The Forestry Forum

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about a Weinig PFA22N foursider, there is one for sale that is not too far away for what looks like a reasonable price. Manufactured in Germany 1975, 7 heads, weighs about 4 tons.

It has been in dry storage for the last 5 years and will need a tidy up, surface rust etc. Seller claims it was running fine before pulled from service.

Seems like a pretty wild thing to be buying for a guy with a home built manual mill but, construction materials are in a shortage here. I got rid of all my black walnut and I've come into another decent stack of logs, I'm thinking this would be a good way to get rid of it.

Is it worth a look?


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What does it have for electric motors? Would you need a converter? I recall us putting in a big Robinson merry go round bandsaw resaw made in Europe, and it had to have all sorts of electrical considerations to run.

I think I'd would want power company supplied 3 phase for something that size. Is the height x width in a range that will be useful later? From the looks I don't see gleaming welds and breaks. It looks like something blew up in the front left head but that is just a dust hood.

We did get an Italian SCMI 5 head machine that was motored for 50 HZ, we run 60. The factory actually caught it, probably a year or so in and remotored it. The tech said it would cause overheating problems, so something to look for although if it has run that long there it must be correct.

You'll need some serious suction.

He did mention the current ratings of the 4x three phase motors. I coughed up and got a 3 phase service to my new shed, it will run it.

Providing it's all serviceable, is it a silly idea? If I was going to go down this hole would it be more sensible to buy something newer/lighter. Has the technology changed much in 45 years?

I would run away from that 4 ton monster and go with smaller that matched my production.  Something you can move out of your way instead of taking up space.  That machine would take serious logistics to move and a big operational footprint inside a building.

Heavy iron will run long and strong. The footprint of either machine is about the same when you include the work area supporting it. If the price is right I'd rather have the beast.

It's all manual setup rather than computer controls, setups take longer and are only as accurate as you are. I wouldn't have to call a teenager to get that old girl to talk to me  :D.

Yeah good point.  My production on a manual mill is minimal and I thought his would be similar.  Come get my Lane to match up to that machine.  :D

I have a spindle moulder with power feed and decent thicknesser that I'm about to put a carbide rotor on, I could do the work with those two machines, a bit more effort but minimal footprint and capitol.

A machine like that would go in its own shelter, I'd say. I don't have shed space for it. He's asking 9k NZ, ~6k US. Pretty good for the island we are. Haven't seen this sort of stuff come up here too often

I have never owned or operate3d one but during the 20 years with OR-OSHA I saw and inspected a few and I would say if you have the room and power supply purchase the indestructible beast. several of the older moulder/planers were much older, 1920's or 30's and still running production, hopefully you get the cutter sharpener machines and extra sets of cutters/blades. what a heavy duty production monster.

Rambles, what has gotten me thinking about that "entire footprint" comment is the farm museum where I've been working was donated a very old 3 sided machine, I'd guess turn of the century. The family said they would donate a building for it and would like for it to run. It comes from the generation before the oldest ones I've ever seen, and I have a '27 Vonnegut boat anchor and have run a 1904 single sided planer, instead of OSHA its what we call the Oh Sh..! period of the industrial revolution, hopefully it'll be used for very short runs. I'm a bystander thus far but I suspect they are looking at the footprint of the machine where I'm thinking the footprint of the work area. Stuff like that takes some room.

If it's 4m long and you're putting 5m lengths through it, there's 14m at a minimum  8).

I'd have to pull some more kiwifruit out, but I'm gonna do that anyway at some point. Darn things always blocking my shed and lean-to builds

I would research if you have somewhere that you can get the knives for it before you buy it. With most of these machines they will run and produce a great product. They aren't as user friendly as the newer machines but don't cost as much. You will end up with more money in knives and profiles than you have in the machine. After you learn the machine you will figure out ways to make the set up easier and faster.

I've shared this video earlier this summer. Not sure if it's the same
Model you are looking at. This belongs to member "Teenswinger"... unless he changed his name. He's a full grown man now. 😄

https://youtu.be/hneJjbh0esQ (https://youtu.be/hneJjbh0esQ)

He's running this off a generator. 

orright... look it's like this. That machine is a good machine if its in going order and the things are (a) built to last forever and (b) eminently rebuildable. It's also 70's vintage which is actually pretty good: you dodge the early digital stuff for mechanical systems, and dodge the older mechanical systems as well.

Go check you power requirements again, cuz a 7 header pulls a lot of amperage. Having 3 phase and having enough juice to run big bertha there are two different things... wire sizes and transformer sizes etc etc, and you dont want to be installing 9xVFD's to get her to run. ( 7 heads +feed+ blower)

It's way too much machine for a sawmill... but thats ok, better too big than too small and armed with that old doll I could feed in bananas and get out straight wood in a single pass.

Find out if its got a groove bed - it may have. One of them ideas that works well in presurfaced timbers but not so perfect in roughsawn.

Where are the knives? Tooling included or tooling unavailable would be a huge consideration in buying that machine.


Lastly Imma share one of the best bits of advice I've ever received, and you need to think real hard about this before you buy any older machine, shared with me by a guy whos been there when I was starting up: " I've owned all those old Robinsons and Stetsons and antique bits of crap and I'm telling you don't go there. You're better off buying the $100k machine that can be run by a monkey than you are buying the $10k machine that needs a $100k a year man to run it"

If she was within 500 mile of me I'd be looking at it, but also figuring the payments out on a new Fullpower or similar.

I'll avoid taking on any staff with the timber side of things. NZ has made it too difficult to employ people to do this sort of work which is a shame, I reckon I have a job to offer already.

So it would just be me. Wouldn't get run all day every day, a day or two session not even once a month I guess. In that regard, I'm not getting much back on the investment so it's only going to make sense if a bargain comes along

@JoshNZ (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173)  Have you bought the moulder? I would a have jumped all over this gem.

I'm doing sidings and decks with a jointer and planer all by hand, ughhh. that thing would boost up my production at least a 1000%

I haven't bought it but haven't decided I won't yet. It's not exactly a machine you wheel out of the corner of your shed to do a wee job on and tuck back away out of sight again. Would require some space, setup and commitment haha.

I figured I would need a diesel generator next to it, whoever mentioned it above was right I don't have the copper pipe to feed it. 9 motors it is, 400V 75A draw total I think I worked out, if you managed to stall all 9 motors. It would cruise at less than that.

I went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen... So a 40kVA generator and this machine actually seem quite reasonable in comparison, but then with what the local timber machinist charges it'd be 30 odd kilometres of boards before it started to pay anything, in comparison. I'm waiting on a call back from the seller about tooling, they're machinists themselves so hopefully he'll have an idea.

My partner and I are talking about taking the next leap in this industry, everything is aligned well for a timber supplier at the moment in NZ. My bigger priority at the moment is to build a new bed for the mill with hydraulics, that's my real bottle neck. Not the speed I can mill at but the 2-3 days I don't want to look at it again for, after one big day on it lol.

I do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen

how much? 80k?

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

I have a single spindle moulder but no infeed (sold the infeed 5 years ago, never used it) but still, for TYG i need to do 2 pases, change knifes and thats after making 6 pases on the jointer and planer just to get a S4S board. It's not that i have a huge production operation but sales have picked up and with a almost endless supply of my own teakwood i'm certain that in the future production has to be quicker. i even see a sale in the US, i could produce a container load of deck boards or whatever the market needs, just haven't found anybody interested in selling the timber up there.

I also work alone, so a huge amount of my time is wasted in moving timber from on area to another, feed them by hand thru the machines, then move the timber again and again,.... a forklift would be a wise investment also

Quote from: teakwood on December 19, 2021, 07:57:18 AM

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen

how much? 80k?

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

I have a single spindle moulder but no infeed (sold the infeed 5 years ago, never used it) but still, for TYG i need to do 2 pases, change knifes and thats after making 6 pases on the jointer and planer just to get a S4S board. It's not that i have a huge production operation but sales have picked up and with a almost endless supply of my own teakwood i'm certain that in the future production has to be quicker. i even see a sale in the US, i could produce a container load of deck boards or whatever the market needs, just haven't found anybody interested in selling the timber up there.

I also work alone, so a huge amount of my time is wasted in moving timber from on area to another, feed them by hand thru the machines, then move the timber again and again,.... a forklift would be a wise investment also

Calling Mr. Yellowhammer!!!!!!!!!!

Try $177k, that was for the cube. The profimat was more again. Salesman seemed to think the cube wouldn't take moulding knives, square edges only.

That's NZ dollars, $119k US. Everything here is a bit silly at the moment though, some of the freight costs for things are laughable.

Yep I hear ya teak, if you're getting into selling material products rather than raw timber you def want something to speed things up. I'm solo as well and want it to stay that way.

That Cube is a LOT of money for not much machine, IMHO.

I priced up moulders about 5 or 6 years ago... a 5 head profimat was about $170k AUD, a 6 head Fullpower about $110k AUD back then. Fullpower are the most common moulder I see getting around the place... they make a good machine and while Weinig have earnt their reputation as the BMW of moulders it's hard to justify the price unless you've got a lot of work for it.

I think you've got to do a bit of crystal ball gazing here about where you think you're going to go, and invest your money where it's going to make the most return.

So when I was looking for a moulder I had (still have) a really solid little thicknesser and a straight line rip and a jointer... that was my drymill equipment. Mostly I was selling GOS hardwood framing and a bit of KD cabinet timber and my want for a moulder was because I wanted to be able to size ( but not DAR) my framing as thats become a pretty common standard here rather than straight rough sawn. So I'm crunching the numbers on new machines and also looking for a bargain for a while, and piling up a whole heap of feedstock for decking while I do it so when I buy and install I'll get my $ back fast.

Things happen, change of wholesale customer, next thing you know I'm supplying a guy who only wants rough sawn because he's got a 5 header and a 6 header... and he'll also run my wood at a price that's not cheap... but cheap enough. And of course the joy of that deal was that I didn't have to buy the machine, maintain the machine, or even feed the machine because he's got machinists on staff to do alla that. All I've got to do is send my stuff on the truck with his order and pick it up next week when I deliver his next order. That works okay for a bit but I keep on looking and then I found the right machine for me. 

I wound up with an old shortbed 4 sider, which turned out to be exactly the machine I needed. They aren't really common anymore, to my knowledge the only manufacturer still making then is REX (and if you think Weinig is expensive you aint even close) ... front like YH's carpet planer with a pair of opposing vertical heads at the back. I can't do complex moulding like a moulder can... I can do things with the vertical spindles for pencil round, VJ, shiplap, T&G etc but the top and bottom heads are limited to straight knives only... but I can joint into the first bottom head, and because my vertical heads are directly opposing I can not only size but actually cut a fair bit of spring out of bent boards as well, and she can open up to drag half ton bits of wood through well beyond the capacity of any moulder mere mortals can afford. So I size and DAR my framing as required, get real flat boards in my cabinet timbers, run my own decking or T&G in "house size" runs... and farm anything complex like custom architrave or big bulk jobs out to someone with a moulder which is like a fraction of my machining needs each year.

I was looking for a moulder because moulders were the machine I saw everywhere I went. Turns out it wasn't what I needed. YH runs that carpet planer, I kind of remember he was thinking moulder then he found something that worked better for his business. What I'm not saying is don't buy a moulder, and yanno that big girl you're looking at is a lot of moulder and will still be going when we're dead. But I am saying think real hard before you leap because she won't be easy to resell for the same reasons you're thinking it over.

Very interesting post LL, and i'm spending hours researching and reading and it's kinda hard to come up with such good info as yours, so i really appreciate it.

I started sawing timber 3 years ago when the hindu buyers decided that teak is worth half the price now than before 2019, first i did rafters, sold a few but not much, then a guy told me make 1 and 2" boards for carpenters and that sold better, so this year i sold 60k in wood, 90% planed wood and some of them with TyG. I also sold like 20k in panels which i all fabricate manually, need glue line quality after planing. for the paneling YH double sider would be king for this kind of work but way too expensive for me.

So tell me, which machine would suit me best? because my knowledge of moulders is like 0. 
I have a small 20" planer, jointer and single spindle moulder, and 10% of my sales are raw wood, 80% is S4S timber and 10% is with some profile (i can grow this sales with a more productive machine)

I didn't even knew what a REX is, had to look it up. I know a moulder is limited with it's capacity of 6-8" wide and most are just 4" height, so i can not pas a 5x5 or 6x6 post. i can do beams 4x6


or am i off with my theory?   

@longtime lurker (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=22746) 

another question: on a 4 or 5 head weinig/scmi i know i can infeed bananas and get straight pieces out but, can i infeed bananas and get bananas or halfbananas out? This is very important for me, teak is to expensive to be able to plane off 1/4" on 4 sides. when i sell decking it doesn't matter if they are bowed on the flat side, on the wide side they should be straight. 
so, for 24mm thick deck boards i start with 28-30mm thick boards, so thats 2-3mm each side
 

A lot of it depends on how much curve the banana has. If it is slight than most machines can straiten it some. If it is bad going in it will be a little better coming out but still not good. That is why they make SLR machines. 

For bow an old push feed machine will smash the board flat to the bed and feed vs a modern feed through machine with lighter feed pressure that tries to face the board. For crook, you pretty much need straight stock going in, it'll do it to an extent but those are sticks I'd probably reject on the receiving end.

I've only run a little teak, do you have to run carbide or can you keep HSS sharp for long enough to work?

The machine I would be looking at very closely is a Pinheiro 4 head independent planer molder.  The place that planes a 25 foot flat bed trailer of my lumber every week uses a 24" planer molder, just using the top and bottom head, and it does an excellent job.  They use is every day, 8 hours a day, and I asked them about its reliability, and they told me it breaks down about one every 10 years, but it's been longer since the last breakdown.  It's footprint is about the same as my big carpet planer, which is very manageable.  

These are older units, and they come up used occasionally.  Parts are still made for them.

It will also run miles and miles of flooring, siding, shiplap, whatever, and it is also big enough to surface timbers, which they use it for, also.  The cutter heads run independently, and its really two machines in one.  A mega 24" planer and a very accurate although powerful molder.  Here's a video of one, notice how its footprint is smaller than the smaller machine next to it.

Used prices are in the range of $30K to $80K.  It more expensive than your target price, but lots less money than some other options, however, it will last forever.  Two mega machines in one with a relatively small footprint.  I've not seen the funky indeed and outfield tables they use in the video, most times people just use basic roller tables.  

Customsawyer has one also, and I don't think he is disappointed in it.  

Here's a video I found.

Foursided Pinheiro Planer and milling machine - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWimB0I077o)

 

That's just like mine except I use different infeed and outfeed tables. The only thing I don't really like about mine is that you have to use a sticker at the end of a run to get the last board out. Small price to pay. It has several good points. I can 4 side up to about 18" wide and 7.5" thick. It will 2 side up to 24" wide. It really doesn't care how much you want to take off of each side. I was running some 1.25x7.25x16 material and finishing it at .75x6x16. The machine just didn't care. I ran more than 25000 bf of it in a couple of days. It will just sit there and eat. I'm working off of a bad memory but I think I gave about 24K for mine 6 years ago. It is a '97 model and just keeps running. Only had a couple of repairs to do to it. Both repairs was to the motor for the top head due to mice in the wiring and shorting things out. Hard to put the smoke back in them.

Quote from: Don P on December 24, 2021, 07:18:43 AM
For bow an old push feed machine will smash the board flat to the bed and feed vs a modern feed through machine with lighter feed pressure that tries to face the board. For crook, you pretty much need straight stock going in, it'll do it to an extent but those are sticks I'd probably reject on the receiving end.

I've only run a little teak, do you have to run carbide or can you keep HSS sharp for long enough to work?

That's exactly what i need, i don't have much crook, it will be joint and planed away on a 4 sider. the bow is mostly slight but sometimes they pretty bowed, so thats good to hear that with enough pressure it will flatten the board and out comes the banana again but with less curve.
100% all carbide for teak, that's why i'm interested in helical heads with carbide inserts for this machines

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 24, 2021, 08:28:54 AMUsed prices are in the range of $30K to $80K

that's way out of my price range, i also need to invest in 3 phase power or a rotary, shipping and right now i'm looking at forklifts

I was thinking the same thing this morning. Several log home companies run them. What drove that out of budget is something you said, the ability to plane timbers.

Is there enough market to justify a machine that was limited to smaller dimensions. A decking size machine is better than no machine. In other words, where's the bread and butter work coming from. It sounds like decking. That may be worth a dedicated machine that due to its increased capacity will finance the next one.

I'm not a wood machinist by trade but I've been around this type of equipment enough to understand the basic divisions between classes.

That Pinheiro is what I would call a "short bed moulder" although I often see them referred to as a "4 sider". Mine is fundamentally the same style of machine. Short beds all share a couple of characteristics... the vertical heads tend to be directly opposite each other at the back, the top and bottom heads are relatively close together (usually bottom head first), they tend to be push feed,  and they have a quite compact footprint. A lot of them can do wider/deeper boards than a regular moulder.

A regular moulder has the heads spaced linearly so are bigger and are through feed... by having a horizontal head at the back it helps pull the workpiece through. More heads can be better... less material moved by any given head means a better level of finish.

In my opinion a shortbed is a better machine for a sawmill. You can handle bigger bits of wood for DAR type work. And the opposing heads at the back mean the workpiece can't skip sideways so you can straighten a little better. Mine has a fence goes through to the right vertical head, so I can hog off a fair bit of wood on and the workpiece is basicly captive to a point... it'll straighten a lot more than a long bed moulder but there are limits before it starts pushing it across to the left head.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/IMG_20211225_125138_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640404952)
 

(Don't mind the surface rust its an old picture)

Up the road from me a couple hours theres a business runs a 5 header through feed type (long bed) and it comes setup with a saw on the infeed to edge/straight line rip between the first pressure roller and the first head... that setup is better again than mine.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/IMG_20211225_140146_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640404949)
 

I've also got a row of variable pressure fingers across the top above the bottom head... same setup as YH's carpet planer just less of them... and a short jointer style table ahead of the bottom head thats good at removing cup.

Now if I had a business where I was doing a large volume of flooring/decking/ship lap/ those type of profiles and or staying away from wide boards and beams I would ditch this old beast tomorrow for this one:

Used 1995 wadkin Wadkin GD 700 5 head moulding machine FourSider Moulders in gielston bay, TAS (https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/Wadkin-GD-700-5-head-moulding-machine/757910/)

If you can accept the limitations of only being able to go 9"/220mm wide that machine with that big long jointer bed in front of it is a hell of a good thing.

Pinheiro tend to run bigger motors on the feed/top/bottom than my old beast and are more suited to big beams than mine... always remembering that 2 passes through a 4 header makes for an 8 header, kinda sorta.

There's a lot of options out there, and here at least short bed moulders are not in demand and you tend to get a lot of machine for the price. I paid $6k for mine with the blower thrown in, and literally I polished the bed and hooked the power up and away she went. We spent about $12k on a refit for her 3 years back and it'll probably run for another 10 years before the next refit, I don't really see why it won't run forever with maintenance

And I often wonder about a 5 head PH365 logosol. It won't handle big wood but it seems to be good value for money. New with warranty is never a bad thing.

LL first off what are you referring to when you say DAR?
That Wadkin you posted looks a lot like my buddies SCMI 5 head machine. It does really well. Just has the limit of 9".

DAR is dressed all round. 

The other one we do a lot of is "sized", meaning the edges are dressed but the faces stay rough sawn, that's become a default standard here with framing hardwood for rafters joists and bearers, just makes everything in the package a uniform size in the critical dimension for construction and theoretically straightens them some when you do it. I just use the back heads for that, running wet wood over a cast iron bed in one of the wettest places in the world is an ongoing headache but that's the job. I've never seen a board edger in a mill here but that should do the same job... on my one day list of toys to acquire. ;D

Mostly we use hardwood unseasoned/ green for construction so variable shrinkage rates can change it all around but anyway it makes for faster building so the builders like it, and even if I know it's sorta money wasted long term I'm happy enough to change them for the service because the big mills do it so we have to to remain competitive.

SCM 5 or 6 headers are the most common moulder I see sold new here, good machines and the digital sizing makes them super user friendly. I'm assuming SCMI is the same company. The Taiwanese machines sell for about half the cost of a Weinig and at the end of the day that's a lot of money saved unless you run the thing all day every day.

Back to the same old thing Jake, everything is a trade off. The large end section capacity of what I have is more valuable to me than faster decking production from a  smaller through feed machine, and I am just not big enough to justify both.

SCM and SCMI are the same. I've had a couple of their machines. A 24" single head planer that I sold when I bought the Cantek 30" double head carpet planer. I still have the 20" jointer. The thing I liked about SCM is I didn't have to adjust them when installed. Most new machines require a little tweaking to get them dialed in but not the SCM. It was just plug and play.

thanks for all the good info guys

Quote from: longtime lurker on December 24, 2021, 11:09:38 PMIf you can accept the limitations of only being able to go 9"/220mm wide that machine with that big long jointer bed in front of it is a hell of a good thing.

that's what most of my work is. i also make paneling and need to 2 side plan them after the glue hardened, but for that a 25" single side planer is enough or i buy a 2 sider like YH has in the future.
nobody answered a important question for me: can i get a glue line quality out of a 4 or 5 header Weinig? if i feed fairly straight timber in? without snipe?

it's hard to find a good moulder in the US or i haven't found any good sites, everything is 15k +. but dang are they laying around in europe for 4-8k euros, very good maintained machines

https://www.maschinensucher.de/main/search?categoryId=858&machineType=&manufacturer=&model=&description=&yearOfManufactureFrom=&yearOfManufactureTo=&condition=&serialNumber=&imagesRequired=&videoRequired=&forRent=&auction=&buyNow=&listingId=&referenceNumber=&priceFrom=&priceTo=8000&seller=&customerNumber=

You will need a jointer for a glue line edge. If you went with a machine like the Pinhero 800 it can plane up to 24" when you remove the fences and put the side heads all the way out.

I ran a 5 head throughfeed SCMI in one cabinet/millwork shop. We had a glue jointer for random width panel glueup, 
in another shop we used SLR's, Straight Line Rip saws.
We used a wide belt sander behind it and then crosscut and rip the panels. If the pieces were even sized I did glueline 
prep on the molder for edge and for butcherblock, face glueups. I would set up sharp with moderately slow feeds and watch for nicks.
Snipe was an issue for me, you can play with hold downs but for what we were doing it was easier to lose a few inches at 
each end. 

Quote from: longtime lurker on December 25, 2021, 06:08:57 AMSCM 5 or 6 headers are the most common moulder I see sold new here, good machines and the digital sizing makes them super user friendly. I'm assuming SCMI is the same company. The Taiwanese machines sell for about half the cost of a Weinig and at the end of the day that's a lot of money saved unless you run the thing all day every day.

No digital for me, i live in the tropics, way to wet here for this machines, i already have troubles to plan dry timber with the beds always getting surface rust. need year 1975-2000 on a moulder, i don't care if i last longer to adjust them manually. My idea is to build a small room around the machine (everything will be inside my big shed where i dry the wood, has a roof but it's more or less open on the sides), so it will be a small room with a roof made out of wood and on the flat roof i can storage more timber to dry. will make two doors on the left and right where the lumber enters and leaves the machine. when not in use close the doors and the little room will be sealed against the weather. can i hand some light bulbs inside the room and have like a dry storage for the machine and tooling?? that's the theory, or do i need a air dryer? 

Quote from: Don P on December 25, 2021, 07:36:43 AMWe had a glue jointer for random width panel glueup,

on the moulder? or the glue jointer was a separate machine?

Quote from: Don P on December 25, 2021, 07:36:43 AMIf the pieces were even sized I did glueline  prep on the molder for edge and for butcherblock, face glueups

i don't understand, if the pieces lets say where 5" wide you passed them thru the molder and could glue them together making a panel?  what do you mean with "edge"

TW you might have mentioned this before but how long of pieces are you trying to glue up? My Pinhero has 3 large infeed rollers so it can deal with a fair amount of cup in a board. The trouble is that on some pieces the cup can come back on the exit. If the cup is minimal it comes out pretty good. I was referring to bow when I said you would need a jointer or SLR.

i make panels up to 8' long, but most are shorter

I remembered the warp picture here for a good reference when it gets to semantics.
Methods of reducing warp when drying (fs.fed.us) (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1983/simps83a.pdf)

A glue jointer or SLR will remove crook but not bow.
Edge gluing is joining the pieces together edge to edge, the narrow sides are glued together. Removing crook is essential.
Face gluing is joining the wide faces together as in a butcherblock. Removing cup is essential.
A throughfeed machine that is jointing the face (or an old school facer) works well.
A hard squashing feed doesn't do a good job removing cup. It smashes the cupped board flat to the bed,
dimensions to that reference, then the board springs back to some degree of cup when it exits the machine.
"Planer check" or "Roller check" are the result of putting a heavily cupped board through a high pressure feed.
There are not hard lines as you go through which machine does what best. Hopefully what we're doing is giving the ranges
of capabilities and you need to sort through the real scope of work. I wish there was a do-all machine. and cheap  :D.

The SCMI machine I ran was one of the first and smallest throughfeed machines.
IMO it was on the lightweight side. I fed in a stick of tapered, over thick wood at one point and stripped the jack screws.
From then on I presurfaced everything with the planer adding another step.  
On any lighter fabricated machine this would be essential, and good practice on anything.
Time rules some days. If I have to baby something, I'm gonna break it.
I saw one years later go for about $1500 and thought about it but knew it would probably require a complete rebuild.
I'm pretty sure the old push feed would have either stopped feeding or the feed wheels would have slowly ground the thickness off.
It was a dream to set up the SCMI vs the old school machines. I could usually change tooling and be running again in 30 minutes
or so vs hours with the old ones. But the old 10 ton machines were beasts.

I think that when making decisions about this equipment you need to ask yourself what is the ideal solution and what can you live with as a workable affordable solution.

We're all in the same industry but our businesses are each individual and what machine best meets our needs is going to vary from one to the next. Josh started this thread with questions about a 7 head through feed moulder and in truth if I had the cash laying about to buy one and install one and the work to justify it I'd possibly buy it. In a lot of ways it's too much machine for what I do but one thing I've learnt is that mostly when I have a machine that at some point I'll use it to capacity and also that generally speaking having too much machine beats having not enough machine.

The secret to being small and viable - or one of them - is definitely to value add everything you can as much as the customer will pay. It doesn't just make the product more profitable it makes it more saleable, assuming you have the volume to meet the payments on the equipment. Another is to understand the value of time: when you reach a point where you spend as much of your time value adding in the drymill as producing the raw material in the greenmill then it's definitely time to start looking at how to speed things up somewhere in the system. Add another point to the list of secrets to being small and viable and that would be that it's better to buy a good machine than hire more staff as a way to increase production. People think I'm nuts for looking at higher capacity equipment but I know that in my own business having machinery that produces fast means I run that particular machine for less time which frees my available manpower up for other tasks. (Or as I tried to explain to a sales guy a while back I didn't think a $100k gangsaw was expensive because thats about 18 months wages for a man making one board at a time)

It's also got to be affordable and with the cost of new machines... well most of us buy second hand because that's all we can justify. And that's also beneficial because there are some real gems floating around that are out of production today but maybe, just maybe, suit our particular businesses better than a new machine. And they'll give us capacity better suited to the needs of our individual businesses without all the bells and whistles of a new machine at a fraction of the price. The simple truth being that  -rationalisations and optimisations - there is less diversity of type available in the market today than at any time previously. A look through the major manufacturers catalogues gives you very few variations on the theme of how to dress wood... spindle moulder, thicknesser, double sided thicknesser, and through feed moulder with anything from 4 to 9 heads is about all thats out there.

One of the machines that I looked at when I was looking was a Wadkin PAR, which made a lot of sense to me from the viewpoint of moderate production... basicly a spindle moulder, jointer and thicknesser wrapped up in one:
https://www.wadkin.com/archive%20pdfs/Wadkin%20PAR%204-Side%20Planer.pdf
however while I thought it was a great machine for square dressing and in the size range I really wanted to cover it's inability to do even a basic shotedge/pencil round corner for decking made it unattractive to me. Those things sell cheap, and anything Wadkin was built to last forever.

There are a couple cheap chinese machines I've seen advertised that have a capacity limit of about 150 x 150/ 6" x 6" and are a super compact 4 head push feed machine. There are always questions about build quality hanging over these things but the idea of them isn't bad; If I had to be honest I could cover 80% of my finishing needs with that size limitation, based purely on the fact that we might run 20 pieces of 8x2 for a deck... but that deck has a couple hundred linear of decking on top of it. Price about $12k USD including freight worldwide. Putting cutterheads on 4 motors in a frame isn't rocket science, how bad can they be?

I think the big thing to get around though is the banana in = banana out issue. Truth being that most all of these things require a board to be quite straight going in to get out a straight board. So what you really have to look at is the drymill as an integrated system the same as you'd look at the combination of saws in a greenmill. Currently I straighten slight crook using the vertical spindles on the 4 sider with a straight line rip for anything beyond that, but pre SLR I did a lot of edge passes on the jointer. If I keep putting more product into flooring and decking a good board edger would be under consideration. A jointer remains the only machine I know of that can effectively remove twist so that has a place too. We cut a good board but there's always movement in drying and crook is a sales killer in any finished product. However regardless of the technology the material has to be there to rip away first and that means cutting oversize to allow for it and it can get pretty wasteful when the boards are lying straight enough you don't need to straighten them. We saw feedstock for flooring and decking in lengths to 4.8m/16' because the market wants those lengths but keeping them long and straight is an issue no matter who you are or what equipment you own. I know my recovery goes up substantially in lengths to 3.6m/12', and is almost unbelievable if we stay under 2.4m/8'. ( By recovery I mean real recovery... log to finished product conversion, not just log to rough sawn green lumber). But my customers want longer lengths because they don't want to be docking substantial percentages off each board away to put the joins on top of a bearer, and they don't want so many joins because joins mean nails and nails mean more work.

Running commercial decking from 150 x 38mm feedstock (6x1½) to 135 x 32mm finished is a 25% reduction in wood volume not accounting for any volume lost to unit shrinkage while drying. That's 25% of a perfectly good board machined off in the drymill to go from industry standard roughsawn size to standard finished size, and thats a lot of good wood to throw out. I can't do a lot about the 135mm finish width, thats the "standard" size that architects and engineers spec jobs around. But if I could keep them short enough that I didn't need so much allowance to remove crook I could cut a non standard size green and my recovery would go up accordingly. More saleable product from the same amount of log is always a winner. Something I'm really starting to think about now is an end matcher, with an aim to being able to provide my customers with a quick, low waste way of getting longer lengths in construction but enabling me to get the recovery of only milling and processing short lengths. I'm not sure how that would work in this climate, but there are some neat looking plastic biscuits in the marketplace now.

The other point being where does it all stop? If my goal is to spend more time doing things I enjoy that don't involve wood why am I so hell bent on improvements and upgrades, all of which come at a price in terms of money and time. All of this value adding stuff is great in theory but if I don't want to work so hard why do I keep buying parts for a bigger faster rat trap that means I have to work harder. That question is one that bugs me a lot lately and I am yet to figure an answer to it.

I know in my running the finish end of the mill I learned fairly quick that it is all about percentages of loss. If I saw a 1x6 then dry it and 4 side it to ¾"x5. After shrinkage and planing. I have a higher percentage of loss than if I saw a 1x8 that finishes at ¾"x7. Now when you get into 10" wide and especially 12" wide material you either have to saw it a little fatter or plane it a little narrower on the finish side. Then I get customers that want a 16" wide finished board. It will have to be sawed at least 18" wide to get them to clean up. Take the 6" compared to the 8". I can get 4.17% less loss in a 8" board. These little things add up to the bottom line at the end of the year. Any time I have a customer that wants Ship lap, V-Groove, or T&G flooring I always try to steer them to 8" material. Most customers will choose the 8" boards because it is priced accordingly.

That is no concern for me, i can get wider boards than 6" out of the teak logs, so no cup planing problems, even with high down pressure. Every wider board gets glued together as a panel.

 can i hang some light bulbs inside the room and have like a dry storage for the machine and tooling?? that's the theory, or do i need a air dryer? 


how about this idea? any insights?

Quote from: longtime lurker on December 25, 2021, 09:22:03 PMPeople think I'm nuts for looking at higher capacity equipment but I know that in my own business having machinery that produces fast means I run that particular machine for less time which frees my available manpower up for other tasks.

that's exactly my thinking at this moment going forward, i don't have too much money laying around but i know that this investment will make me alot of money in the next 20 years and will ease my workload a great deal  

I did that close tolerance sawing thing a few years back and it was an eye opener. Cutting lean instead of fat, couple percentage points here, couple there, we got super fibre efficient. But it only worked when I was the guy sharpening the saw and I was the guy driving the saw and I was forever riding the guy stacking lumber about sticker placement, and riding the guy stacking packs about stacks being dead flat. In short I was onto something and it was profitable but every time I turned my back it fell apart so it was unsustainable without the right people around me.

Now I'm thinking about shorter lengths and end matching so I can reduce the oversaw. And it'll make for a loss of flexibility because it's not going to be saleable except as a finished product - no hocking a trailer load of rough sawn to a wholesaler when I need a cash boost - and I'm not sure that it's a good idea. Profitable for sure, assuming I can sell my customers on the end matching thing. But I don't know if I'm strong enough to carry it if things get rough and behind the current boom it's going to get rough the only question is when.

And I don't know why I bother... It's all priced in. Add another point to the how to be small and viable list: we don't do dick for free anymore. I used to, sure we can dress that for ya, don't worry about it. Now I'm like... Do you want fries with that, that'll be another buck seventy nine. Plus tax. So the customer is paying for the wood we turn into shavings, plus tax, and paying me to turn it into shavings, plus tax, and we'll cut it off to exact length for ya for another 42.55 cents a BF, plus tax.  I'm learning to love these itemized invoices that start with a piece of wood and then every step gets the appropriate fee attached. Used to be someone would come here and want a bit of 2x1 for a door trim and I'd give it to them and hunt them out the gate so I could get back to my saw, now it's like we'll machine it for ya come back Wednesday and it'll be 30 Bux here and 50 there... it adds up quick for sure. I'm advertising for a full time machinist now, got to spread the load and I'm best placed in the greenmill hacking logs to bits.

I avoid 8" panelling here, customers ask and I steer them to 4". Too much humidity variation from wet season to dry season and unit shrinkage in the wider boards can come back to haunt you. Or cup in wide ¾" decking boards. One of those lessons learnt the hard way... sometimes it's better to lose the sale and avoid the warranty claims. But we can do your wall panelling in " insert whatever impossible to get species here" and you won't be able to get that anywhere else (usually true) and you're going to be looking at this thing for another 40 years so you need to weigh up saving a few hundred bucks on the mass produced stuff down the road with having something special there...

I'm turning into a salesman. One thing I notice is that if I get the customer in my door I usually get the sale. And it's because I know my business, but also because this place is not the lumber yard down the road carrying the same stuff as every other lumber yard. You want external stairtreads? Do you have a colour preference, we got it in this and this and this and do you want fries with that? Only thing I haven't got is a coke machine so I can make a few cents per sale there as well :D

I'm not saying that I'm doing "close tolerance" sawing. I'm just explaining that there is a different percentage of loss depending on the size of the board going in versus the size board coming out. My 6" and 8" boards both loose 1" in width from sawed to finished. Yet the percentage of loss is different. In my last sentence I said it was priced accordingly. Which means I charge 5% more for the 6" board than the 8" board. Customer pays for the loss.
Teakwood is talking about taking these boards and gluing them up. I wanted him to know that the same amount of loss on a narrower board is a higher percentage of loss. It took me a while to understand it, mostly because I'm slow. ;D If he runs a bunch of 4" boards and then glues them up he will have double the loss versus running a bunch of 8" boards and then gluing up to get the same width. Someone has to pay for that loss.
Teakwood Yes to the light bulbs. My building isn't enclosed so in high humidity situations I have placed what we call trouble lights on equipment to keep moisture from condensing on it.  

Quote from: teakwood on December 26, 2021, 10:27:28 AM
That is no concern for me, i can get wider boards than 6" out of the teak logs, so no cup planing problems, even with high down pressure. Every wider board gets glued together as a panel.

can i hang some light bulbs inside the room and have like a dry storage for the machine and tooling?? that's the theory, or do i need a air dryer?


how about this idea? any insights?

I'm awake because the rain woke me, guess this is the start of the wet season. Few weeks later than usual, and for me at least a few weeks early because I'm low on logs through unavoidable circumstance but anyway - things beyond my control.

Tully, Queensland , Australia - one of those places where rain is measured in feet not inches. Average rainfall about 4000mm / 160" per annum but thats average and some years it starts to rain and forgets to stop for 8 months. My machines sit in one part of a 30m x 18m shed with the rest of the shed being for dry/KD timber storage. KD is relative here, in a couple hours I'm going to pull a charge from the kiln at 10% MC and by mid week it'll be back to 15% MC... cold timber is a lot more stable but hot from the kiln it just sucks up moisture like a sponge. Doesnt matter its for a local job and by mid next week his house will be at 15% MC too. Anyway...Shed is enclosed on 3 sides and opens into another shed on the fourth, but it's got a 6m doorway either end and no doors. My tooling is stored in wooden boxes on open shelves but I really need a room for it.

I'm in love with a stuff called Lanotec, which is a liquid lanolin solution. I've got spray bottles of the stuff everywhere... use the tooling and spray it on, it leaves an oily film that repels water and the film will eventually dry to a water repellent residue. If it's something I don't use often I'll pour the liquid into a tub and dip the tooling in just to make sure I don't miss any of it but the stuff I use all of the time a spray will do. I've got tap and die sets here I've had for 15 years and there's no fingerprint rust on them yet just from spraying what you touched before you shut the lid.  It's the best thing I've found and I'm sure theres something similar on the market there. Theres a couple fish oil based products I found that worked just as good but this stuff doesnt smell as bad as them.

Machine beds... most of my equipment is old and the beds are cast. I tend to blow them down to remove sawdust then wipe them with an oily rag (lanotec again) after use. But if I'm using it tomorrow and its not actually raining I won't bother... best way to keep rust off cast iron is keep wood moving over it right? If I'm not expecting to use it again for a while (weeks) or I've got a hurricane coming where the rain might be more sideways than down for a bit I'll use one of those wax based automotive polishes. There is a bit of thought required in using all this because if it's just decking or something it doesn't matter but the first few bits of wood across the surface are going to get residue on them and that may interfere with some finishes. So if the woods going into high end cabinetry best to wipe your tables off first. Most wax based bed lubricants do a great job of lubricating and a fair job of surface protecting beds, but I just find that auto polish is easier to apply without missing a bit.
Hard chromed machine beds would be nice and make all of this simpler of course. But anyway I have what I have.

I don't like lights. Tried them but the lights bring the bugs and the bugs bring the cane toads and geckoes and next thing there's an entire ecosystem urinating on my machinery.

Quote from: longtime lurker on December 26, 2021, 12:36:51 PMI don't like lights. Tried them but the lights bring the bugs and the bugs bring the cane toads and geckoes and next thing there's an entire ecosystem urinating on my machine

good point LL, definitively something to consider here in the tropics, ughh

what do you think about this machine? the sell it to me for 4900 Euros and it's not that far away to where i need to send it to the export container. anything special i need to pay attention? 

https://www.maschinensucher.de/weinig-typ+u-16-k/i-5037528 

Exceptionally well built 1970's mechanical technology. Sold as working, new chains so it's been serviced recently, no mention of tooling.
Converts to $10k AUD ( I need to think in my local currency to figure comparative value.)
Assuming decent working condition if I could land that machine with knives suit a couple common profiles ( straight, decking, T&G, VJ at least) in my yard for under $18k AUD I'd be thinking I did ok, and I'd be expecting a $3k freight bill to drag it across Australia so on those numbers I think it's fairly priced.

But I have sufficient floor space, electrical, and dust extraction to plug and play.  And I have the big Klein to handle larger timbers so the size limitation actually works out good. For me that moulder would cost 1/3 of what it will cost you. You'll need somewhere about 60 kVA generator to run that and a blower. You'll need a blower ( usually available cheap but it's the ducting and installation costs that bite)

In this business the electrical issue holds us back until we solve it. Every piece of equipment you ever want comes up at the right price every few years, but when you have to install power to make it work before you start the price becomes hard to afford. But, once you have that power supply... it gets easy.
Do not skimp on the generator, do not play around with phase converters and  VFD's... and this is why: once you have it buying this machine or any other is just about writing the cheque.

I think i found my moulder, a 2001 (i'm not so sure about that) an Italian made Sicar SPC 230 F, 230mm max wide, 130mm max height, 4 heads + 1 universal, build like a tank, 2.5 to heavy and 4.5m long. 34hp in combine. the moulder is in spain right now and leaves monday in a already full container with other machines to costa Rica, the sealesmen had one space left and the freight was already paid, so he charges me 10k for the whole thing with freight and import. that was already a good deal and i ask him if he had a dust extraction system for this machine, he thru a 7.5hp dust motor into the deal for free, i think i would be dumb to reject this deal. I have bought my shaper from him 10 years ago, he has 45years experience with Sicar machines. what do you guys think?
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went to the capitol today to look at 2 semilar moulders, older and rusty models at 14k each, no thanks

but i found this gem, @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) s older cousin
pretty new and unused, for 8k  :o, sadly i don't have the money, the current nor the use for one
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That's a major piece of iron for 10k. What's it going to take to get it going?  Looking forward to seeing that thing run. Nice score. 

Looks like a good deal, go for it.

That's pretty cool.  

Good score on a good looking machine.

Quote from: btulloh on December 28, 2021, 07:47:38 PM
That's a major piece of iron for 10k. What's it going to take to get it going?  Looking forward to seeing that thing run. Nice score.

Well, the salesman said it's full functional and he gives me guarantee , so we will see. takes 45 days to get to CR. half paid now. comes with 4 planer head , old style straight hss which are useless for me here, need carbide cutters.
i found some spiralhead suppliers. anyone has experience with spiralheads on moulders? are the aluminium ones good for moulders? do they hold up? salesmen has a italian supplier and told me that they all use aluminiun and that they had roller bearing problems with the old style heavy steel cutter heads because they weight a ton.

  

 I'd start with just a set of TC knives for what you have now. Being able to pull the cutter block off the machine to change knives makes it a lot easier than fixed heads like a regular planer.If you start moulding you will end up dealing with HSS... carbide knives are too expensive (and hard) to use for occasional use profiles.



If I was going to set up another set of blocks for a machine like that I'd be looking at Teresa for the top and bottom heads. I like the quick change, disposable, range of knife material flexibility that comes with Tersa. I know they do a resharpenable carbide knife though I've never used them. Spiral and helical heads do a good job but turning all those cutters looks like a time consuming task, and as you know teak is good at blunting tooling

ok, the machine is ordered. now i have time to really look into the cutterheads. For the planerhead i will go with spiral cutters, i already know them and they work best with teak.
I won't do much profiling at first but i want a good TyG cutter, what do you think about this one, all carbide inserts, it's expensive but i think it's worth it
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I remember Rob, Tule Peak, talking about insert tooling he had that he was very happy with. Did anyone happen to bookmark that thread?

@tule peak timber (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25190) , help please

Went full bananas with the workhours this week but i got her working finally, that thing is a beast. put 2 boards thru it and dang am i impressed, no snipe at all on all of the 4 sides. i wasn't expecting such a result. i did like 3hours of adjusting before testing though.
Built a room around it to protect it from the rain, wanted to full enclose the room, but now i thing open like this will be better.
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Cyclone works fine, sucks 4times 5" ports pretty good. now i need to work on the dumpster as @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) suggested.
sent some wood to the ofen
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Pretty sweet. Always good when a machine exceeds expectations.  

It's always interesting to see your buildings and such. I'm really glad to know someone that builds all of his stuff out of teak!   8)

Cyclone was too complicated setup for me, i simplified. now it goes directly thru the blower. it seems to me that it sucks stronger now, have not tried it yet with the moulder working.

a question for the electrical gurus, the vfd shows 8.8-9 amps consumption when not under load (without sawdust passing) motor says 5.8amps when operated with 380volts. will i smoke the motor eventually??
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I'm not electrically gifted, but would make a comment about the blower.
Some are "pass through" designed, the sawdust passes through the blades of the blower. Which is how you're using it in the last photo. Most of the cyclone dust collectors are "air only" designed blowers, where the sawdust is separated out before the air flow goes through the blower fins. 
With the setup now, you could have problems with long stingy material, or with the occasional, whole knot that is on its way to the waste pile.
.
Love your operation, and seeing where that beautiful teak comes from.

thanks Andries, we have already discussed this in another topic

Cyclone dust extraction system in Drying and Processing (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=119251.0)

If it is actually pulling double current it ought to be getting very warm very fast, can you hold your hand on it? If you don't have one get hold of a clamp on ammeter and clamp it around each line near the blower and see what that says you are pulling.

I'm curious, it looks like the wall the VFD panels are on is getting wet. Why isn't the molder room roof above the wall and slanted to dump water over the wall?

Unless you are going into a vacuum chamber with filters in a shop I see no advantage. Unless that system can create more cfm being piped outside. A straight sealed up blower system that's piped out to a container seems the best 

Quote from: Don P on June 13, 2022, 10:03:42 PM
If it is actually pulling double current it ought to be getting very warm very fast, can you hold your hand on it? If you don't have one get hold of a clamp on ammeter and clamp it around each line near the blower and see what that says you are pulling.

I'm curious, it looks like the wall the VFD panels are on is getting wet. Why isn't the molder room roof above the wall and slanted to dump water over the wall?

It's not pulling double current, it's pulling 50% more than whats on the name plate. i'm sure this motors have some percentage of security range up and down, i just don't know how much. the fan actually sucks a lot stronger than with the cyclone in place. will do some tests with the clamp on amp meter, clogging intake, clogging outtake, lowering frequency. Maybe @Al_Smith (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2054) can help with the amps, he is a electrical wizard. 
the wall with the vfd's doesn't get wet, there is a big big roof over the structure, i did this wooden room around the molder for 3 reasons, protect the machine from side rain, to put the extraction system on top of the moulder and for more storage room to dry lumber.
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it says 380VY 5.9A does that mean the motor should work in star set up if fed with 380V? by my little understanding of electricity star set up is just for start up and then switch to delta setup?
the vfd does a soft start on these motor, so it doesn't need the star setup? 
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You're talking about Wye start /Delta run .Generally speaking this method is normally used on large motor applications and you don't see it used that often .Fact it's been 35 years  since I've seen one .That example was a 500HP refrigeration compressor at 480 volts used in conjuction with three 300HP units that could be used to stage in and out depending on the load .It was a large turkey processing plant with a 35 degree below zero blast freezer .if memory serves it could freeze 8 tons of turkeys hard as a rock in about 30 minutes .On the start up of the new installation it took an entire semi tanker of ammonia 
Just Google Wye start /Delta run  .They could explain it much better than myself .As far as 380 volts ,you can find some really odd voltage set ups outside the USA . 
Again if memory serves on European 380 volt Wye 3 phase the single phase would be 220 volts and it's been decades since I've seen that .

What that motor tag means is you can wire it for 380V 3 phase or 220V 3phase.

If wired in a Wye config its 380V and full load amps are 5.9A
If its wired in Delta its 220V and full load amps are 10.2A

there are some really technical explanations but lets keep it simpler

What is your incoming voltage, I am not familiar with Costa Rica

Quote from: Machinebuilder on June 16, 2022, 09:41:33 AMIf wired in a Wye config its 380V and full load amps are 5.9A If its wired in Delta its 220V and full load amps are 10.2A

that's exactly what i needed, the motor is wired Wye now. We have north american electrical system here, 60hz, 240V, but i just have single phase, 3 phase from the power company was too expensive. i have invested in vfd's and they can produce me the exact current i need for this italian machine which is 50hz, 380V, 3phase

today i made test runs, dust extractor need to be measured under load, without load it's 8.8A, i clogged half of the intakes (which doesn't make sense because i need full suction)and it went down to 6.5A, clogged half of the outtake and it also went down to 7A, tried with 40hz result 310A, 6A but too slow for good suction, 45hz result 350V, 7.4A.
did make a outtake reduction tunnel and i'm at 6.5A, but all this tests lower the amps but the succion is reduced which is not good.

So my question is, if the windings can take 10.2A at 220V shouldn't they be able to withstand 8.8A at 380V? with the chips passing it will lower the amps automatically, haven't measured it yet, but i rather not compromise suction force for lower amp consumption.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220616_180201.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655424495)

if the motor isn't getting hot after a while of use should i be fine? or can the wiring burn up with to much amps without getting hot? maybe an idiotic question but....

Hmm, this part is kind of off the motor stuff and into fans. I think what is going on there is when you starve the blower it isn't pulling harder, the pressure simply crashes below a point. I know when you neck down the opening into the fan for a pipe there is a sweet spot, beyond which I guess it is just cavitating. I think you were doing the same thing there, you weren't stressing the fan and motor, you were more "relieving" stress from it. I guess one check if its easy to lift it off the plenum and ptooey chute is to remove it from the ducting and see what the motor draws spinning the fan in free air. You'll often see fan specs give CFM at a certain static pressure or a graph of outputs at different static pressures. What really matters is what it draws, or really if it runs warm but not hot with a mouthful of shavings when the molder is running.

You should pull better without a cyclone in the loop. Its a great separator if you need one but it is another restriction. The reasons to have a cyclone separator is if you need to remove the material from the airstream. Dumping the material into a container or desiring to further filter air to bring it back into a shop. I don't think either is needed here, its just a paddlewheel moving material. We think of just shavings and dust but those fans can move lots of things. Sometimes a good cyclone drops the dollars in the bin while letting the hopefully clear or maybe smutty air go, they can be part of a cleaning operation.

Ramblings of a half baked mind  :D

The fans are designed with power curves and maximum aerodynamic efficiency islands where they move the most air based on intake and exhaust pressure losses.  The best combination of airflow looks like an island on a 3D flow map, and that is where the most air is being moved and the aerodynamic load on the fan is the highest and so the load ion the motor is the highest and requires the most power to operate.  So when either the inlet or exhaust airflow deviates from design and operates in either "stall" or "surge" by obstruction or ducting, the airflow will drop and and the power required to turn the fan will decrease also.

The system was designed for use with a cyclone and clean air.  However, any leaks on the suction side the cyclone cone have a huge impact, so make sure all the seals and joints are tight to whatever the bottom of the cyclone is hooked into. I can't tell from the pictures.  The effectiveness of the cyclone is also based on air flow, or rather air velocity, so it filters best when at maximum airflow. 

It should act like a pump .If you throttle the discharge decreasing the air flow the amperage should go down which is exactly what they do on large air handling units used on HVAC units .
Regarding single to three phase regardless of the voltage a rotary convertor should work .If you had enough transformers  you could build a bolt of lightning but it would an electricians nightmare . All that said once again it's nearly impossible to trouble shoot anything over the internet unable to see it .It's often just an educated guess which may or may not solve the problem .

Thanks for all the good post guys, you hit the nail on the head. they are really complicated grafics, normally a motor if it works more it draws more amps, but there is a sweet spot in blowers where with shavings it first goes down and then if you really overload it with material it will draw more.

As the fan has cero restriction on the exhaust side and very little tubing in the inlet side (6') the fan is spinning freely and drawing more amps, 8.8A, but the suction is really there, way more than with the cyclone in place. 

I will give it a try without restrains, check amps under load and check if the motor gets warm, if not i take the chance and go with it.   

I'm not going to dig deeper in the motor rating

380V at 5.9A = 2242Watts = 3hp
220V at 10.2A =2242Watts = 3hp


IMHO using the VFD to run a 3 phase motor on 1 phase power is a great way to do it, it should be more efficient than a rotary phase converter and much easier to setup and maintain.

As a comparison while a VFD usually works well it's rather complicated but a rotary can be DIY with a motor and a couple of capacitors .It all depends on what you have and what you understand . European is one thing but Japanese is a horse of a different color .You have like 200 volts phase to phase and 115 phase to ground .At work on some of those machines we had to use auto transformers to make them work from 480 volt delta supply voltage  .I could never understand why at some point everything was not changed to a universal  voltage .
My shop is 240 volt 200 amps single ,However I have 480 single using two 120 to 480 transformer wired backwards and 3 phase via a rotary and them through a 3 phase step down to 240 3 phase .I have a drill press plus an old Bridgeport mill that have 240 volt 3 phase motors .Then a 240 single using a 24 volt transformer to get 264-266 single which will fire 277 lighting .It's actually a tad higher because my incoming is around 248- 250 volts .Some place in my junk I even have a couple of 200 volt Japanese transformers I doubt I'll ever use .Like most of everything else they were free 8) 

Quote from: Machinebuilder on June 17, 2022, 08:59:19 AM380V at 5.9A = 2242Watts = 3h

So, 390Volt at 7.2A = 2800 =3.7hp
or unrestrained
     390Volt at 8.5A = 3315 = 4.4hp

motor says 4hp , so i think i'm fine

Passed 100 boards thru the moulder yesterday, first 40 boards went ok and then the HSS straight knifes lost their edge and it went bad from there, heads bogged down, to much amp draws, tripped brakers and burnt wood came out,  :D. the straight knife heads are total rubbish, spiral heads are bought and shipped from taiwan, very good supplier and cheap, if anybody is interested. high quality aluminum insert spiral heads.
First thing learned, i needed a mitter saw aside the moulder for pre lengthening boards, found that on fb for 200$ and did a nice table extensions. second, 1" thick boards go thru perfectly, this 3/4" boards started developing terrible snipe. so i planed them a little thicker and pass them thru the one side planer to finish, did install new cutters, glass smooth finish.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220617_092610.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811726)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220618_093448.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811724)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220618_110102.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811720)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220619_080152.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811721)

But the workflow is pretty awsome, put a pallet wood left of the mitter saw, cut to lenght pass them right, to the forklift, then in they go thru the moulder and pile up on again
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220620_084111.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811715)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220620_084130.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811711)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220620_084142.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655811709)

Teakwood; you've been working hard, good progress!
The world famous "sticker police and shop cleanliness force" will no doubt be impressed with your facility.
Me, I'm drooling over all that gorgeous teak. 🤤

I love Walnut but wouldn't mind having some Teak in my woods! 

https://www.woodworkingtrade.com/teak-vs-walnut/ (https://www.woodworkingtrade.com/teak-vs-walnut/)

Not a thing wrong with that start. Looking great.

Look at the deal i made  :D :D, but this is the last piece of equipment i buy for a long time, i have spent way to much on all these updates. Well, it's an investment, will pay me back multiple times over the next 20 years. As the wood sales of the past payed for a lot of the quarry permit expenses now the quarry is paying back with this investment to the lumber business.  ;D

I was in negotiation since 3 month with this guy, had the thing laying around in a storage for 3 years, planer never touched wood before. the guy is broke but still wanted 11k for the unit, this is way to much cash for me, so we started making deals. finally he acepted, 3500$ cash, my old 20" grizzly, a double drum sander 25" (which i do not use anymore) and still had to put 700$ of teakwood into the deal.

But i got this: Grizzly top of the line Extreme Duty Planer 25" G0603X with all the bells and whistle, that thing weights 1 ton
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220624_073811.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114650)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220624_073803.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114657)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220624_073850.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656115473)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220624_082241.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114643)

and this is what i gave the guy
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220621_091508.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114678)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220406_061648.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656115719)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220622_083125.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114657)

there is a possible wood sale from my north american client, like 10ks in panels, lots of them 24" wide, that's why i wanted to update for a long time ago already.

I kinda had it with the sticker problem, you put a pile there then next thing they're in the way so put them elsewhere and so on. pallet for stickers
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220624_161814.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656114647)

Grizzly still sells the unit for just under $13K.  Usually, I only go 1/2 price for used equipment. This is a few years old but never used.  I would place it around $10K in value so you got a really good deal.

teakwood
"neatness" must be your middle name.  8)

Quote from: rusticretreater on June 24, 2022, 08:20:46 PM
Grizzly still sells the unit for just under $13K.  Usually, I only go 1/2 price for used equipment. This is a few years old but never used.  I would place it around $10K in value so you got a really good deal.

Ad at least 5k for shipping to CR, import tax and national shipping. Everything is more expensive in CR. So the deal is even better :D. But I will also spend 1200$ extra for a rotary phase converter

I think that is a good deal. I've never ran any Grizzly equipment but lots of folks like them.

Started to rearrange the workshop, put the small planer in the back, maybe i still need the old planer for some small stuff or when it's just a few boards, so i don't need to start rotary converter and the big planer. probably offer the old owner of the big grizzly planer some cash so i can hold on to the old 20" planer.

All my planning and guessing the future turned out perfectly, got the big panel order form my "gringo" client, 17k in panels and loose boards. so the 25" was the perfect buy at this point :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220703_091926.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935178)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220703_091935.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935163)
the pass thru is getting smaller but i think i'm ok, what really annoys me is you can't put wood on top of the new planer, bad design from grizzly. normally we pass wood form the outside over the planer to do another pass.
another bad thing is the digital control panel should be movable form one side to the other, or be more integrated into the machine, i just see the first board hitting the panel, it's totally exposed.
i'm kinda thinking to do some protective structure over the whole thing but i haven't came up with any intelligent idea yet  ???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220703_091946.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935162)

did a nice wooden base for the phase converter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220703_092009.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935160)

Finally had the time to make a cabinet for the moulders vfd's so they don't eat dust
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220630_121530.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935172)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220630_174142.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656935167)

You don't waste time  :). The cover looks great, and then I wondered how much heat those put off?

We usually use roller tables or carts to stage wood around the planer. I've got a pair of them running for 20' on the off side of the planer now. Run a stack, roll back to the front for the next pass.

i will see about the heat in the cabinet, i did 5 holes in the bottom for fresh air inlet and one big hole on the top right side, hope to create a air flow which expels the hot air on the upper hole. put some fly net over them so the bugs can't come in. also trying to not let to much dust in. if that doesn't work will need to incorporate small exhaust fan and some inlet filters.

i'm planning on making a roller table for the planer

All set and done, this planer is a beast, eats wood. before the fastest gear was 20ft/m now it's 30ft/m, so i'm working faster. also it has a subdivided infeed roller, that means i can feed 4-5 pieces at the time and not just one or two like with the old planer.

several things are already showing up to be bad design from grizzly. the 5" suction port is too small and the funnel inside the hood is not sealing right against the cutter head. lots of chips thrown out and not going into suction. and max cutting depth is only 1/4 and it should be 3/8.

the automatic table raise and lower is awesome!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220705_091239.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1657106468)
A electrician made this nice panel for the rotary phase converter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220705_091304.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1657106471)

Quote from: Don P on July 04, 2022, 09:33:54 AM
You don't waste time  :). The cover looks great, and then I wondered how much heat those put off?

We usually use roller tables or carts to stage wood around the planer. I've got a pair of them running for 20' on the off side of the planer now. Run a stack, roll back to the front for the next pass.

I did one roller table and the thing is worth its weight in gold, but then i quickly realized i need a second one so i can pass the planed board back to do another pass, so i did another one.
Dang am i happy with all the new updates, boosted my panel output by about 25%
 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220710_062627.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1657457316)
the roller cart 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220710_062655.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1657457315)

part of the tooling came from taiwan ;D. after a 14 days delay thanks to Costarican customs :( :(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220712_163939.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1658067246)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220712_173151.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1658067245)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220712_173040.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1658067243)

It's alive, first order, 220 Teak deckboards, grooved for plastic clips fasteners

4 side moulder Sicar SCP16F - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_8mHEY-N5s)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20220808_142836.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1660264337)

Those growth rings.

 :D nice ehh. half an inch at least but totally stable board when dry