help in avoiding or hiding butt-joints...

[jake pogg]

Greetings everyone.

I've a project going involving building someone's home using sawn 3-sided,so-called "D-logs".

I've successfully avoided this awful form of material heretofore,but here we have it,that's what i must use.

The client is a wonderful person who really deserves better,but that's all she can afford,so,my objective is to make the resulting building as decent mechanically and thermally,as we're way up there in Lat,and also aesthetically as pleasing as the circumstances allow.

This (misbegotten) type of material is often used where the corners are joined by the Butt&run "joint"(i'll probably half-dovetail it),and it's also very common to see many,Many butt-joints in the walls as the logs are being used as bricks in this method.

That i find awful and sad and would like to try to avoid.
I don't have full-length logs,but they're about half the length of my longest side.
So,in theory,i can have only one joint.

So far the only thing that comes to mind is a Vertical post to hide the joint.
I'm experienced enough of a builder to deal with that,if i had to,shrinkage and other issues-wise,but would love to hear what more experienced folks may suggest...

Thanks in advance,
Regards,Jake

[doc henderson]

welcome Jake.  I have never built with these.  of course door and windows will break it up.  maybe a 22.5 to 45 ° angle or a tongue and groove joint on the ends, or half lap would be easier to seal.  others with experience with D logs should chime in soon.

[jake pogg]

welcome Jake.  I have never built with these.  of course door and windows will break it up.  maybe a 22.5 to 45 ° angle or a tongue and groove joint on the ends, or half lap would be easier to seal.  others with experience with D logs should chime in soon.

Thank you,Sir.

You're lucky to've avoided building with these,i rarely,if ever,seen anyone do a very good job with this style mat'l.
(no offense to anyone that may think otherwise,there're reasons many and sundry why such stuff exists,and power to you iffen that's your cup of tea).

Your suggestions are very sensible and valid.
I repaired an older place a couple years back where the joints in the wall were 45-ed,and well-insulated.In nearly 40 years they remained tight,and not too noticeable,and sound in every way.

But to me it's just seems a kind of a come-down or sumfink...:(...I'd Love to avoid it almost on principle,as a "statement",to overcome this challenge for both our sakes,the client's and mine.

Every construction project has it's strengths and weaknesses.
My problems/challenges on this one are certainly present,but so are my very strong points.Among these is a Great versatility in processing my material:

I live directly on a very large river,and have the capacity to snag large green drift-logs out of it(up to 22"-24" dia. butts and 80'+ long).
Within a 1/4 mile of my constr. site is the landing where a friend with a front-end loader gets these logs out for me,inside that same radius is another friend's older,but very reliable Norwood band-mill is set up.
I've a forklift available to handle sections of log from the landing to the mill and then the product to site itself.

I'm capable of producing almost any shape and form of material needed...Seems a particular shame,under these circumstances,to settle for some "expediency" type solution.... 
    

[dogone]

I am not using them but what is so wrong with D logs? Just curious. 
   What I am using is 4x6 timbers with spline using half overlap corners. Mostly cut and will start in next few weeks. Comments and suggestions welcome.

[jake pogg]

I am not using them but what is so wrong with D logs? Just curious.     What I am using is 4x6 timbers with spline using half overlap corners. Mostly cut and will start in next few weeks. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Dogone,there're 2 things wrong with D-logs:

1.Every round stick is balanced within itself,the heart vs the tension of sapwood.
You can cut off two slabs,or four,preserving the balance,but three slabs off/one on is pretty silly(the log will bend out,belly away from slab(but at times the opposite)) .

2.D-logs are meant for easy/troublesome stacking atop one another.
Like bricks,that's the idea.
But wood is Not a brick.A log has Tangential shrinking,which will take that (illusory)flat and turn it Convex,as the timber dries.
So in stacking you have two convex surfaces touching at their longitudinal apex only.
Structurally,as a weight-bearing surface,it's asinine.
Insulation,sealant for air infiltration,all secondary issues are also made dysfunctional.
(for us this far north it matters greatly).

Good foryou to be building with squared off timbers.Post some cool photos when you'll feel inspired to,it'd beneat to see. 

[dogone]

Jake
Very informative , thanks.
Will try pics later. I am Computer stunned.

[jake pogg]

Wow,i think i finally learned how to stick a photo in a post...

So i kept considering and re-considering my options today.

I discarded the idea of using a vertical post to hide the joints.
Doing so would start applying pressure to my (vulnerable) psyche,slowly but steadily inclining the project towards Log-infill TF.
That's not what i want in this case,this is a Log-cabin,i.e. horizontal/load-bearing logs,and i need to stick to that.

I'm prettysure now that what i'll resort to is that ancient technique known as "cross-wall".
Still very popular in Eastern Europe,it's a good way to use shorter lengths of log available,kinda like jogging the footprint but in a crow-foot pattern.
(it's a handy device for a number of issues,like transferring a portion of your roof-load and other such tricks).

Et voila,i quick&dirtily carved a full-scale model to study,and it looks promising:

 



 

So in a place where i can actually use a dividing wall that's where i'll stick them filthy butt-joints.
In a location where there isn't a wall there'll be a line of protruding log-ends running down the wall,as decoration!:)

I made the model protrude 3",in real;ity i'll make it 6" or 8",i think,we don't want chunks to be splitting off...

[jake pogg]

Actually,the more i'm looking at it the more i likes it.
It's easy to do,and fast.

It Can,if need be,be made more complex/locking/or?...in this case i don't think i need ought else.

It can be splined,if necessary,and also hurricane-strapped,again if desired or needful.

The only thing that i think i need to modify is to house the sideways pieces into protruding one.1/2" housing should do it,and it'd be a decent joint.  

[ScottCC]

Embrace the joint and reveal it more is always an option.  It helps tell the story. As for weather tight butt joints.  Screw down logs then drill butt joint vertically to plus an inch.  Squirt in caulk, the right quantity will reveal itself on your safety glasses.  Drive in oversized square peg cut to proper length.  Party over.  Horizontal joints can be done with groove on upper and lower log with spline between.  That way drying of log will not open up holes in walls.

[jake pogg]

Embrace the joint and reveal it more is always an option.  It helps tell the story.

Scott,absolutely,Sir,that is often an excellent solution.

And there're plenty things i've embraced,in my checkered past,but this would be just too much...

The story it'd tell would be a depressing one-about the people who forgot what the trees are really like,that they're Round,and don't have any butt-joints in the middle anywhere...

Due to our climate at least one side of the logs must be sealed with an acrylic sealant(usually the inside first,then as the owner can afford it the outside).
For that,i'll run a chamfer along each square edge of logs.
This resulting V-groove for the sealant wouldn't look Too awful on the inside,on a vertical butt-joint,but on the Outside,where that round side is hanging out(incongruously),it'll look really bad.
And my honor as a builder will be then forfeited,and it's the last thing i got left...

So i must quote Shakespeare to my client(who just happens to be a beautiful young woman):"I couldn't love you dear so much loved not i Honor more...".

[jake pogg]

Screw down logs then drill butt joint vertically to plus an inch.  Squirt in caulk, the right quantity will reveal itself on your safety glasses.  Drive in oversized square peg cut to proper length.  Party over.  Horizontal joints can be done with groove on upper and lower log with spline between.  That way drying of log will not open up holes in walls.

There's a lot of great info here,i really appreciate this.

What sort of caulk/sealant would you use in such situation,to seal a peg inside the wall?

Splining,for some hundreds of feet of walls,i'm not sure about...However,the Kerfing of a log to keep the checks to a minimum is something i'm very interested in in this job in particular.

Unfortunately,the nature of (expletive) D-logs is that usually that Face cut,the surface that matters most for it's what makes the inside of your walls,is cut Closest to the heart.
Checking runs the shortest distance from heart to outside,and as i look at my sticks,i can't see any way to make the kerf come closer without the danger of severing the log clearly in two pieces...(or risking it doing it itself later,inside the wall).

[firefighter ontheside]

I think the cross wall idea is a good way to hide the butt joints.  My log home is 36' long and the logs are full length, but had I wanted a home that was say 80' long it probably would not have been practical to use full length logs.  I think they would have done the same thing.  Create what appears to be a cross wall from the outside, but on the inside it looks the same as the outside with a short log jutting into the room.  This hides the butt joints and probably adds a little of stability to the long wall.

Are your D logs natural on the outside or is the D shape completely milled?  Most D logs I have seen are milled 4 sides and the movement you mention from sapwood is not an issue because there is not necessarily any sapwood there.

[jake pogg]

Are your D logs natural on the outside or is the D shape completely milled?  Most D logs I have seen are milled 4 sides and the movement you mention from sapwood is not an issue because there is not necessarily any sapwood there.

The D-logs i'm working with are so naytural that they still have bark on 'em!
(and are degraded fairly bad underneath because of that,some of them at least).
I'm also probably short,so will be cutting more of the same to match.

Are you serious,they actually mill this dreadful stuff Completely to shape?!
That's about as awful as "log siding"...:(
(i'd bet  that it's very popular though,of course,senseless/tasteless stuff is invariably universally appealing...:(..).

Regarding the length of logs i've some curious things to tell,but got a busted-down forklift in the middle of a busy road right now and must rush off...

[firefighter ontheside]

Sounds fun Jake.  I wish I was there helping instead of sitting here at the firehouse.  We just returned from a Jeep wrangler that ran off the road and apparently flipped at least once.  I asked what happened.  He said he hit a "bump in the road".  The bump he felt was when he ran off the road.  I believe a fruity drink was involved.

That style of D log is common for a log home in this area.  My house is full scribed red pine.  I only know of one similar log home, but it is not scribed.  It has the same coped corner notches as my house, but it is chinked.

[jake pogg]

I wish I was there helping instead of sitting here at the firehouse.

Hey,my hat's off to all you guys,firefighters and EMT's.
THANK you for sitting there in that firehouse,i,and many,Many others could not ever thank you enough for what you do.

That style of D log is common for a log home in this area.  My house is full scribed red pine.  I only know of one similar log home, but it is not scribed.  It has the same coped corner notches as my house, but it is chinked

I think our environments are Very similar,i can make an identical report from here.
People are busy,preoccupied with other things,and not wealthy.They're poorly informed about the ins and outs of the magic of logs,and wood in general,and who can blame them?!

BUT,when even the least informed person sees a full-scribed house(or a nice TF),they immediately recognize the inherent Quality,the Rightness of it all.
It's instinctive,and goes very deep in people.
And that shows that in spite all the hardships most people still Do have their heads screwed on right,and also vindicates us-the wood freaks.
We Shall prevail!:)

[jake pogg]

I'm Unspeakably happy-i got my forklift to the site.

My material came off the barge as bundles of 20'+ 8"x8"s,and as a guy with a loader moved them to my site they're in inaccessable stacks.
This is the secret weapon that i was waiting for,and now it is all Mine!:)

NOW i can s-read them sticks around,start looking them over,get to know them,plan my lengths in part at least acording to what i got,note the twisted,the rotten,and the better ones.
("Painter's rule"-section of the wall couple feet up and down from your line of sight-is all that matters;translation to log-building:Save your best logs for above the windows!:)).



 

[jake pogg]

My log home is 36' long and the logs are full length, but had I wanted a home that was say 80' long it probably would not have been practical to use full length logs.

OK,like i said above,i've some weird,rarely-discussed info on this subject.
It originates in "Russia"(which term is very like "United States",i.e.you may be an "American",but your ethnic origin may be Very diverse.Similarly,something "russian" can be Kalmyk or Buryat in origin,of a culture very ancient and having nothing to do with that  fascist KGB empire based in Moscow that we associate with "russia" of today,for they're just the occupiers,for now,of all those diverse lands and cultures).

So,a tree,usually a conifer,is divided in 3 different parts,or Sections over there.
This designation is made for,and by,the building trades,and the builders buy logs that are priced according to this system.
(log yards are often impound ponds where the builders come to pick logs that are hussled over to them by the employees,rafted and shuffled about in the water by the workers).

Section I,the best and most expensive,is that clear or near-clear section above the jug-butt but below where the thick branching begins.
It's taper is N,say.

Section II is from where the branches begin thickly to where they become unreasonably large.It's priced cheaper,being significantly knotty,but it's taper is actually Less than in Section I(call it N-).

Section III is not used in building,it is knotty,it's taper increases rapidly(N+).

The peculiar thing is that each species of trees,as far as full-grown specimens go,has each of the sections approximately the same length.

On my own example,that of the Alaskan White spruce,we have Section I of about 16'-18';Section II of about same-maybe couple feet more,say 20',and the rest being firewood.

The Sections I and II also differ not only in taper,but somehow in density also(II is denser).And for both of these reasons the mixing of the two is not recommended.
So,if the plans call for a house of a given size these dimensions are broken into the Section lengths,and incorporate jogs of the plan as well as cross-walls to achieve the necessary overall length.

The way they like to roll over there is by making Each of the dividing walls a log-wall,including every closet,bathroom,et c.(in one construction site i 've seen photos of each course had 54(!!!) logs involved...

All this really came to me when building a full-scribed round logs house some years back,38'x 42'.Some of my butts,of 22"-24" dia. had to intersect the tops of as little as 9"...This was a pure round-notch job,no scarfs(insistence of the client),and it was very,Very awkward...(Chambers' "formula" saved me,although jot meant for that,but it worked).

When working for the very well-heeled clients the builders over there talk them into buying Section I grade logs only,and build exclusively out of them.     

  

[kantuckid]

Sawing a "D" log and always expecting it too curve out is not true for some species like EWP or even red pine-both are sawed and air dried or kiln dried w/o issues. Eastern Hemlock too. If you build green they'll be screwed down anyway no matter the species is another thought.

 Butt joints in similar sized logs is not gonna show much if cut flat, why worry? Spline them and caulk later on to match whatever finish color.  

[jake pogg]

Sawing a "D" log and always expecting it too curve out is not true for some species like EWP or even red pine-both are sawed and air dried or kiln dried w/o issues. Eastern Hemlock too.

Yes,Sir,you're quite right about the Very important difference the species make.
ALL discussions about logs are necessarily specie-specific.

For better or worse,i've No other species bu White spruce.That's all i build with,burn for wood,make charcoal out of for my forging operation,live and breathe that spruce.

White spruce has the tensile strength equal to that of steel.

If you build green they'll be screwed down anyway no matter the species is another thought.

Nope.Can't do that with White spruce.It'll destroy the fastener,OR itself,but you Cannot make it do what it doesn't want to do.
If i'll have time i can take a photo of a house nearby,it's built out of logs that were 2-sided,and laid flat.
Big trees,cut to 8" thick "boards",in effect.
And one stick,at the absolute bottom of the stack,decided to twist...And it Did.
In spite of a severely twisted grain(meaning that in slabbing it off All kinds of fibers were severed),in spite of having a roof-load of a 2-story house holding it down,and all sorts of fasteners,it just lifted up the entire corner.
Effortlessly.

Butt joints in similar sized logs is not gonna show much if cut flat, why worry? Spline them and caulk later on to match whatever finish color.

...Sorry...I think i'll claim a religious belief

No butt-joints in anything i put my hand to...Taboo.The Spirits won't allow,you know how it is...

[kantuckid]

OK White Spruce wins the day, It moves a lot.  

Question: All those SPF 2x's that we get down here in the lower 48 from the boreal forest-what species of Spruce are those? 

On Canadian fishing trips I've watched a tree harvester slowing move across the horizon cutting down those little Spruce trees that are gang sawed nearby into mostly 2x4's & 2x6's as typically small trees.

 My kitchen ceiling is made from that same Canadian Spruce 2x6's when I ran out of local EWP 2x6 T&G boards from my own lumber. I finished in Spruce as that's all I could get that was KD and allowed me to keep building. 
Strength wise most all the wood freaks like myself know that it has been used for aircraft frame back when based on strength and weight. Ala Howard Hughes, etc....

Why the butt joint question in the first place, if they're out of the question based on ornery Spruce logs?  :D

[jake pogg]

Very much so,Sir,on everything above.
Chances are that all commercially harvested "white"(vs the reddish "hem/fir" stuff,which is most probably hemlock) lumber from up north is White spruce.

And it's because of it's insane MOE(Modulus of Elasticity) that Howard Hughes loved it,and so had Stradivarius:),and especially the British Navy-in other words,everyone to whom a very resilient,springy wood matters.
The airplane-building grade starts at 32 growth rings per inch(i once used a log in a house wall that was over 70!:)).Often,when splitting firewood,i gaze at the grain that is quite a bit nicer than your average,say Yamaha,guitar or violin sound deck...

However today,in modern framing practices,you'll find White spruce at the very bottom of desirable materials list.It does not hold a fastener,it's low in resistance to compression,it does not do this,nor that,any of the things required by modern construction methods.

Personally I then tend to question the methods:),but what the industry does is KD the stuff...As we know when water turns to steam it expands in volume about 1400 times,which blows apart many of the cellulose cell walls and partitions,"tenderizing" that unfortunate stick into submission,for it to stay put and submit(to often incorrect use).