need cabin advice

[tmroper]

First off I live in a very rural part of montana and at the current living in a house on a ranch that I ride for.  However someday would like to build a cabin or tf home.  I would not to go any larger than need be for financial reasons and can get the logs for free to use or mill.  I feel that I will also go with a design that could be added onto.  At the present I don't think I will do a basement just a crawl space. ok now for the questions.
1. Will piers work in a cold climate like montana or would freeze your you know what off.
2. I am thinking 1300 sf what style do you think would be most feasible?
3. If you reccomend log cabin what thickness logs for the walls?
Thank you for your help

[scgargoyle]

I can only address the foundation. I looked into building on piers. In Montana, I imagine the frost goes pretty deep, so what ever you do has to get down below the frost line. You would have to invest quite a bit in insulation, plus make it so critters don't chew it up or nest in it. You'd probably want to do something to keep the wind from whipping under there, too. The piers should have a wide foot, so the frost can't grab the piers and jack them out of the ground. There is a form called a Bigfoot just for this purpose. I decided the piers wouldn't save me that much money, so I'm planning a basement, probably ICF. I'm planning a permanent residence, so for me, the basement is (relatively) cheap added square footage. I'll build a smaller total footprint, since I'll have a basement. If you want to investigate piers further, and small cabins, etc., I go to countryplans.com. They have a good forum for that stuff, although not much log or timber frame.

[Brad_bb]

Yeah those peirs are tapered so that as the ground heaves upwards from the frost, it cannot grab the peir and lift it up.  Log of TF?  I'd say that depends on what YOU want.  What look and style do you prefer?  There are workshops out there for learning either.  I'm into TF myself.  That usually necessitates using modern materials to sheath and insulate.  There are some people using natural techniques to insulate.  Both methods have positive and negative points depending on your building philosophy.  I would advise you to take a workshop to understand either timberframing or log building.  There are a number of timberframe workshops, mostly in the spring, but a couple in the fall.  Last june I attended a workshop in Idaho:
http://www.timberframesbycollinbeggs.com/
Just email them and ask about their next intro workshop.
Also out your way is:
http://www.rockymountainworkshops.com/index.html#workshops
They haven't set new classes yet, but I'm sure if you email they'll tell you roughly when they are planning the next TF class.
Money spent going to a good workshop for a week is money very well spend indeed.  You will gain so much knowledge and confidence, it will really pay off if you do decide to build your own home or cabin.

[Rooster]

Hey,

There seems to be more timber-framers on this forum than log builders, so you will probably see that in the guys who post on your thread.  Thinking outside the box, have you thought about purchasing an already existing older timber-framed barn?  Have it dismantled, shipped to your site and then reassemble it yourself?  There are many barns in the midwest that are coming down for many different reasons, and you could use one and convert it into a home.  One advantage is that you wouldn't have to learn how to frame, because all of that is already done....and by puting it back together yourself (with some help from family, friends, or a professional) you can still feel that you built it yourself.

Here is just one of the sites that markets barns for sale:

http://www.oldbarnwoodsite.com/old_barns_for_sale_.htm

And the logs that you said you can get could be used for new flooring, siding, roof-decking, or adding any desired additons to the previously built frame.  And with most timber-frame structures, additions are usually simple to attach.

Good luck!
Rooster

[moonhill]

I could second that, recycle, and it is "green". ;D

Tim

[shinnlinger]

HI,

Piers are an inexpensive way to go, BUT of course there are other factors.  Like water lines and sewer lines.  How are you going to keep them from freezing?  Septic is less of an issue because the stuff is usually warm when it goes down, but ice crystals could be an issue at some point.  Water supply though is a whole other matter as  that static line will freeze up.  You can of course build an insulated box, but it better be good for when you go away for a weekend in February.

The critters are also an issue as mentioned , so if you do end up with concrete, once you dig down the 6 feet to get past the frost line, you might as well keep going and get a full basement.  You rarely regret extra space though so don't be too hesitant about it.

Can can form it yourself and reuse the form boards for your sub-floor or rent forms you can build with those foam blocks (but they are EXPENSIVE)

Now back to the project.  If you want cheap, I would think a mobile home is the way to go.  If you want well insulated I think a double walled stick frame with 2x4's 2 ft O.C . but staggered one foot apart for a 8 inch wall with cellulose insulation would be an economical yet "green" wall.  If I could have been clairvoyant, I would have gone that route instead of my current timberframe. Don't get me wrong, my timberframe is inspiring and I don't regret it, but if I were starting from scratch I would take a hard look at the double wall construction in a cold climate like Montana.

Just to throw one more potentially cheap but green idea out there, you said you are on a ranch.  If you have access to bailing equipment you could build yourself a load bearing or timberframe straw/mulch hay bale-house.  The first ones were actually built at the turn of the last century in Nebraska where building materials were scarce, but strawbales weren't.  A lot of people in Canada and New Mexico have built strawbales for the high R factor.

As for the old barn route, I don't know if that will be inexpensive.  You will have to look around but most classic hand hewn timber frame barns were built well before Montana became a state so you won't find one out there.  An old industrial building might be another matter though, but they can be tough to insulate and still maintain their character.  The thing with reusing an old building (an idea I LOVE) is seeing the whole picture.  You can buy a building in downtown Bozeman for a dollar, but it doesn't mean it will be cheaper than starting from scratch by the time you get it moved to your site and set up.

[tmroper]

Thanks guys
You really gave me something to think about and that is what I was hoping for.  This project is in the planning stage and having different ways of looking at things is always helpful.  On using strawbales for homes do the strawbales rot leaving you with uninsulated wall? I am going to go and look at a strawbale home this weekend and see what I think.  Strawbales is definitely not a problem for me I baled 12,000 this season and could have baled that much more but was ready to park the baler.  We have a round baler and bale up quite a few with it but I prefer to feed with a team and the small squares are just easier to use for that purpose.  Once again thanks for all the advice keep it coming if you think of something to add of thoughts on strawbale w/ tf or cordwood w/ tf
Thanks

[moonhill]

Straw not hay is what you would want.  Barley straw or even oat after it has been harvested so there is no seed.  Then the next logical step would be a clay render and plaster.  I have a straw bale building which I experimented with, I would make a change in how my first one was made.  I didn't use any clay at all.  If I had it to do over I would dip each bale in a clay slip and them place it in the wall with a plaster on the inside and a rough render on the outside. 

How about a rubble trench for a foundation? Place a concrete beam on the top and build.

http://www.dancingrabbit.org/newsletter/Newsletter0898_Foundation.php

Tim

[jdtuttle]

Slab on grade or monolithic foundation. You can acid etch the concrete for a finished floor. You should think about the heating system too. With a concrete slab in-floor radiant heat is a great solution & the frost won't penetrate if the concrete is heated.

[shinnlinger]

I suppose an earth floor (you can run radiant tubes in that also) with a rubble trench could be another minimal concrete option.   I would recommend a concrete bonding beam on the top though to hold it all together.

As you mention there are straw bales houses in Montana and I bet there is a workshop there too, certainly in the northwest.  If you can bale your own straw, then I will say that is the way to go.  Moonhill has indicated that hay is not as desirable, but my theory is that if you are going to encase in plaster, which you want to do, I don't see why old mulch hay is not feasible if you happen to have a bunch of old dry, tight bales sitting around you don't know what to do with.  Straw is a better choice though.  IF you build with common sense, encase in plaster and you have sufficient overhang, you should have no problems with rot.

You need to read a book, It is called "Serous strawbale"  It is written by Canadians and they discuss numerous options for you in cold climate situations like you are facing.  You will only need about 500 bales for the structure you are planning.

My vote for you now is build a timber frame structure, put a roof on it, and then wrap the frame with the bales.  This is what I was going to do until a huge load of use polyisocyanates showed up at my house and replaced the straw.  You may be able to use a steel building frame with roof and wrap that in bales.  I bet you could find an unused steel outbuilding in Montana for cheap.

[northernss454]

Hello, this is what I just did a while ago. I poured a floating slab with thickened edges, I then stamped the floor, and used colored concrete. Ran heat lines thru it, tied the heat lines into my wood stove, there is a special coil you can buy made just for that. I went smaller than you want but I like the simple cabin look, and I went with a half loft. If it were me I would use my own logs, just more satisfying in my mind. I hooked my pump up to the in-floor heat with different speeds, when its gets hot I just speed up the pump and cool it off.
Just my 2 cents

[tmroper]

northernss
where did you get that special coil to go in your woodstove?

[jander3]

Pier below the frost line work fine.   Need to count on something to bank the building (skirt, shovel snow, etc) to keep the wind and cold out of the airspace below the building. 

Bigger logs the better...fewer number of logs per wall.  If I could build with logs that are 20"-24" at the butt end,  I would be happy.  However, I have logs that are 12"-18" at the butt available, so that is what I use.

Insulate with wool and em seal in the lateral groove.

[northernss454]

http://www.hilkoil.com/
There is the website site, nice guy to deal with.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And welcome to the forum Tm  ;) ;D  ;D 8) 8) 8) I'm a big fan of stump floor systems just cut Pine 6x6" stumps to be treated for my place today  ;D 8) I'm starting a 1000 or 1500 sqft heavy timber place for myself I haven't decided which way I'll go yet but its between a dovetail slab/hewn or a timberframe with 8x8s with a slab infill I have a couple of plans to decide between  ;) :D : but once they go in to council in the next month I'll be set in my path  ;) both use the same size floor system  ;) but the dovetail place is two story  ;) stumps should be fine you will have to go past the Frost line or to Bedrock and you'll have to infill with rock or plinth boards to keep the wind out mate  ;)

I'll start a thread when I finally start building My Home  : ;) :D ;D 8) 8) this place has spent 10 years in my head in the Planning stage since I got the blocks of ground  Mate  :   ;) :D  :D ;D

I myself would go with the new timber cleaner and easer to work with either way full log, hewn dovetail  or post and beam with slab or round log infill the slab infill would be good if your using the m14 mill to saw your timber on as you can use shorter lengths and you could pretty much precut everything you need in a shed/barn  ;) I've been building Log & Timberframe homes since I was about 13 so have any questions just ask Mate

Regards Chris

[krusty]

I would do a 20x24 TF cabin with loft in that climate and use SIPs. Spend a little $$ on the SIPs for the savings you will have with heat even if your firewood is free.

Sonotubes would be fine down to frost level.

Heck is there a cheap 500 acres of wilderness for a Canuck!?

[shinnlinger]

I made my own SIPS when I found out how expensive they were... OBSCENE!!!

[tmroper]

Thanks everyone
Meadow miller I appreciate your response that is about the size I want due to the fact that I will be living in it fulltime.

shinnlinger
how hard were the sips to build what did it cost?

[shinnlinger]

Roper,

I have a post in here somewhere about "homemade foam roof panels" or something  close.

They were easy to make and cheap because I found a good deal on used panels on Ebay.  Look for a old lumber kiln and you might have all the foam you need there.

They went on my roof but If you had a timber frame and ran horizontal nailers  every 3-4 ft between the posts, you could fasten the panels to your walls the same way I did the roof.  Fasten window and door bucks to these nailers and you would be all set.  You will also have a nice horizontal band running around to hang cupboards and pictures and what not.
I would even subsitute prepainted sheet rock for the zip roof and you will have your finished interior wall done at the same time.  You could hang clapboards directly on the verticle 2x4 straping.