Hard starting in cold weather questions

[Ljohnsaw]

My first car was a '67 Olds Delmont 88 with a 425 2 barrel carb that I got in '77 (but all rusted out).  Must of had an original battery because it wouldn't start in the cold.  Didn't have the money to buy a new one but had a "pipe" heat strip laying around.  I wrapped that around the battery and would leave it plugged in at night.  It always started with just a tap with that warm battery!

[Gary_C]

Jim I doubt the isopropyl will do any good. Your gas already has ethanol in it and the ethanol does the same thing that isopropyl will do which is absorb any water in the system.

The first thing I would suggest is to see if you have the correct spark plug for that engine. If the engine was built for leaded gas, it may need a different heat range for ethanol gas. And every fall, I have to change plugs for winter gas in my gas engine loader tractor as something in the fall blend of gas fouls plugs quickly. You know they sell four different formulations of gas corresponding to the seasons.

Second thing to change is your oil. Go to a good synthetic oil for gas engines. Something in a 0W-30 perhaps. But especially a synthetic oil as they help a lot in cold starting.

And third, check your hydraulic oil. One reason for hard starting in cold weather in machines with a large hydraulic pump is the drag of the cold hydraulic oil in the pump. So warming the engine is not enough, you have to warm the hydraulic reservoir too. There are some newer multi viscosity hydraulic oils available now that may help your situation. Check with your oil supplier for a recommendation for your machine.

[Al_Smith]

You could have a lot of issues on that old tractor .Condensate in the distributor cap can be cleared with a shot of ether in the cap .It vaporizes fast and gets rid of the moisture .

The valves might need lapped in .If that thing is loosing compression it will be hard to start in warm weather .If you have a crankcase full of straight 40 WT oil the poor old starter can't spin it very well FWIW I have a 1951 Ferguson 20 that will start no problem ,no heat no ether at 10 below .Fires right up .12 volt on a 6 volt starter ,10 W 30 in the crankcase .It runs better than I at those temps .

[Jim_Rogers]

maybe I'll try taking it out and putting it near the wood stove for a couple of hours
Jim Rogers.

Well we had a big snow storm in my area Thursday night and into Friday morning, including very cold temps.

Yesterday, it was only 0°F when I got up and I was snowed in until I could get the backhoe running and plow out the yard, and driveways.

While waiting for the temp to make its run up to 20°F, I took the battery out and brought it in near the wood stove, for at least an hour. And charged it while it was inside. Cleaned the posts and cables real good. Tag on age was destroyed but I think I have the slip on a shelf with parts somewhere.

After a while I put it back in and tried starting it. With the tarp over the engine, propane heater under it and the battery charger on it would barely turn over. As mentioned cold oil and cold hydraulics for sure.
I tried and tried but it would turn over fast enough to start. I put the battery charge on the highest setting but that only blew the breaker. I won't do that again.

I found an old can of starting ether and tried a very short squirt of that as well, didn't help.

So I needed to get it warm enough under the tarp to start. I got a cardboard box and put some paper in it and some small chunks of wood and put it under the engine and pointed the propane heater at it. In no time at all the box was burning and the wood was making some flames.  I had to put out one small grease fire on the tie rod end but nothing was damaged that I can see.

After a short while of the fire going under the machine it began to spudder while I was turning it over, a spark or two were firing. Soon the old girl started up. And I managed to get the driveways plowed out and some of the yard. It was very cold sitting out in that weather (no cab on machine) with the small wind blowing. I didn't want to be out there more than a half hour at a time.

I put some fresh gas in and put in a few ounces of stabilizer that I had on hand. I haven't bought any dry gas yet.

Thinking about some of the solutions listed above, I decided to see if I could swing the backhoe over to one side and get it short enough to fit into the small garage attached to my mother's house.
We had taken the hydraulic feed line off the backhoe a while ago. And I didn't want to try and re-attach it myself. So I used a come-a-long and pulled it over to one side. With a couple of chains and a chain binder, I managed to get it pretty well turned and pulled up tight to the up position so it is as short as it can be.

And guess what? it fit fine in the garage. Where it is right now.

When I got here this morning it was below zero, outside. I put a thermometer on the backhoe seat to see what it was in the garage. I think it read 10°F inside the garage. At least 15° warmer then outside.

I am or have been waiting for the run up to 20°F today to try and start it and finish plowing out the yard and sawmill. I need to move this snow before it "rains" on it Sunday, and then freezes solid Tuesday morning.

I am going to try it in a while and see if it starts. I may have to put the battery charger on it again. And most likely put the propane heater under the engine for a while. But being that it's in the garage it should take long to warm up in there. Hopefully.

Once started I'll leave the garage door open for a while to let any exhaust out.

They say don't run a BBQ grill indoors because of carbon monoxide gases. But what about a normal propane heater? Does that create carbon monoxide gas as well?

The garage is more then 2' lower then the tv room and that room is 15" lower then the house first floor. I know carbon monoxide gas is heavier then air so it shouldn't get into the house. Plus there are two closed doors between the garage and house first floor. But I am concerned. A friend said it would be ok to run it in the garage to warm it up for a while. I could look for alarm I have around here somewhere and bring it with me to put on while the heater is running.

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about running this heater in the garage.

Thanks.

Jim Rogers 

[Ljohnsaw]

YES, the heater does produce CO gas, as well as your tractor!  Those bullet heaters contractors use to warm up a house so they can do drywall work are run with the doors/windows open a bit.  At the very least, leave the garage door open a few inches.  If it is a roll-up or flip-up, the heat will rise and the CO will go out the bottom.  Is the wind/breeze blowing toward or away from the garage door?  Don't rely on the increase in height to the house to keep you safe.  Put a CO detector in the first room and make sure the door is sealed well - I'd go as far as to tape around the frame to the door.

DON'T MESS AROUND WITH CO!  It has no odor and just makes you sleepy before it kills you!  If you feel like you are getting a headache, get outside and get some fresh air!  It would almost be pointless to put it in the garage - it will alarm, guaranteed.  They have a very low threshold.

[Hilltop366]

Jim if you put a block heater in that old Case I'm guessing you will be able to start it up without all the trouble of the propane heater, Just plug it in and have a nice 30 minute visit with your mom then fire it up.

There are a few different kinds of heaters, the ones that go in the frost plug or a well that is designed for a heater seem to work the best, you can also get heaters that go in the lower rad hose (sold by size to fit the hose size), or the kind that go on a heater hose, the heater hose ones didn't work well on the 1979 Case 580 we use to have, the only reason we could come up with is the flow and return were only a few inches apart in height and would not circulate through the engine block, it would come on but only run a short time and shut off.

The 86 Case 580 I have now came with a block heater (not sure what kind) it was in the low 20s a few weeks ago and a guy up the road got his tractor and his truck stuck in a swamp he called my brother to pull him out, we gave the hoe a few cranks but it didn't fire so we plugged it in and went to town for 20 minutes came back and it started like a sumer day.

[beenthere]

They say don't run a BBQ grill indoors because of carbon monoxide gases. But what about a normal propane heater? Does that create carbon monoxide gas as well?

Another answer "YES".

I'd forego the heater and just open the doors to the house, and put in a fan and rob heat from the house IF any is needed to get the TLB started.

And sounds like a new battery might be in order too. Having to pump up the one on there now that often indicates it is on its last leg.
Being as you depend on this tractor for emergency use when it snows, best figure a way to make it more dependable. You might run out of cardboard boxes to burn up in the future. ;D

[Jim_Rogers]

I guess, I'll call my parts guy and see what they have for a heater, block or otherwise that will go into this old machine.

I found the alarm and I have batteries for it as well. will wonders ever cease.....

I'll try and start it before I put on the heater. I have two electric that I could use but I'm not sure if they will heat it up enough, fast enough, we shall see.....

Jim Rogers
PS. thanks for your advice.

Charger has been on for a while, I'm going to try and see what happens. I drove it in the garage but next time, I'm going to back it in.

[Jim_Rogers]

Detector batteries were the rechargeable kind and this detector doesn't like them, chirps all the time. So I'm off to town on errands, and will get some new detector batteries while there.

It almost started right up turned over real fast then lost it. I'll have to find the slip and see how old this backhoe battery really is and make a decision on whether or not to replace it.

I have an electric heater under it now and we'll see how much it raised the temp while I'm on my short few minutes run to town.

More later.
Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers

[SPIKER]

Lots of good suggestions, them ole updraft carbs are a pain for sure.   With low cranking speed they don't atomize the fuel as there is not enough suction do to the slow cranking.

With a Heat Lamp directed AT the Carb will warm up the fuel in the bowl about as best as ya can.   The Cold sure is FUN lol...   

I use a Lower Radiator Hose heater on my  tractor and it helps a LOT.   I also put the heat lamp (also used the dual 500 watt work lamps when the heat lamp (dropped) and broke.   The Heat Lamp heats up the injection pump and fuel lines into the injectors so the fuel is warm.   

I've ALSO done the torpedo heater and cardboard as COLD is harsh and every thing helps.

I keep a Maintainer/Charger on it too as that keep the battery warm & charged (warmer anyhow.)   I also put a dual dose of that Battery Chemical stabilizer stuff in it and it WORKS  8)  That battery is 12 years old this year and is factory original & have left key on 3 times (killing battery) and had Hyd Hose drop down & short the Starter Sol terminal to the Hot post which cranked tractor starter till it fired and kept running till battery was 100% dead for a 4th time.   Each time with a proper reset of the battery it has lived..

NOTE: a proper reset for a battery, use a 200Amp Booster for ~15 min or so till the acid boils, then drop back to a 25~50 amp charge for 2 hrs and then set on a 2~10 amp charge cycle for 12+ hrs.   That could help an old tired battery it will need filled right level prior to charging.

Mark 

[Jim_Rogers]

I got back from town with the new AA batteries and the thermometer in the garage on the seat said 22°F. It was almost warmer outside. And that electric heater didn't do that much.

But it did do enough, it started right up.

I've been plowing a while and just stopped to put more wood in the stove here in the shop/office. And I don't think I'm going to put it back in the garage tonight. They say it's only going down to 21°F tonight and that's where it is right now, here outside the shop/office.
I will put the tarp over it tomorrow if I need to, suppose to get up to 39°F tomorrow, and 51°F with rain overnight into Monday.

I most likely can get it running tomorrow without much trouble and finish cleaning up the yard, all driveways are done and more than half the yard.

I only hit the log pile once with the backhoe bucket turned.



 

Above is the backhoe in the small garage.

I will think about cleaning out another bay on the side of this shop that is full of junk that I mostly don't need, and will most likely never use. And see about putting the backhoe in there for the wintertime.
I will have to move a lot of stuff to get enough room in there to put it in, but maybe I can sell off some of it and make enough money to buy a new battery :D ;D.

I did speak to the guy behind the desk at the salvage yard one day while I was there about what they were paying per pound for old dead batteries. My friend who has helped me from time to time with this machine told me about taking a stack of batteries there for his uncle. Because the uncle needed a new battery. Then made enough to pay his time and get the new battery. I think that will be the next thing to do, very soon.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Mark:
I can't get into the battery to add anything or to watch it is see if the acid boils like we used to in the olden days......

Jim Rogers

[red oaks lumber]

batteries arent that expensive, replace it unless you love misery

[thecfarm]

I would go with a block heater. Don't know if you could throw an old blanket over the motor and carb to keep the heat in place. On my other tractor,diesel,I had no block heater. Just a 100 watt bulb and a blanket did a fine job. One of those 300-500 watts lights put out some heat too. Now I have a block heater and one hour makes it start like the 4th of July.

[Jim_Rogers]

I have one of those halogen lights that does through a lot of heat.
Maybe I'll try aiming that at the carburetor/manifold and see if that will make the gas mix correctly and start.

I will try and find the battery slip tomorrow morning.

I know batteries aren't that expensive, but the last one I bought for the sawmill cost me $163 and this battery is even bigger. If I can turn in a dozen batteries I have stacked up here that are junk and get 24 cents a pound maybe I can get enough for a new battery. I don't know what the average battery weights but the one I lifted out the other day was at least 40 lbs.

I just looked up the battery I bought for the sawmill and it weighed 36.5 lbs. At 24 cents a pound that's about $9. If I turn in 10 batteries or more I may just have enough to get a new one. I'll have to do a count tomorrow and see how many I have.
Years ago, you didn't get much or you had to pay to get rid of them. So I never did.
And now I have a bunch of them. I might as well get rid of them, now and use the money to buy a new one.

Jim Rogers

[thecfarm]

Jim,I would keep the light on all night. Motor covered with a blanket.

[Hilltop366]

Jim,I would keep the light on all night. Motor covered with a blanket.

Careful, those halogen lights put out enough heat to be dangerous!

I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?

[chevytaHOE5674]

I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?

When I don't have time to let the block heater work, I've put a hair drier or heat gun directly into the air intake on my equipment and it will usually fire right up.

[coxy]

not to be a jack     but all the time you have had  it plugged in    running to town to get things     the propane     gas for the car or truck and most of all your time and aggravation  it would have been cheaper to buy the oil   battery or block heater or all three ;D jmop

[gspren]

  Driving and using newer equipment with electronic ignition and fuel injection that almost never needs a tune up we forget that tune ups need done much more often on old technology engines. I have tractors from the 44 Farmall H to 56 JD620 and they start right up unless there is something out of tune, usually ignition but sometimes fuel related.

[red oaks lumber]

the batteries i bought for my 180 hp tractor were $79 ea. a battery that is weaker on cranking will give all sorts of starting fits. if its more than 5 yrs old replace it.

[LAZERDAN]

OK : now you've got me thinking Are we all not capable of all summer long of putting up some sort of shelter? portable if we can't aford permenent structure or building restrictians.  Dang it I am going to get one of those large cart corral buildings and insulate it and heat it next year! I am sick of -10 already !  Now I have a goal.  That,s all I have to say about that.   (for now anyway)  Lazerr(burrr) dan   

[Jim_Rogers]

I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?

When I don't have time to let the block heater work, I've put a hair drier or heat gun directly into the air intake on my equipment and it will usually fire right up.

I tried the hair drier trick and it didn't seem to work.

I tried the halogen light on the intake manifold trick and that didn't work today either.

I tested the battery with my battery tester and it tested good. But I may replace it anyway.

I checked the distributor cap and the rotor as I have converted this from a point set distributor to an electronic ignition a while ago and the cap was dry and the rotor was a bit dirty so I filed it and now it is very clean. Didn't help starting it today.

I will be changing the oil to something other than what's in there next time it's warm, most likely tomorrow.
I may buy some other oil than what I have on hand which is 10-30w.

Never got it running today. I had to leave as I was about to put the tarp over it and put the heater under it to go home and deal with some frozen pipes. By the time I got there the day had warmed up enough that they thawed out by themselves and I didn't have to crawl under the kitchen to warm them up.

I haven't taken the time to find the slip on the battery as I had the above problem to solve. But I will and try and get the same size, if I decide to replace it. It is not that old, as I remember it. But we'll see when I find the slip.

I am seriously thinking about cleaning out an open bay on the side of this shop that is full of junk and put the machine in there as soon as possible, plus getting a block heater of some kind or another.
Hopefully the dealer will have something that isn't too hard to install, and doesn't cost an arm or leg to buy.

Thanks again for all your advice and comments.
Jim Rogers

[Mapleman]

Its possible that your starter is on its way out and drawing a lot of current but not turning the engine over fast enough.  If the starter doesn't turn over fast with a new battery and you're sure of all your connections and wire sizes, the starter might be at fault.  I had this problem with one of my old farm tractors and the new starter made a huge difference.

[thecfarm]

Jim.you said you never got it running today? I had one degree this morning but by noon was 32. Tommorrow should be warmer. If that halogen light did not help,they put some heat out,might be something else. Did you try to boost it with something else?