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Author Topic: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.  (Read 4718 times)

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Offline CHARLIE

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Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« on: October 24, 2001, 01:27:13 PM »
"I place economy among the first and most virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy."

Thomas Jefferson  


 
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline Don P

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2001, 06:24:23 PM »
I'm trying to remember a quote from Mark Twain as he travelled by steamer throughout the old world. I remember in Rome he was incredulous that the emperor could get away with taxing his subjects, I believe 5%. He couldn't see how a man would knuckle under to such a heavy burden without revolting. To be honest...
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline woodmills1

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2001, 08:53:50 PM »
taxes are what enable americans to support ther lifestyle..  i don't mind paying my fair share of the american way.  leveys are not what i mean. i pay a share of my income to support our american way.  don't you!         things have changed but we haven't.   we make america, let's do it. :) :D :D :D
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline Eggsander

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2001, 06:33:30 AM »
What's truly amazing though is people's propensity to raise taxes as long as it suits there individual wants. Most people will tell you that they would like to see their taxes lowered. Some even get vocal and upset over "wasteful government spending" by "those politicians". However when they are given the opportunity through local city council, county government, or school board, they seem to feel that a small increase in taxes to further there own beliefs is perfectly acceptable.
Case in point, a local "concerned citizens group" has determined that our town needs "fixing up". They have then decided that an increase in local sales tax would be the perfect vehicle to raise the funds needed to perform the projects they deem necessary to make our town look nicer. They've gone to the city council who seem to agree that this would be a wonderful benefit to the community. The groups representative was even happy to reprt that the projected average cost to residents would be only 13 cents a day, and that once their projects were completed the tax could be eliminated. As nice as that sounds, I find it hard to accept since they've never even proposed a specific project or given a cost estimate yet. So the concept of an easy to afford, short term tax to complete yet to be determined projects seems to be a little hard to swallow ( have you ever known anyone in government to decide they can't find a use for your money anymore).  >:( >:( >:(
Even stranger is that at least a few in the group are ultra-conservative Rush L. types who would normally be screaming for reduced taxes.  :o
My point of this rant is that we all have the propensity to spend more than we should and this carries into governement as well. It seems that once an elected official gets into office they get wide eyes and can't seem to help spending whatever they can get their hands on.  ::)
Sorry for the long-winded rant this stuff was just in the paper and the irresponsibleness of it really burns my britches.
It's 30 degrees out with a steady 30+ mph NW wind and spitting a little snow. I think I'll go get on a dozer and cool them britches off a little.  8)
Steve

Offline CHARLIE

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2001, 10:42:09 AM »
Thomas Jefferson's point was not to let government convince the people that they should take care of them. Because if they do....taxes will be forthcoming at a phenominal rate. Well.....we did just that. Roosevelt instigated Social Security, then Johnson's Great Society and I'm not sure who put in Medicare. It just goes on and on and taxes just keep coming.

Woodmills1, I suggest you move to Minnesota and then you will be in heaven. Here, you get to pay an 8% state income tax along with high fuel taxes, high property taxes and even can pay some city taxes if you live in the right city. I don't know where you live, but moving to Minnesota would be a good move for you.

Eggsander, don't let those Ying Yangs pass that city tax by telling people it's temporary. You can use Rochester as an example. After the big flood in the late 70's, the city needed some money to put in a flood project (which now keeps Rochester from flooding but floods downriver communites faster) and convinced the people to pass a 1% city sales tax. Well, guess what......surprise, surprise......when the time came to get rid of the tax, Rochester liked the money so much they got it extended. When the extension finally ran out they went to bat and got it extended but did have to reduce it to .5% city sales tax. Let me see......that temporary tax has been on the books for over 20 years now.  If some of the people of Albert Lee want to beautify their city, then tell them to get off their keesters, pick up a rake and shovel or hammer and get to work. Don't just ask for the city government to do it for them.  That is the problem. People decide they want something done but they don't want to do it themselves. So they just relinquish their freedoms to the government so they'll "take care of them". Grrrrrrr    >:(
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline Don P

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2001, 11:54:50 AM »
"The role of government is to do for the people what they can not do for themselves". Abe Lincoln
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline CHARLIE

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2001, 01:08:52 PM »
Key word is "can not".   Who determines whether the people "can not" or "will not" or even if they "want to"?  Maybe the people "can" but don't want to.    :o   Besides, Lincoln was a lawyer.;D
Charlie
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Offline woodmills1

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2001, 02:18:01 PM »
charlie, thats a New Hampshire flag flying on my post.  ;) up here we have no income or sales tax though we have many other types of taxes.  1.5 % for real estate transfer half, from buyer and seller.  18 % inheritance tax unless a direct relative. :(  but we also have a wonderful current use property tax, that in my case reduces the taxation on my forest land to less than 100 dollars. :) :)  it is a great program as long as your not considering development.  i only implied that a fair share is the price we must pay.  some taxes drive me nuts.  i live in NH but my day job is just over the border in mass, so i pay 5% of my income to a state that i don't get services from.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline swampwhiteoak

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2001, 02:26:40 PM »
woodsmills1,
I've only traveled through NH, but I love that state motto "Live Free or Die!".  NH and Maine must be the only places in the world where you can get lobster at McDonalds.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2001, 03:54:38 PM »
I consider all natural resources to be wealth generators.  You can either grow crops (trees and food), extract elements (mining and oil drilling), or create energy (hydro or wind).  These produce wealth without having to put any time into the system.  All other money is just recycled wealth from previous years.

Now, if I grow trees and sell them, I have created wealth into the system.  If I buy some services off of Jeff (for example), I pay him with that home grown wealth.  I call that a generation of money.  As long as I spend it, it goes to the next generation.

If you consider a 16% tax rate (I know its a lot higher), by 9 generations, the government has most of the created wealth, just through taxes.  Patriotic duty to spend?  Only if you want to keep them in business.

The founding fathers had it right.  Its the interpretations that have been put on it since that are messed up.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2001, 04:05:03 PM »
Hey.. what... I'm missing sumpthin here.

I'm wanting to charge ya for sumpthun now, but what? I knoow!  I will make you a custom user image. that one you got just reminds me of some place I would want to sit if a witch was chasing me.
What are ya willing to pay with that old money for a custom image of a woodtick?
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life.
Ezekiel 22:30

Offline woodmills1

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2001, 08:56:37 PM »
patriot missels cost how much?
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline Eggsander

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2001, 09:46:45 PM »
A lot more than patriot mussels, that's for sure.  ;D
Charlie,
That's my point exactly. People continue to look to government to do something for them with the idea that this little increase here or there is insignificant as long as they get out of it what they want. They don't seem to realize how many others have similar plans for their own pet projects, and that all of this adds up to shackle all of this.
woodmills,
I have no problem with paying the taxes necessary to run our government, provide our security, etc. I doubt anyone here does. Times such as these we are experiencing now definately show the importance of a strong Federal government.
Jeff,
Sounds like an interesting venture, but whatcha gonna have that woodtick doing?  ::)
Steve

Offline CHARLIE

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2001, 09:56:06 PM »
A Patriot Missle cost more than I make in a year, but that is for the defense of our country. Old Tommy J. was talking about letting the government create a welfare state in the guise that they know what is best for us and need to take care of us.....Look at the moneys spent on Social Security, the moneys spent on Medicare and Medicaid, the moneys spent on food stamps and welfare, the moneys spent collecting taxes for these programs and the moneys wasted in all these programs. I think Mr. Jefferson was saying not to allow the government to socialize because they will suck you dry with taxes.  Add up how much tax you pay and it doesn't matter what kind of tax it is....it all comes out of the same pocket. I'll bet you'd find you were paying more than 40% of your wages in tax. >:(    In fact, the U.S. government even taxes us on the money we pay out in gas and sales tax. >:(  >:(>:(
Charlie
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Offline swampwhiteoak

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2001, 06:48:36 AM »
Income tax (federal, state, and city for me), social security tax, medicare tax, sales tax, gas tax, capital gains tax, vehicle tax, property tax, school tax, aahhhh.  Yeah, 40% isn't too far off.

Offline Tom

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2001, 04:21:08 PM »
 :D I like this thread.  Go gett'em Charlie.  I hear an echo.  Anybody else got a little Brother like this.   I am sitting back listening to myself and haven't said a thing.  It makes it a lot easier to Argue and Debate when somebody else is carrying your torch. ;D
extinct

Offline Gordon

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2001, 05:32:57 PM »
What state is the first state?
Which state has the most corporations?

Even a better tax set up than NH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hay woodmill does everyone from Mass still hit the NH state liquor stores?

Does half of the people in Mass still own a quarter acre in NH so they don't have to pay all that tax on their travel trailer.
That is taxachoosits-----hehehehehehe

The answer to the top two questions are Delaware.
My place of residence.
http://www.cdedc.org/community_info/taxes.html

http://www.cdcc.net/local/taxes.html

For all of you who want to move here DE state homepage.
http://www.delaware.gov/
Gordon

Offline timberbeast

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2001, 05:11:10 PM »
Woodrow Wilson instituted the federal income tax,  before that,  there was none.  The founders,  such as Jefferson,  believed that the function of federal government consisted of 1.  An army  2.  A court system  3.  A congress to represent the people,  and 4.  A police force.  Everything else would be left for the individual states to decide,  provided that they did not infringe upon anyone's INDIVIDUAL rights!
Where the heck is my axe???

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2001, 04:20:20 AM »
I believe there was an income tax levied during the Civil War.  Wilson just made it constitutional by having it ratified.

There were only 2 functions of government.  National protection and regulation of commerce.  The regulation of commerce still continues between states.  However, what happens within a state is still up to the state.

Somewhere, the legislators got it in their head that they also have the right to redistribute wealth.  Tax rates are now higher than what they were during the Revolution.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline CHARLIE

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Re: Thomas Jefferson quote worth reading.
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2001, 11:08:50 AM »
"However, what happens within a state is still up to the state."

The states may have the authority to make their own decisions, BUT the Federal Government has them there too. The Feds say......do it my way or we will withdraw the Federal dollars we give you. The states have become so DEPENDENT on Federal dollars that they pretty much have to do what they are told. A good example is back in the '70's when the 55 mph speed limit was forced on the states. The Feds said....either reduce your speed limit to 55 mph or lose the money we send you for highway construction.  Guess what the states did.  

What it boils down to is that the Feds suck huge volumes of money from the people to redistribute to the states, and they use this distribution of our money to force the states to do what the Feds want them to do. A lot of people think this is free money the Feds are passing out, but it's not.....it's our own money.  How's that feel? To be held ransom by your own  money. :(
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"


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