Start of something big?

[Jeff]

    

From something so small?

    Well, thanks to SAWTOOTH I have a supply of Alabama Paulownia tomentosa seeds. The talk is of phenomenal growth (10 to 15ft a year??), and fantastic value of the logs. But alas, we may be to far north. Hugh say's if it'll grow here, they should be quite valuable due to the slower rate of growth and resulting tighter growth rings that will occur this far North.
http://www.pauloniatrees.org
http://www.paulownia.com/
I am going to run my experiments with growth right here for all of you to see, success or failure. Starting with a picture of the seeds. I take credit for all success, if they don't even sprout it's Hugh's fault.

This photo shows seeds at twice normal size if your resolution is 800 by 600

Tomorrow, planting and where I will be keeping the seed beds.

[Jeff]

Planted! 2/27/2001

[Jeff]

     Our home is on the south side of the road facing north, and that's where most of the windows are. Not a real good direction for sunlight. But! we have a vaulted skylight in the new part of our home and it does face south, so, thats where the paulonia seeds will start out. It should be sunny, a little more humid, and a little warmer, because of the vault. Besides that, the seeds will have all that cedar for moral support!

Sawtooth, if your looking in, how long before germination can be expected??

[Hugh Darty]

You should see results in about two weeks. Be sure and check your soil moisture every day, as your growing area appears to be warm and dry, which is what you want. You also don't want much direct sunlight, about sixty to seventy percent of normal.

After your seeds sprout they will set and not grow for two more weeks. After that they will take off! By the middle or end of April yours should be outgrowing your trays and ready to transplant. You should not place them outdoors until all danger of frost is over.
 
I will give planting instructions when trees are right size!

[Don P]

We have a few growing in the neighborhood but ice really seems to do a number on them, about 3000' southern VA mts. There is a beautiful plantation at the base of the mountains, piedmont NC. I'll try to get a pic next time I go down there.???

[Gordon]

So let me get this straight that if the trees take off and grow great your going to take all credit for them.:)now is that fair Jeff?

So the closer growth rings could also mean a stronger tree??? Or am I in left field on that one?

One last question are the people that are growing these trees finding market for them?

Oh by the way check out my new user pic---8)
Gordon

[Jeff]

I think the other guys will have to aswer wheather the wood is stronger. From my understanding it would be at least more stable. I would think more dense would translate to more strength. I know that some of the "antique logs" that are being recovered in underwater logging in the great lakes are worth moe because of the closer growth rings then their more modern relatives. Rons?

Naw, I won't take the credit, I just want to draw attention away from me if they don't grow:

[Ron Wenrich]

Pawlonia is purely an export wood.  The Japanese use it for dowry chests and other things important to their culture.  It is a very light wood and carves very well.

Markets would be primarily with veneer and export log buyers.  There's one over around Havre de Grace, MD.

Gordon should be in a really good area to find them growing wild.  I once had a farm manager from Annapolis who said there were quite a few on the farms he managed on the Eastern shore.  

Hint:  look for purple flowers in the spring.  It also looks a lot like ailanthus.

[Jeff]

I read somewhere that the wood is valuable, but marketability is low, simply because of the small amount of trees marketable trees yet available. Does that make sense?

[Gordon]

This is a post from---Hugh Darty---that he put in my instant message box by mistake and told me to repost it on the main board, so here it is.

Hugh wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Japanese value the close growth rings because of the softer texture, fewer defects in the wood, and scaricity of that grade of wood. The close rings also signify high price which socially is like comparing my Mercedes to your Chevy. The wider ring paulownia is available from China at a cheap price, so it is more common in the poorer peoples homes.
Japanese tradition is for the bride and groom to buy Tansu, (not sure about the spelling) which is Japanese traditional "chest of drawers" for storing silk komona's and clothes. The fewer defects in the Tansu, the fewer defects in the marriage.
Paulownia also works and mills very well. It shrinks or swells very little with changes in humidity. A good Tansu will be built so precise that a drawer will pull a vacuum when opened, and pop out other drawers almost when closed.

Large diameter tight ring logs with few or no defects are very valuable, often being auctioned off to the highest bidder. The rich family of a Japanese bride will buy such a log and have the perfect Tansu made for a wedding gift, insuring a long and happy marriage with no defects.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh

[Don P]

Hugh, so how old is the high value log.How many rings per inch? Ron, sounds like you have them up there. I thought you were icier than us. How are they doing it. See I have this rolling creeping kinda hole appearing in my front yard that would benefit from a competative fast growing high value tree.Pretty flowers are a plus, as the locust have stopped blooming. Told Michelle about Jeffs experiment we have a bet on. She thinks they will periodically freeze back to the surface.

[Hugh Darty]

Paulownia logs are bought and sold by grade. The best logs are "double A" grade. They must be at least 16 inchs on small end with no knots or defects. Length must at least ten feet. The other grades from worst to best are E,D,C,B, and A. Growth rings in the better grades are at least four per inch.  A "AA" log should be a minimum of sixty four years, although I have sold thirty five year old trees for "AA" when market was right. The outer four inchs of rings are the most important. Center rings can be wider if outer rings are allright.

[Hugh Darty]

Back in my paulownia cutting and buying days, I would hire a plane or helicopter to fly me around in the spring to locate trees when they were blooming. They bloom out before most trees leaf out so the purplish blooms were easy to locate.

Ron, what is the buyers name you mentioned in your post? I knew most of the paulownia buyers in the past, may be an old friend. I had another friend in Virginia who you may know, also in the sawmill buisness, Mitch Carr. He was the first to sell Paulownia to the Japs. His companys name was Augusta Lumber.

[Jeff]

http://www.timberbuyer.net/700.swf
8)HEE HEE HEE!8)

[Ron Wenrich]

Don, We have scattered paulownia in the woods, very rare.  But, there are some used in landscaping.  One logger has planted a small plantation of paulownia.  It'll be interesting to see how things go.  

64 years for logs would yield a 16" log at 4 rings/inch.  That is too long for most people to speculate on a market that may evaporate before maturity.  If the Japanese don't buy, then there is a very limited market.  Now chestnut is a different story.

Hugh, I don't recall their name, but I don't think it is Augusta.  There is a German concern there that pays some pretty good prices for good veneer.  

There was also a guy in Rising Sun, MD.  He had a log yard in PA, close to the MD line.  I drove past and saw paulownia that had a bee's nest in it.  They were buying everything.  Markets have changed since then.  I believe his name was Greer.

We had some last year.  I can't tell you where they went, but they were sold.  I'll have to check.

[Hugh Darty]

I screwed up on the 64 years necessary for the best grade. It should be 32 years since you count rings on the outside of the heart, thus counting only eight inchs of wood on each side.

[L. Wakefield]

   So a lot of people are reporting this as a naturalized tree- I don't know where everyone lives. Do we now have a sense of its northern extent? Jeff, I thought you were in Michigan. I am wondering if it grows in WV. I am sure from the pix on that German website that I have not seen it before. It sounds like very good bee fodder. A useful tree to have around. If it's good wood, the market may not be here for the big bucks NOW, but good is good. Plant em. People will figure it out.

                 LW

[Jeff]

I do live In Michigan! Northern lower. Look at your map. Hold up your right hand, palm facing you, I live at the base of your middle finger, right next to the edge of your ring finger.

L. check out the links I listed in the first post of this thread.

http://www.pauloniatrees.org

http://www.paulownia.com

[L. Wakefield]

Yes, I already checked them out. Hey, did you know there was a stuck flag on the board? I can't remember which heading. One of the early ones, logging or education. It's been stuck for a few days. BTW, this is such an excellent website. You all just keep making it better.  LW

[Jeff]

I don't have a stuck flag, Are you using your back button on your browser? That will make the flags appear to be stuck. Let me know where it is if you see it again.

Thanks L. It's turning into what it is with the help of all of you. Now if I could get somebody with some money to notice and help me pay for my band width...

[Don P]

LW,
 Don't know where you are in WV but we have seen them on I-77 near the Kanawha riverside just a few scattered.

[Ron Wenrich]

I have seen a few in woodlots in SE Pa.  Naturalization would be from planted stock, which is primarily ornamental.  These were all pretty small.

Your best chance of seeing them would then be on suburban and possibly rural woodlots.  When you get into areas that have substantial forested areas, the chances would be less, since you're farther removed from a seed source.

I imagine there shouldn't be too much of a problem along the Atlantic seaboard.  As you increase in elevation, your chances are reduced.  Another factor may be soil conditions.  Our soil is pretty good in this area, and in SE Pa, it gets even better.

[Hugh Darty]

The place to find them is in areas where the soil has been disturbed in the past. Old surface mines, highway fills, and clayroots are prime place. One tree has a million seeds which are carried near and far by the wind, but they have to settle in just the right place to survive. Insects and nematoads love them, so an area with sterile soil conditions (burned brush piles from site prep are perfect) are the most likely places to find them. We see a lot of them in old barn drips also.

[Hugh Darty]

If anyone finds any of these trees, especially a large one, let me know. I still have contacts in Japan who might be interested.

[L. Wakefield]

Thanks, Don, for the info about paulownia by the Kanawha. I have my (fallow) farm in southern Ritchie county- not too far from the Little Kanawha, but closer to the Hughes river. It certainly has TREES- and my (non) management technique at present could easily include planting interesting species. This sounds like a worthwhile one.

BTW, as I approach 50 (born 9/5/51), I realize that some of what I start I will not see come to completion. So- why not plant trees? It's the same with kids- not likely you'll see the end of THAT story. My kids are grown, my animals as multiplying, but my trees are just getting started..
                        
                 LW

[Jeff]

The wonder is not always in the finished product.

I can't wait to see the earth move as the seed sprouts, or see the first set of leaves open. We might not see the maturity of a tree we plant, but what a shame, the next generation didn't see the birth.

[L. Wakefield]

one source of potential concern- check out www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/pato1.htm   .
   They seem to take the attitude that this is a very invasive species.

[Jeff]

I am not to concerned. I have read enough that the tree is already established in this country. I know of a couple specimens grown south of me as ornamentals. I would like to hear Hugh's take or some of the other southern guys what they think about the tree being an "alien pest".

[Hugh Darty]

Well, I'm not surprised by the government opinion. The government contact who wrote the opinion is located in the Great Smoky Mts. Park, and there are several of these trees scattered around Gatlinburg. If you gathered every Paulownia tree in the park up and figured the acreage they have "taken over" in the last 100 years there probably would be less than 20 acres total. If you figure that the park has mayby 1 million acres you can see the threat is enormous. Give the trees another million years and they will have the park taken over!

[Hugh Darty]

Correct that million years, calculator says fifty thousand years.

[Don P]

Multiflora, The Blight, there are some that claim these aren't mountains at all, merely hapless trucks that pulled over for a nap when the Kudzu covered them over. All introduced, the rule of thinking 7 generations down the line makes sense.
Gordon got me out the other morning, Thanks. Up the ridge over the cliff...There's a couple of Chestnuts still trying.

[Ron Wenrich]

Don:  Add russian olive to that list.

Hugh:  The place where we take our pawlownia is C D Miller.  The last few we had were growing in with oak, so had nice, tight rings.  But, the buyer that stops in that area hasn't come around lately.  Japanese economy have anything to do with that?  Or is there too much supply coming from the South?

[Hugh Darty]

Ron, I think the Japanese economy has something to do with it. I only know of one buyer working in the south right now. I have a few Japanese buyer friends that I haven't talked to in a year or two, I'll get the scoop and let yall know.

[Don P]

So do seeds develop to a zone or I guess acclimatize? Should Jeff be trying PA seeds also?

[Jeff]

I could not keep adequate track of the seed bed where it was in the skylight. So here is the new set up with a growlight.

[Gordon]

Jeff, the mirror on a ten foot stick got old quick.:D

Ron, I'll be looking for those flowers come spring. Now that I've got an idea what to look for. Quite an interesting tree. The down side to starting a large amout of them is an iffy market. But one never knows which way it will go.

How come this wood isn't used stateside for anything? Or are we looking at a major growth market in the future.
Gordon

[Ron Wenrich]

There just isn't any demand.  It is too soft for most furniture, but it might be decent for the carving crowd.

I doubt if there will be any demand generated in this country.  We go in cycles of ring porous and ring diffuse woods for our furniture, flooring, and trim.  We are now ending the oak phase and going back to the maple phase.  Pawlownia just doesn't seem to be in the cards.

European favorites have been mahogany for years.  Since they are rain forest trees, they have fallen out of favor.  They have switched over to cherry, and that is driving those markets.  

If the European crowd doesn't want pawlownia, I doubt we would either.  Just a gut feeling.

[Jeff]

03/07/2001
No sprouts yet...

[Hugh Darty]

Don, I really don't know if it would make any difference on where the seeds came from, but I doubt it. I'm sure our trees came here from the east coast, probably from seed from the same trees yours decended from.

[RavioliKid]

Jeff and Hugh, (and anyone else who is interested)

We planted our paulownia seeds today! The kids (my 17 third grade students) were absolutely amazed by the seeds. They couldn't believe how tiny they were. I put a few in small ziploc bags for them to pass around, and they were suitably impressed when I showed them pictures of the tree and the leaves on the internet. They were surprised about the small size of the seeds and the large size of the tree and leaves.

When I showed them the contents of the baggie Hugh had sent me, they just about flipped! I guess they didn't expect to see so many seeds - and that was just from a couple of pods. (I think - the pods got crushed in the mail, so it was hard to tell how many there were originally.)

I ended up going with a heated tray, which I got a Menards for less than $30. I put them in the sunniest spot I could. I might be getting a grow lamp next week.

I'll keep you posted.

Kim

[Jeff]

Aint it a hoot! Fun for not only third graders but thirty sumpthins too! Thanks Rav!

(I'm the thirty sumpthin, at least for a few months)

[Jeff]

Hey Sawtooth 11 days and no sign of life yet, when should I worry? I have them right where they can be easily checked. I have a spray bottle that if I go by and the top of the planting soil looks dry, I give it a mist. Any other specifics you can think of for success? The grow light I leave on for about 16 hours a day.

[Hugh Darty]

Give them another week. They are very succeptible to the smallest variance in their environment. Back in the early eighty's, when no one much had any info on growing Paulownia I was told by the Tenn. Forestry Commission that you could not grow them from seed. They reccommended root cuttings from larger trees.
I tried several different methods before having success. In the past I grew my seeds outdoors.
If yours fail and mine make it I'll send you some plants, even if I have to grow them another batch outside.

But don't give up, we'll try another approach if yours don't sprout. Michigan and Alabama are totally diferent climates, you are a month or more behind me, so you have plenty of time before transplant time.

[Jeff]

HEYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I got Sprouts!!!!!!!! 2 in fact, no digital camera tonight, Tammy has it at a volleyball game. I got sprow-owts! 8)(or weeds.. :'()

[Hugh Darty]

Great! I was beginning to wonder. I think mine have been contaiminated by a fungus, so I'll probably have to re-do them. I'll give them a few more days, mine are a week or two behind yours.

[Jeff]

I now have three tiny sprouts. I am sure now that they are paulonia, as the last tiny sprout has a seed husk stuck to it. Here is a pic of the first one, just barely big enough for my camera to see!

[RavioliKid]

Way to go, Sprout-man!

I'll check mine and get back to you next week.

[Jeff]

I hope to soon becomePLANT MAN!

With 73 planting compartments each having 4 to 6 seeds, I think I need more then 3 sprouts to have a chance at getting a plant to "outdoor size" I may have to take Hugh up on his over to send plants!

[RavioliKid]

We have sprouts!

Lots and lots of sprouts!

Not all the cells have sprouts, but there are a good number of them.

The must have sprouted over the weekend, as there wasn't anything there when I left school on Friday.

They look so tiny and insignificant!

I wish I knew how to post a picture!

[Jeff]

Hey, that aint fair! I still only have 4. Rav, please leave me a detailed discription of what you used for soil, watering, what ever , so I can start my other flat. Did you use potting soil? or a seed mix? Thanks!!! Do you have a scanner at school? If not send me some pics snail mail if you like and I will post them for your class.

[Bill Johnson]

Looks like your hopes of becoming the plant guy maybe in danger of falling to the grade 3 pupils. :D

[Jeff]

Ok. Thats enough out of the guy that can only grow lichens he's so far north... ;)

[Hugh Darty]

 :)Glad to hear the good news Rav! Which ones are sprouting, Tomentosa or Elongota? Mine were overcome by a green fungus, peat moss was old and must have been contaminated. I'm going to start a new batch in a day or so with a different soil base.
 Did both flats sprout? Bet the heated one did.

[RavioliKid]

Jeff,

I used a mixture of "soil" for starting seeds. I picked it up right by where I found the heated flat. It cost about $2.50 for a gallon or two. I used about half of it.

I filled up the flat to figure out how much growing medium I needed - and also because I forgot - and then dumped it into a bucket and mixed it up with water until it felt uniformly moistened - but not soggy.

The flat I used looks the same size as the one in your picture. I also kept the clear plastic cover on it to hold in the moisture.

Hugh -

I didn't try sprouting them in the unheated tray. Do you think I should get some light on them? Will they grow too spindly with the diffuse daylight they are getting?

[RavioliKid]

Hugh-

I did the tomentosa seeds first.

I can't wait to get my class back from the student teacher so I can do some stuff with the kids!

[Hugh Darty]

Kim,
They can't stand much direct sunlight for a couple weeks. I would guess they need about 70% light, or about the same as in the shadow of another tree. They will begin grow in a couple of weeks, then they can have full light. Be sure and mist them a couple times a day. I would give them a very light dose of liquid fertilizer in a few days, mayby trying it on only a few of them first. :D

[Jeff]

I started a new flat of seeds. The first flat produced a total of 8 sprouts, 3 of which have died. This time my flat is more climate controlled with a clear dome top. Hopefully it will keep the moisture more of a constant. I also think the heavy peat planting mix was not a wise choice to start the first seeds. This time I am using miracle grow potting soil. Time will tell.

[Hugh Darty]

 :)Jeff, I think the key is having a warm sterile soil. Kims heated tray is the best way to go. My seeds were killed by a green fungus which was in my potting soil, and the clear plastic cover didn't help the seeds, but probably created the perfect environment for the fungus.
I'm starting a new tray, with differnt soil, probably ash and soil from a fresh burned windrow, that way I know for certain it is sterile. I'll also scatter some seeds in the burned windrow, that way if my flat fails I'll have backups.

[RavioliKid]

Well, some of my sprouts are doing well. The ones that are doing the best have many sprouts in the same cell. Every day, it seems as if there are more of them that have given up the ghost - just kind of withered away and dead. I mist them two or three times a day. I decided to leave the clear top off for a few hours tonight, just to make sure they were getting enough air.

Does anyone have an idea how long I should leave them in the heated tray? I'm going to give a few of them some Miracle Gro tomorrow. We'll see if that helps.

Incidentally, they are about 1 inch tall now.

[Jeff]

Rav, that's what mine were doing, one by one they shriveled and died. I went out and bought a heated tray system too.

The Instructions with mine say to remove the tray from the heat, and remove the dome as soon as all the seeds have sprouted. Then place in a sunny location. (or 70% sun like sawtooth mentioned.

My new tray was planted Saturday

[Hugh Darty]

Kim, I think the clear lid may be keeping them too moist. I would try it a day or so without it, and see what happens. They need light and warmth to grow, I would keep them in the heatet tray if the room temperature drops under 72 degree F.
I would also look for a babysitter for them during spring break, would be nice if someone had a greenhouse to keep them in.

[RavioliKid]

Hugh,

I am going to take the seedlings home for the break. I'll keep the lid off for a few days and see how things go.

I have a friend coming in to feed the cat for the few days we'll be gone, so I'll have her look after them. Or, maybe my student teacher will take them home.

Thanks!

[Jeff]

This is only the sixth day since I planted the 2nd flat of Paulonia. This morning I woke up to 37 sprouts! But there is one other growth in 2 of the cells. Some sort of white colored mold or fungus.

Does any body have an idea of what I could use in my spritz bottle as a fungacide?

[RavioliKid]

Jeff,

I don't know what sort of fungicide to use, but I would be interested in the answer.

Are you planning to keep the cover on your seed tray? I have been taking mine off during the day, but covering up at night. I still have it plugged in, but it seems awfully warm. I'm going to go unplug it right now.

I spritz it a couple times a day, and rotate the flat to try to keep the trees growing upright.

Does anyone have any idea whether rotating the flat is useful or not? I can't imagine that "real tree growers" do it.

Good luck!

[Jeff]

Does any body Know the name of the guy you see on pbs. Jerry something or other. He always has home gardening remedies made out of household items. I am thinking he is galled the greengardener. maybe I will try looking for that.

I took my top off as soon as I saw the fungus. What I did not say is that I planted two of the segments with Tomato seeds. That warming tray sure fired them off. I had sprouts in 3 days and had to remove the plants this morning because they were hitting the top already! I have them in our kitchen window that faces south.

My Dad always started his seeds in doors, and always rotated his plants, just as my mom still does with her nouse plants.

[Jeff]

It seems the fungas may be whats called Damping odd Disease. I found this link about starting seeds indoors. It covers information about light, moisture, and our question on when to remove the cover on the plants.

http://www.gardenweb.com/sesbania/startsds.html

I also came across 2 references to mold treatments, but neither had any specifics. One mentioned lysol, the other was sulpher dust. The sulpher dust reminded me that my dad use to break the heads off matches and scatter in his starting bed. I bet now that was why. Off to find some kitchen matches!

[Ron Wenrich]

Rotating the flats will help make seedlings grow straighter.  They will always grow towards the light.  If you are using a direct, overhead light, then rotation wouldn't be as necessary.

[Don P]

 I consulted the green thumb here. Horsetail tea is the organic fungicide, Banrot the listed chemical for damp off. Did you sterilize everything between batches? Have you ever seen capillary mat that sits in a water tray then your styro block tray sits on that, moist root, dry top.
8)Well, I had to try! Hey where's his moonwalking silver glove   :D

[Jeff]

I didn't know you could do that!!

[Bill Johnson]

Jeff

I think the guy on PBS you are referring to is Jerry Baker the master gardener. If I recall correctly he has a website www.jerrybaker.com.

Good luck

[RavioliKid]

I am taking my flat of seedlings back to school today. (I wish I were still in bed! ???)

About a week ago, I had another round of seeds sprout - must've been ones that didn't get started with the rest of them, as I didn't sow more.

So, I have about half the flat with some 2 inch tall "babies" and about a quarter with itsy-bitsy newborns, and the rest of the cells have nothing.

At what point do I do more than keep them watered? Should I thin out the cells yet? Transplant? Sell the logging rights to my "forest"?
 :D :D :D :D

[glow=color,strength,width]Help![/glow]

[Bill Johnson]

So Jeff how is your crop coming along are they nearly ready to harvest?
I see that Raviolikid is practicing uneven-aged forest management.  :D

Bill

[Hugh Darty]

Kim, how wide are your leaves? You can transplant some of the plants that are more than one tree to the cell to the empty cells. I would try this on a couple first and give them a day or so, then do the rest if the others do allright. If your leaves are a half inch or more across they can use more direct sunlight and some liquid fertilizer.
Post or send us some pictures, need to see some pictures of my "babies".
I'll have bloom pictures in the next few days, blooms are about three-quarters open now.  :D

[Jeff]

This Thread has become to long to load making it hard to post a new message. I am closing it and continuing it on a new thread called Something big 2