking tires.  I've had customers deal with the big companies and the little ones.   With the big companies, it's never as nice of a job and never cheaper (for quality materials and work) than it is with the little guy.  Both of the "little guy" companies we regularly see on jobs always have the company owner on site and working on the job.  The big guys send out a crew.  The crew may or may not be up to snuff.  You want the little guy who is business person enough to be on time and on budget, but craftsman enough to care about doing a really good job.  His former customers will set you straight about his  performance.

About Marble.  It's a wonderful, gorgeous material that can actually be done by you.  A couple years ago, we sold our big house and bought a little shack to gut, remodel and move into.  As a throwback to the old 3K ft2 victorian we sold, I asked my better-half if she'd like a small piece of marble under the toilet in the new shack.  She said yes, so I went searching.  I found a piece on EBAY that was just right in size.  Won it for 99 cents.  Shipping was going to be like 99 dollars.  While speaking with the seller, she said her back yard was littered with slabs of marble much bigger than the one I'd bought, and she'd like to get rid of them.  So, I put my shipping money into my gas tank and paid her a visit.  I ended up buying a bunch of the stuff from her.  When I got it home and unloaded it, it covered my hay wagon two  layers thick.  It had been laying around in a lady's back yard for years after the boyfriend who brought it there had left the scene.  The boyfriend had been involved in the demolition of an old building.  I paid about $150 for the whole batch and paid some local kids to help me load it into my work truck. 

While trying to figure out how to make this stuff into countertops, I ran into all sorts of roadblocks.  When talking with the tooling companies that sell the stuff to work it, they just about convinced me that I needed to spend over $2,000.00 just to equip myself with the bare basics to cut, shape and polish the stuff.  Then they tried to convince me that it was a highly skilled trade, and really should be left up to the pros.

I got to thinking about all this diamond tooled equipment and realized that they've been working marble for thousands of years, and I doubt they had all that fancy stuff to work it with.  So, I started googling about working marble, and came across some old marble books (e-books) online.  I also spoke with a friend who does a little jewelery with stones.  Here's what I found.  You can cut the stuff with a diamond blade in a circular saw.  I tried a cheap one from ebay that cost about $20 for water cooled saw and blade.  Mistake!  Ended up going to Homie Dopie and buying a small water cooled circular saw for about $100.  Bought a decent diamond blade for about $40.  Ran it on a GFI protected line.  Used jigs to get straight lines.  Worked like a charm.  Decided to use beveled edges on the countertop, so I didn't have to route a profile.  Was able to set the saw at a 15 degree bevel . 

Next came the honing. Some marble folks put a "honed" finish that doesn't reflect light much.  I wanted a polished look.  From the books, I found you could use waterproof silicon carbide sandpaper to do the honing.  So, I used my 6" random orbital sander (again GFI) and sanded it  from 100 through 600 grit on the marble.  Water was used from a hose/nozzle, just to lubricate and keep the slop washed off.

After 600 grit, I polished it with a floor polishing pad (like a floor buffer uses) and a mixture of oxalic acid and tin oxide.  Speed is fussy, as too fast will cause orange peel.  Took some time, but it worked.   Made an adapter to mount a piece of buffing pad onto my random orbital. Buffed it "wet", again GFI'd.

Glue up was done with epoxy, epoxy die and razor blades.  The razor blade is worked (gently) across the joint to determine if the two halves of the joint are on the same plane, and to take down high spots of epoxy.  I bought the "slow set" epoxy.  The guys who do it everyday use faster setting stuff.  Since I assembled it in place on top of my cabinets, I didn't feel the need to "rod" the thin pieces, like infront and behind the sink.  In restospect, I should have rodded them.  Cut a channel on the underside and epoxy a length of electrical "fish tape" in place would have strenghtened the joints.  I had a joint crack (hairline) when I was jostling around the top.

two years later, we're really pleased with the marble work. I did the kitchen countertop, under the toilet, outside the shower, window seat top, and even a piece as a top on a step back chest I built into the little shack.  HOWEVER, it's not at all durable as far as scratching and staining go.  Gotta keep acids away (citrus, vinegar, etc.)  Don't even think of cutting on it.  It's just for looks!


I've made a few wooden countertops.  Even one from white pine!  These have been for customers who are very careful!  I would not recommend them unless you are very careful also.  Believe it or not, the white pine one looked nearly as good after five years as when it was installed.  That lady was very good to it.  Didn't abuse it, and ALSO didn't scrub the finish off of it.  I've had different  customer who has actually scrubbed the post catalized lacquer paint finish off her cabinets around the door knobs.  A gentle wiping with a damp rag would have done the trick, but she thought scrubbing constantly, and daily was better.  We've been back several times and refinished several parts of that kitchen.  It's coming up on time to charge her for her mistreatment of our cabinetry.  It's the only call back we've had in ten years of using this product.

I've built and installed corian and surrell countertops.  They are fun to make.  They cost nearly as much as granite, but are no where as durable.  We haven't made one in nearly ten years, because we just don't recommend them. If you can afford corina/surrell, you aren't too far from granite in price.  in my book, there's no comparison in the durability, look and feel of solid surface and granite.

The best bang for the buck countertop (IMO) is formica.  I hate making them, because there are so many "top shops" that roll them out the door flying, that we just can't come anywhere near competing.  However, when we are asked by a customer to make them a top from formica, we will.  Here's what we do that in our opinion makes a difference.  We never put 'mica on particle board if water is nearby.  Instead, we use cabinet grade birch plywood.  I've pulled many particle board based  'mica c-tops that have "tamponed" from a little bit of H2O.  We never put the seam at the sink.  Many top shops seem it at the sink, because this is the easiest place to make a joint - just a couple places about 2 inches long.  Also, we seal, seal, seal the underside around dishwasher areas.  Stems will make a mess there.  We use high flam glue, not the newer waterbased stuff.  We double coat the contact cement on both the substrate and the laminate with a tight nap 1/4 inch roller.  Most top shops now use a non flam spray on adhesive, and single coat both pieces.  I'm not saying they're wrong with that, but we feel better with the old stuff, and we don't have to buy all that spray equipment.


One more thing.  I love the old standby stainless steel sink that sets into the hole on the countertop.  I know it's not as pretty as undermounts, or custom made stone sinks, but I love the functionality and easy clean of SS.  They last forever!

OK, I'll shut up now.  Surely I need to do something else today!

[TexasTimbers]

Is your dvd from the Japanese guy or buddy rhodes? 

His name is Fu-Tung Cheng so tyhat would make him Chinese, or at least non-Japanese. ;D

Name of the DVD is Concrete Countertops 1-2-3 with Fu-Tung Cheng.

I would caution anyone considering it to be advised from the get-go, it is not a fast and easy process to do this. It is about a 12 day process using his methodology. It would not fit Warbirds desire to get it over with quickly. :D

[Paschale]

Man, SRT...I'm going to print out your response!  I'm going to be working on my kitchen later this summer, and you sure have shared a lot of food for thought!

One thing to consider with granite that I've seen in some kitchen remodel books as well as being something my brother did in his house is that fact that you can make a nice looking counter top with granite floor tiles.  It's acceptable, and looks great and my brother's kitchen looks fantastic.  The look of the tile can actually become part of the design element, and you've got granite counter tops at a fraction of the cost of full slabs. 

[mountaineer]

warbird,  lg himacs and corian are the same material, just different makers. they make good countertops but are heat sensitive. if they are scratched they can be buffed out.

quartz countertops,  (lg viatera and dupont zodiac) are considered by most in the industry to be the best all around countertop. they are the most heat resistent, strongest, and never have to be sealed unlike granite. the only drawback to quartz is that it can chip if hit hard enough.

granite is the most popular in my area just above quartz. granite to me is the most attractive
but is not as strong or as heat resistant as quartz, but there is a new type of granite that has a  15 year seal on it so you won't have to reseal for quite a while. in my area granite and quartz are about the same price, just depending on the color you choose. 55-75$ psf installed (and also can chip.)

tile is something you can do on your own and will reduce the cost greatly but the poeple that i have talked to don't like it because they can't seem to seal the grout good enough and it starts staining. other than that it has a lot of plus's and few drawbacks.

speaking of wood, butcher block countertops are beautiful, but the most expensive and a lot of hassle. 

hope this helps,  andy

[srt]

I can't qualify this, but from what I've read, the granite that needs to be sealed is not real granite, or at the very least, not the good stuff.  Again,don't take that as gospel, do a little research.  I don't know the fellow in the link below - nothing to gain or loose, just something I found.

http://www.mygranitecare.com/granite-kitchen-counter-tops.html

[Warbird]

Wow you guys.  This is more information than I had hoped to get.  Thank you so much.  And srt, I really appreciate your taking the time to type all of that out.  I'll call some of the 'small shops' around town today.  We have at least 2 that I know who do granite and counter top work.

The cabinets we are getting are the "in stock" cabinets from Lowes.  I know, I know...  but honestly, for the amount of cabinets we are putting in and for how beautiful their hickory cabinets look right outta the box, you just can't beat the price.  We're on a tight budget here.  I briefly looked at getting custom cabinets made but the cost would have been over $10,000 just for the cabinetry.  :(

[mountaineer]

if you're getting the cabinets at lowes then make sure to get a 10% off coupon. also they have 12 months no payments no interest as well. you can send off for a coupon with the change of address package at your local post office. (you don't have to change address- it's in with the forms  good luck- andy

[srt]

Warbird, 

No need to feel bad about buying cabinetry from Lowes.  I always say - "they'll hold beans just as good as the ones I make".   

What makes me cringe is when folks go to fancy kitchen showroom places where they "MAKE" absolutely nothing and everything has a barcode on it.    They spend 28K just for the "custom cabinetry" that's no more custom than the stuff you could order from lowes, except that it has more barcoded mass produced crap screwed onto it to make it look "rich".  Then they have to pay a piecework installer to install it. 

Folks don't get as much as they could, and pay much more than they should at these places.

I never feel bad when I loose a job to Lowes or Home Depot.  When we loose a job to one of the fancy showroom places, I feel that we didn't market properly.

[Warbird]

if you're getting the cabinets at lowes then make sure to get a 10% off coupon. also they have 12 months no payments no interest as well. you can send off for a coupon with the change of address package at your local post office. (you don't have to change address- it's in with the forms  good luck- andy

Andy, where is this 10% off coupon you are talking about?  I don't have a Lowes credit card and don't plan on getting one unless they will grant us the 10% off to make the purchase on it.  I'd simply pay it off within the first month and immediately close the account.  It'd be worth the $300!

srt, I hear you.  We got 'marketed' to by the same type folks.  I saw what was up right away (it helps I've got a couple of friends who are into wood working).  I'll get some pics up of the progress soon.  We hope to have the cabinets hung within 2 weeks. 

After lots of cogitatin' and discussin' things with friends, and given our situation, we are going to install the cabinets before texturing and painting.  It means a bit of work to cover them when it is time to paint but we just have to do it this way so they can get in and template out whatever counter tops we decide to go with.

Thanks again you guys.  I really appreciate all this information.  Wish I could buy ya all a cigar, a cup of coffee, a beer, or whatever.

[srt]

Warbird, 

Glad it was a help.  Tell you what,  I'll settle for a line on a small local mill that cuts Alaskan Yellow Cedar.  IIRC, there's not too much in your immediate area though.

We use it often in repairs for exterior stuff.  Hard to come by.  Would like to purchase smaller quantities (few hundred BF) direct from the guy who saws it.

If that's not doable, just send me a piece of fresh Salmon.  Being a plankowner of the USS Alaksa, I'm an honary Alaskan, and couldn't get enough of the stuff when I visited your great state!

I gotta quit running my mouth and get in the hayfield!

[little Bark]

I just read in consumer reports that granite was #2 Quartz was #1 and a little cheaper the granite porclin/cermaic tile was #3 in there ratings.  The tile was in there estimate 10 to 30 dollars a sq. foot as opposed to 50 to 200 dollars a sq foot for the granite.  I will have to reread the artical tonight so that I can get my facts straight but I think I'm close.  I think the tile would work in both places fine.

marble was the worst rated material for a counter top.  They gave marble a rating of 13 as opposed to granite they gave a rating of 86

This was edited from my orginal post.

[jdtuttle]

Warbird,
For the hearth you may ask some heavy equipment contractors if they have anything laying around their yards from a demolition job. I recently built some retaining walls & was going to install blue stone for a cap. I was talking to my brother who works for a contractor that recently did a demo job at a local hospital. I bought 8 large pieces of granit for $160. I estimate over a $1000. value.
I love to recycle, especially while saving $$$

jim

[Michigan Mike]

If you want to do the concrete be prepared for lots of manuel labor. Last year I helped my son in law redo his kitchen. We poured about 20 lineal feet of 30 inch wide counter and a  7 by 7 foot island. I am a retired carpenter and have worked in many phases of the trade from concrete form work to fine trim in some of the local churches . I wasen't too enthused about using concrete for a counter top but must say I was favorably impressed with the finished product. It is however a lot of work plan on calling in all your favors from any of your hefty size buddys when it comes time to set the counter tops and also plan on reinforcing the cabinets under the counter tops. The son in law had the book Cheng wrote and used the couloring dyes that Cheng sells for these countertops.

[beenthere]

srt
For the Alaskan yellow cedar, you might try writing or contacting the Forest Service office on Wrangell Island. There may still be a mill there cutting some yellow cedar.

There were attempts 10-12 years ago to harvest some of the vast numbers and volumes of dead Alaskan yellow cedar, which have been shown to maintain their good, sound condition even after 100 years standing dead.

Possibly a source from this area would yield the material you want to buy.

Just a thought.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/districts/wrangell/

[Warbird]

srt, I'll try the 3 local mills I know of; however, you are right in that there isn't much Alaskan yellow cedar this far north.  I will call the guys who know for sure and let ya know what they have to say.