Old Weinig foursider

JoshNZ · November 23, 2021, 03:56:45 AM

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about a Weinig PFA22N foursider, there is one for sale that is not too far away for what looks like a reasonable price. Manufactured in Germany 1975, 7 heads, weighs about 4 tons.

It has been in dry storage for the last 5 years and will need a tidy up, surface rust etc. Seller claims it was running fine before pulled from service.

Seems like a pretty wild thing to be buying for a guy with a home built manual mill but, construction materials are in a shortage here. I got rid of all my black walnut and I've come into another decent stack of logs, I'm thinking this would be a good way to get rid of it.

Is it worth a look?

Jeff · November 23, 2021, 07:01:02 AM

What does it have for electric motors? Would you need a converter? I recall us putting in a big Robinson merry go round bandsaw resaw made in Europe, and it had to have all sorts of electrical considerations to run.

Don P · November 23, 2021, 07:41:49 AM

I think I'd would want power company supplied 3 phase for something that size. Is the height x width in a range that will be useful later? From the looks I don't see gleaming welds and breaks. It looks like something blew up in the front left head but that is just a dust hood.

We did get an Italian SCMI 5 head machine that was motored for 50 HZ, we run 60. The factory actually caught it, probably a year or so in and remotored it. The tech said it would cause overheating problems, so something to look for although if it has run that long there it must be correct.

You'll need some serious suction.

JoshNZ · November 23, 2021, 02:20:41 PM

He did mention the current ratings of the 4x three phase motors. I coughed up and got a 3 phase service to my new shed, it will run it.

Providing it's all serviceable, is it a silly idea? If I was going to go down this hole would it be more sensible to buy something newer/lighter. Has the technology changed much in 45 years?

Mooseherder · November 23, 2021, 04:22:25 PM

I would run away from that 4 ton monster and go with smaller that matched my production. Something you can move out of your way instead of taking up space. That machine would take serious logistics to move and a big operational footprint inside a building.

Don P · November 23, 2021, 05:00:59 PM

Heavy iron will run long and strong. The footprint of either machine is about the same when you include the work area supporting it. If the price is right I'd rather have the beast.

It's all manual setup rather than computer controls, setups take longer and are only as accurate as you are. I wouldn't have to call a teenager to get that old girl to talk to me :D.

Mooseherder · November 23, 2021, 05:31:18 PM

Yeah good point. My production on a manual mill is minimal and I thought his would be similar. Come get my Lane to match up to that machine. :D

JoshNZ · November 23, 2021, 05:56:00 PM

I have a spindle moulder with power feed and decent thicknesser that I'm about to put a carbide rotor on, I could do the work with those two machines, a bit more effort but minimal footprint and capitol.

A machine like that would go in its own shelter, I'd say. I don't have shed space for it. He's asking 9k NZ, ~6k US. Pretty good for the island we are. Haven't seen this sort of stuff come up here too often

Iwawoodwork · November 23, 2021, 08:29:23 PM

I have never owned or operate3d one but during the 20 years with OR-OSHA I saw and inspected a few and I would say if you have the room and power supply purchase the indestructible beast. several of the older moulder/planers were much older, 1920's or 30's and still running production, hopefully you get the cutter sharpener machines and extra sets of cutters/blades. what a heavy duty production monster.

Don P · November 23, 2021, 10:48:16 PM

Rambles, what has gotten me thinking about that "entire footprint" comment is the farm museum where I've been working was donated a very old 3 sided machine, I'd guess turn of the century. The family said they would donate a building for it and would like for it to run. It comes from the generation before the oldest ones I've ever seen, and I have a '27 Vonnegut boat anchor and have run a 1904 single sided planer, instead of OSHA its what we call the Oh Sh..! period of the industrial revolution, hopefully it'll be used for very short runs. I'm a bystander thus far but I suspect they are looking at the footprint of the machine where I'm thinking the footprint of the work area. Stuff like that takes some room.

JoshNZ · November 23, 2021, 11:28:09 PM

If it's 4m long and you're putting 5m lengths through it, there's 14m at a minimum 8).

I'd have to pull some more kiwifruit out, but I'm gonna do that anyway at some point. Darn things always blocking my shed and lean-to builds

customsawyer · November 24, 2021, 06:18:15 AM

I would research if you have somewhere that you can get the knives for it before you buy it. With most of these machines they will run and produce a great product. They aren't as user friendly as the newer machines but don't cost as much. You will end up with more money in knives and profiles than you have in the machine. After you learn the machine you will figure out ways to make the set up easier and faster.

metalspinner · November 24, 2021, 07:40:32 AM

I've shared this video earlier this summer. Not sure if it's the same
Model you are looking at. This belongs to member "Teenswinger"... unless he changed his name. He's a full grown man now. 😄

https://youtu.be/hneJjbh0esQ

He's running this off a generator.

longtime lurker · November 24, 2021, 04:11:17 PM

orright... look it's like this. That machine is a good machine if its in going order and the things are (a) built to last forever and (b) eminently rebuildable. It's also 70's vintage which is actually pretty good: you dodge the early digital stuff for mechanical systems, and dodge the older mechanical systems as well.

Go check you power requirements again, cuz a 7 header pulls a lot of amperage. Having 3 phase and having enough juice to run big bertha there are two different things... wire sizes and transformer sizes etc etc, and you dont want to be installing 9xVFD's to get her to run. ( 7 heads +feed+ blower)

It's way too much machine for a sawmill... but thats ok, better too big than too small and armed with that old doll I could feed in bananas and get out straight wood in a single pass.

Find out if its got a groove bed - it may have. One of them ideas that works well in presurfaced timbers but not so perfect in roughsawn.

Where are the knives? Tooling included or tooling unavailable would be a huge consideration in buying that machine.

Lastly Imma share one of the best bits of advice I've ever received, and you need to think real hard about this before you buy any older machine, shared with me by a guy whos been there when I was starting up: " I've owned all those old Robinsons and Stetsons and antique bits of crap and I'm telling you don't go there. You're better off buying the $100k machine that can be run by a monkey than you are buying the $10k machine that needs a $100k a year man to run it"

If she was within 500 mile of me I'd be looking at it, but also figuring the payments out on a new Fullpower or similar.

JoshNZ · November 24, 2021, 06:12:40 PM

I'll avoid taking on any staff with the timber side of things. NZ has made it too difficult to employ people to do this sort of work which is a shame, I reckon I have a job to offer already.

So it would just be me. Wouldn't get run all day every day, a day or two session not even once a month I guess. In that regard, I'm not getting much back on the investment so it's only going to make sense if a bargain comes along

teakwood · December 18, 2021, 06:43:29 AM

@JoshNZ Have you bought the moulder? I would a have jumped all over this gem.

I'm doing sidings and decks with a jointer and planer all by hand, ughhh. that thing would boost up my production at least a 1000%

JoshNZ · December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PM

I haven't bought it but haven't decided I won't yet. It's not exactly a machine you wheel out of the corner of your shed to do a wee job on and tuck back away out of sight again. Would require some space, setup and commitment haha.

I figured I would need a diesel generator next to it, whoever mentioned it above was right I don't have the copper pipe to feed it. 9 motors it is, 400V 75A draw total I think I worked out, if you managed to stall all 9 motors. It would cruise at less than that.

I went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen... So a 40kVA generator and this machine actually seem quite reasonable in comparison, but then with what the local timber machinist charges it'd be 30 odd kilometres of boards before it started to pay anything, in comparison. I'm waiting on a call back from the seller about tooling, they're machinists themselves so hopefully he'll have an idea.

My partner and I are talking about taking the next leap in this industry, everything is aligned well for a timber supplier at the moment in NZ. My bigger priority at the moment is to build a new bed for the mill with hydraulics, that's my real bottle neck. Not the speed I can mill at but the 2-3 days I don't want to look at it again for, after one big day on it lol.

I do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

teakwood · December 19, 2021, 07:57:18 AM

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen

how much? 80k?

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

I have a single spindle moulder but no infeed (sold the infeed 5 years ago, never used it) but still, for TYG i need to do 2 pases, change knifes and thats after making 6 pases on the jointer and planer just to get a S4S board. It's not that i have a huge production operation but sales have picked up and with a almost endless supply of my own teakwood i'm certain that in the future production has to be quicker. i even see a sale in the US, i could produce a container load of deck boards or whatever the market needs, just haven't found anybody interested in selling the timber up there.

I also work alone, so a huge amount of my time is wasted in moving timber from on area to another, feed them by hand thru the machines, then move the timber again and again,.... a forklift would be a wise investment also

KenMac · December 20, 2021, 04:21:53 PM

Quote from: teakwood on December 19, 2021, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI went and got a quote for one of those weinig cubes and profimats new, that's not gonna happen

how much? 80k?

Quote from: JoshNZ on December 18, 2021, 04:32:46 PMI do have a spindle moulder setup with a power feed, have you considered something like that?

I have a single spindle moulder but no infeed (sold the infeed 5 years ago, never used it) but still, for TYG i need to do 2 pases, change knifes and thats after making 6 pases on the jointer and planer just to get a S4S board. It's not that i have a huge production operation but sales have picked up and with a almost endless supply of my own teakwood i'm certain that in the future production has to be quicker. i even see a sale in the US, i could produce a container load of deck boards or whatever the market needs, just haven't found anybody interested in selling the timber up there.

I also work alone, so a huge amount of my time is wasted in moving timber from on area to another, feed them by hand thru the machines, then move the timber again and again,.... a forklift would be a wise investment also

Calling Mr. Yellowhammer!!!!!!!!!!

JoshNZ · December 20, 2021, 04:50:32 PM

Try $177k, that was for the cube. The profimat was more again. Salesman seemed to think the cube wouldn't take moulding knives, square edges only.

That's NZ dollars, $119k US. Everything here is a bit silly at the moment though, some of the freight costs for things are laughable.

Yep I hear ya teak, if you're getting into selling material products rather than raw timber you def want something to speed things up. I'm solo as well and want it to stay that way.

longtime lurker · December 21, 2021, 06:51:15 AM

That Cube is a LOT of money for not much machine, IMHO.

I priced up moulders about 5 or 6 years ago... a 5 head profimat was about $170k AUD, a 6 head Fullpower about $110k AUD back then. Fullpower are the most common moulder I see getting around the place... they make a good machine and while Weinig have earnt their reputation as the BMW of moulders it's hard to justify the price unless you've got a lot of work for it.

I think you've got to do a bit of crystal ball gazing here about where you think you're going to go, and invest your money where it's going to make the most return.

So when I was looking for a moulder I had (still have) a really solid little thicknesser and a straight line rip and a jointer... that was my drymill equipment. Mostly I was selling GOS hardwood framing and a bit of KD cabinet timber and my want for a moulder was because I wanted to be able to size ( but not DAR) my framing as thats become a pretty common standard here rather than straight rough sawn. So I'm crunching the numbers on new machines and also looking for a bargain for a while, and piling up a whole heap of feedstock for decking while I do it so when I buy and install I'll get my $ back fast.

Things happen, change of wholesale customer, next thing you know I'm supplying a guy who only wants rough sawn because he's got a 5 header and a 6 header... and he'll also run my wood at a price that's not cheap... but cheap enough. And of course the joy of that deal was that I didn't have to buy the machine, maintain the machine, or even feed the machine because he's got machinists on staff to do alla that. All I've got to do is send my stuff on the truck with his order and pick it up next week when I deliver his next order. That works okay for a bit but I keep on looking and then I found the right machine for me.

I wound up with an old shortbed 4 sider, which turned out to be exactly the machine I needed. They aren't really common anymore, to my knowledge the only manufacturer still making then is REX (and if you think Weinig is expensive you aint even close) ... front like YH's carpet planer with a pair of opposing vertical heads at the back. I can't do complex moulding like a moulder can... I can do things with the vertical spindles for pencil round, VJ, shiplap, T&G etc but the top and bottom heads are limited to straight knives only... but I can joint into the first bottom head, and because my vertical heads are directly opposing I can not only size but actually cut a fair bit of spring out of bent boards as well, and she can open up to drag half ton bits of wood through well beyond the capacity of any moulder mere mortals can afford. So I size and DAR my framing as required, get real flat boards in my cabinet timbers, run my own decking or T&G in "house size" runs... and farm anything complex like custom architrave or big bulk jobs out to someone with a moulder which is like a fraction of my machining needs each year.

I was looking for a moulder because moulders were the machine I saw everywhere I went. Turns out it wasn't what I needed. YH runs that carpet planer, I kind of remember he was thinking moulder then he found something that worked better for his business. What I'm not saying is don't buy a moulder, and yanno that big girl you're looking at is a lot of moulder and will still be going when we're dead. But I am saying think real hard before you leap because she won't be easy to resell for the same reasons you're thinking it over.

teakwood · December 22, 2021, 07:38:14 AM

Very interesting post LL, and i'm spending hours researching and reading and it's kinda hard to come up with such good info as yours, so i really appreciate it.

I started sawing timber 3 years ago when the hindu buyers decided that teak is worth half the price now than before 2019, first i did rafters, sold a few but not much, then a guy told me make 1 and 2" boards for carpenters and that sold better, so this year i sold 60k in wood, 90% planed wood and some of them with TyG. I also sold like 20k in panels which i all fabricate manually, need glue line quality after planing. for the paneling YH double sider would be king for this kind of work but way too expensive for me.

So tell me, which machine would suit me best? because my knowledge of moulders is like 0.
I have a small 20" planer, jointer and single spindle moulder, and 10% of my sales are raw wood, 80% is S4S timber and 10% is with some profile (i can grow this sales with a more productive machine)

I didn't even knew what a REX is, had to look it up. I know a moulder is limited with it's capacity of 6-8" wide and most are just 4" height, so i can not pas a 5x5 or 6x6 post. i can do beams 4x6

or am i off with my theory?

teakwood · December 24, 2021, 07:00:44 AM

@longtime lurker

another question: on a 4 or 5 head weinig/scmi i know i can infeed bananas and get straight pieces out but, can i infeed bananas and get bananas or halfbananas out? This is very important for me, teak is to expensive to be able to plane off 1/4" on 4 sides. when i sell decking it doesn't matter if they are bowed on the flat side, on the wide side they should be straight.
so, for 24mm thick deck boards i start with 28-30mm thick boards, so thats 2-3mm each side

customsawyer · December 24, 2021, 07:06:11 AM

A lot of it depends on how much curve the banana has. If it is slight than most machines can straiten it some. If it is bad going in it will be a little better coming out but still not good. That is why they make SLR machines.

Don P · December 24, 2021, 07:18:43 AM

For bow an old push feed machine will smash the board flat to the bed and feed vs a modern feed through machine with lighter feed pressure that tries to face the board. For crook, you pretty much need straight stock going in, it'll do it to an extent but those are sticks I'd probably reject on the receiving end.

I've only run a little teak, do you have to run carbide or can you keep HSS sharp for long enough to work?