Solar Farms ??

[nativewolf]

Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Hello Neighbor
We are a little south of you around the county courthouse. Been living here 14 years and before buying the property I spent a few years trying to make sure this area would NEVER be developed. Well you guessed it now they want to put a big solar farm around us on three sides. Of course they tried to get me to sign their lease or buy option a few years ago but I turned them down even though they made a good offer. But this is our home and homestead I have put the last 14 years of my life in to making this in to the place I want. Not to mention I like living 2 miles from anyone else. If they come back and offer enough (at least double the last offer) I will sell but then not at some unspecified time within 5 years like they originally offered. IF and that's a big if I were to sell then it will have to be to move up not sideways or back. There's no way I can or want to start from scratch again at this point in life.
The only upside I can see if they do build all around us is that we would have 8 foot fencing on three sides someone else got to pay for.
My main worry about living here after they build is "what if" living in that kind of electrical production causes my kids or grand kids some kind of health issues.

Long distance neighbor.  My advice...I'd sell.  Your property value is going to be greatly impacted if surrounded by a solar farm.  Not sure why you thought it would not be developed though?  If it was in pine plantations they are often turned into developments.  In any case, sorry that you are facing this.  
First, are you sure they are building?  Dominion received applications for 3x more production than the state uses in total.  Just way way more than can be used or transmitted.   So, do you know if this farm has moved past the planning phase and has a client?  There are dozens of data centers waiting to get turned on in Prince William and Loudoun County, waiting on juice.  So the demand could well be there but maybe it wont' get built.  
Did they buy land already?   That's one sign they are serious.
Before they start the build process I'd explore the sale again but like you say, see if they can bump it up.  If removing your property makes the build easier that's worth a bit more.  They have more costs than just a fence.  They will have to buffer your property by some setback amount (know what that is-how much land do they lose in setbacks).  They have an odd panel arrangement that can be more expensive to cable.  Etc.  I'd stress the benefits of not having the odd parcel suck in the farm.

[Southside]

Why do you think his property will be negatively impacted by the solar farm and he should sell?  In reply #48 you said that you liked solar farms.  

Oh I understand - you like them when they impact someone else.  Got it.   8)

[SwampDonkey]

That assumes that the bond actually covers the total cost and they aren't bankrupt to go after more. What if it covers 15% in future dollars of less value? The bond is purchased by the company now, to cover something that might occur say 20 years from now. We aren't talking replacement, we're talking cleanup. Cheaper panels does not translate to cheaper clean up. Look at asbestos, it will cost $1M minimum to clean up a school fleeced with the stuff, not $20,000. Asbestos was cheap, the cleanup is not. People get fleeced over and over and call it all good.  :D Bankruptcies have been convenient in the past of elimination of pensions, wood purchases, paying contractors. What's going to save you from that? :D 

[Iwawoodwork]

I am seeing a lot of what if's about solar farms and limited facts about the negatives, that have actually happened yet.  That said i am currently negotiating an easement contract with a solar energy company through my property and am about 2.5 -3 miles from the proposed panel farm. I have heard all of the negative "what if, guarantee this will happen, why not put it here or there but not there, etc." with no factual back up.  On the forum I just read about factual positive info about what can be done around and under a solar farm such as animal grazing, certain types of crops, and much less demand on water for farm irrigation for the plot.  
I think all we have to do is research other countries such as NZ that have been using solar for quite a few years, not a lot of negatives.
I did find out during meeting with the solar rep that they need some place to tie into the power grid that can handle the output, such as an existing substation that is close enough to be economically feasible, so my place happens to be on that route, the option to purchase the permanent 150' wide easement is for up to 3 years with a generous annual payment and if the easement is purchased the payment is more than I paid for the place 12 years ago and I still have the land for grazing, soil is very rocky, With the climate warming/drying up here in the west water for irrigation and hydro power is becoming an issue,
Water power is just like solar and wind in that how to store the excess, think winter runoff, I know 'dams" yet there those folks who are negative on the dams and want then gone and permitting a new one next to impossible.
Some one mentioned the government subsidizing solar, let's think back to the 1920's and 30's and the electrification of rural America (farms) that was a government program that had great results. I can get state grants (tax payer) for cutting Juniper off my ground, farmers get government pay (tax payer) for not farming ground, so why not put solar farms on it.

[biggkidd]

Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Hello Neighbor
We are a little south of you around the county courthouse. Been living here 14 years and before buying the property I spent a few years trying to make sure this area would NEVER be developed. Well you guessed it now they want to put a big solar farm around us on three sides. Of course they tried to get me to sign their lease or buy option a few years ago but I turned them down even though they made a good offer. But this is our home and homestead I have put the last 14 years of my life in to making this in to the place I want. Not to mention I like living 2 miles from anyone else. If they come back and offer enough (at least double the last offer) I will sell but then not at some unspecified time within 5 years like they originally offered. IF and that's a big if I were to sell then it will have to be to move up not sideways or back. There's no way I can or want to start from scratch again at this point in life.
The only upside I can see if they do build all around us is that we would have 8 foot fencing on three sides someone else got to pay for.
My main worry about living here after they build is "what if" living in that kind of electrical production causes my kids or grand kids some kind of health issues.

Long distance neighbor.  My advice...I'd sell.  Your property value is going to be greatly impacted if surrounded by a solar farm.  Not sure why you thought it would not be developed though?  If it was in pine plantations they are often turned into developments.  In any case, sorry that you are facing this.  
First, are you sure they are building?  Dominion received applications for 3x more production than the state uses in total.  Just way way more than can be used or transmitted.   So, do you know if this farm has moved past the planning phase and has a client?  There are dozens of data centers waiting to get turned on in Prince William and Loudoun County, waiting on juice.  So the demand could well be there but maybe it wont' get built.  
Did they buy land already?   That's one sign they are serious.
Before they start the build process I'd explore the sale again but like you say, see if they can bump it up.  If removing your property makes the build easier that's worth a bit more.  They have more costs than just a fence.  They will have to buffer your property by some setback amount (know what that is-how much land do they lose in setbacks).  They have an odd panel arrangement that can be more expensive to cable.  Etc.  I'd stress the benefits of not having the odd parcel suck in the farm.

All I know for a fact at this time is they have paid out a pile of money for those 5 year purchase options. 
As to not thinking someone would develop the land it's a low income area with very little if any growth in the last 25 years. I was looking for a place that would stay rural for my and my children's lifetimes and this was about as close as you can come until solar farms became a thing. 
As to the worked out farm land soil I have revitalized a couple acres so far and have plans to fix many more. I've added truckloads of composted wood chips to the soil and been running animals on it and it is coming alive!

[mike_belben]

good on you biggkidd.  we are kindred spirits in those regards. 

[Southside]

I can completely sympathize with someone who has poured their blood, sweat, and years into a patch of dirt. It becomes very personal and the idea of watching someone else take or destroy it will come with a heavy price. 

It's not about the dollars. 

[peakbagger]

The reality is unless the land around a person's property is permanently protected its unfair to expect the adjoining landowner to voluntarily reduce their potential income or use of their land just because the neighbor does not like it. The choices are pay the neighbor for a permanent easement (highly unlikely) play the zoning game (not reliable and subject to change) or search for a location that has land protected by some sort of long term easement. My wood lot is effectively boxed in by an undevelopable lot on one side (250 feet by 4000 foot lot with a significant slope). A town forest protected by a state administered development easement on the rear and the other side abuts a large family property that also has a steep slope that is usually accessed via my lot due to the steep slope. They have a limited right for timber access but no rights for any other developmental access. Its highly likely that if that family lot were split up, it would go into the town forest.
I have seen a few houses partially surrounded by solar farms down in Mass. IMHO, its definitely not a great curb appeal. The panels also appreciably raise the local temps during hot weather. They are at best 18% efficient so the rest of the sunlight hitting them are converted to heat which is radiated into the air. That heat is enough to raise the local temps a bit especially up wind of the farm.

[biggkidd]

I can completely sympathize with someone who has poured their blood, sweat, and years into a patch of dirt. It becomes very personal and the idea of watching someone else take or destroy it will come with a heavy price.

It's not about the dollars.

EXACTLY my point as to why I don't want to sell. But as others have stated I am worried about it changing things around us. Temperature and water are the big two behind it causing any health issues for my kids / grandkids. It's to late for me to worry about my own health I've been on bonus time since 2005 when I was told to get my affairs in order by the docs.

[YellowHammer]

We have one of the biggest new start solar farms in Tennessee about 15 mile from us, 1,700 acres.  It's kind of a local amusing joke, it seems to be pretty badly managed, and a cross between "green" aspirations and "real life" stupidity.  

For example, last year there were rumors that things were way behind schedule, as the workers couldn't get to the panels to install and repair them.  So everything was at idle.  Apparently, in order to be "green" the rules say they can't use herbicides (save the planet) so they have to use manual mowers and weed eaters.  The problem was, the mowing equipment was throwing rocks and stones and breaking the panels from all the thousands of truckloads it takes to cover 1,700 acres with rock pads and gravel roads, and so they stopped mowing and destroying their panels, and since they couldn't use herbicides, all the weeds and grew up to the point where the people couldn't get to the arrays to fix the broken ones and install the new ones. Whoops.....  So then they tried to hire new mowing crews, ones that wouldn't "throw rocks" and they couldn't get any of them to bid on the job or the ones they hired wouldn't show up.  So it turned into a giant hay field this summer. :D

Now, they have decided to take out all rocks and gravel roads they put in to get rid of all the potential shrapnel, so are adding to the planet's carbon footprint by pushing all that into huge piles, and are giving it away to anyone with a dump truck.  Mountains of it.

Anyway, there may be more to this story I don't know about, but this is what everybody local thinks is going on.  

 

[Southside]

The reality is unless the land around a person's property is permanently protected its unfair to expect the adjoining landowner to voluntarily reduce their potential income or use of their land just because the neighbor does not like it

I agree with you to a point.  That being farm / rural land, unless it's edged up against town or something, has generally remained in a similar use state.  Yes, some gets broken up, some gets developed, etc, but not the massive, industrial scale 8,000 acres at a time.  That's a pretty significant change and it really does not benefit the locals, the power is really for the cities, so that makes it a harder pill to swallow.  Now being one who very much believes in landowners rights I don't have a solution, other than perhaps there should be some sort of impacted purchase option that is multitudes over value so that the selling landowner is truly compensated given it's not just a single neighbor developing something rather it's David and Goliath.  

[Walnut Beast]

It's easy to arm chair no no but what if somebody came by your 100 acre place and offered 15k acre 😂 

[Southside]

The problem is where do you go and what does it cost to replace it?  I have many, many, unpaid hours in my dirt, and a genuine admiration of those natural inhabitants who are comforted as a side benefit of my work.  Someone wants to take it by force then those hours are going to be paid for with compound interest, a late fee, and a penalty is the way I look at it.  $15K would not buy my place today.  

[Walnut Beast]

My previous question was to anyone not you directly Southside. Very nicely said! More people need to think like that. It's not all about the money! 

[biggkidd]

The problem is where do you go and what does it cost to replace it?  I have many, many, unpaid hours in my dirt, and a genuine admiration of those natural inhabitants who are comforted as a side benefit of my work.  Someone wants to take it by force then those hours are going to be paid for with compound interest, a late fee, and a penalty is the way I look at it.  $15K would not buy my place today.  

When they first approached me with their plan I did go and search to see what it would cost to find similar circumstances again. What I found was to get 30-50 acres with a house and buildings more than a mile from neighbors yet less than an hour and a half from a major city would run about a cool half million. I just can't start over doing it all from scratch again. Here I started with nothing but 36 acres of scrub timberland blood and sweat.

[SwampDonkey]

It’s easy to arm chair no no but what if somebody came by your 100 acre place and offered 15k acre  

Take the money and run. :D :D All kidding aside, don't be surprised what you discover down the road searching for the next patch of land. Somehow, we have become a society where your equipment you want to sell me to cut my trees for your mill is worth more than all my trees, 70 acres of land and new modern house all put together. :D :D That's what you're going to come up against. In one hand and out the other, plus some more. ;)

PS: At my age, I'd gladly take that kind of money for my woodland, but no less. ;D Around these parts, if private woodlots are bought up by mills, it's just the same as being the government. No family will ever have the opportunity to ever buy that land, it's tied up for perpetuity. Government has expropriated mill ground in the past (Nashwaak Pulp and Paper).

[kantuckid]

The solar "farms" I've seen by driving by there is no trespassing by humans or animals and certainly no space to grow something under the panels. Panels and gravel access roads is it, all with a high razor wire fence surrounding the area. My county will get none of them as what few suitable spots are the rare pasture spaces among steep terrain. 
I've read that over half the world's solar panels now come from China and growing. Beware placing your energy needs with the enemy? 
If (or when) war comes the senario changes from passive energy to immense needs. 
Our energy grid is said to be hurting no matter what feeds it. 
The mill owners here who buy private forest, cut them then allow them to rest and once they've become attractive to land seeker for hunting and such they re-sell them. The larger tracts owned by out of state steel & coal companies (in KY) do stay in their hands, a few have allowed ATV trails or bankrupted and allowed taxpayers to restore the mine areas. Those lands have been owned or mineral leased since before WWII. Many serious books about that topic, such as Night comes to the Cumberlands, etc..
After the "Arab oil crisis" many companies did come into my area to lease shale oil properties but that died really fast as not economical. A few dug trenches , I guess to test the content? 

[KEC]

Sounds like part of the game plan of solar farms is to buy land to derive income from while the land values appreciate to cash in on that down the road. My father bought a farm in 1953 for $ 15,000 and sold it in 1966 for $ 45,000. He later admitted that he didn't really make any money producing milk; he made it on the land. Walmart has bought lots of  prime land in good locations with multiple acres for their superstores. If, for whatever reason, they liquidated, they would have a mega fortune from the sale of that land.

[kantuckid]

Box stores in todays world often must agree to what happens to their land/spot if they move which happens fairly often. Many are not higher ed schools or flea markets. A few are currently eyesores in some towns where retail is tough to happen. 
Solar people lease, not buy land in my nearby area. 
As for worn out, left over dairy farms, all are at least two counties above me, and the Amish buy those farms up the past 25 years. 

[SwampDonkey]

A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB

[Bill]

In upstate central PA they offered to put solar panels on 20+ acres of level ground - pretty much down in the " hollow " as my house is up on the south side of a small hill ( here in PA there aren t many that would call our hills big ) .

I 'd lose " logging/timber " exemption on RE Tax but company offered to cover that plus ~ 7500 / yr - maybe .

Not sure I want in - there's a bunch of wind mills on the ridge across the hollow - most would call them an eye sore - and I 'm thinking I 'd soon grow tired of neighbors using them for target practice ! ( they d be close to the road ) .

Have yet to have a sit down with them - if I 'd even want to go that far - I 'm thinking there's not enough interest in the area to make it worth their while .

[kantuckid]

A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB

We "camp" in Walmarts and have been in many, many all over the USA, except FL which often doesn't allow such things. We keep and old atlas that has the list of Walmarts, street addresses and if they allow camping. At times we have driven to an empty store lot as they'll move from locations. Very common and reason localities have laws to keep down eyesore malls many places here now.
Honestly, I fail to grasp why a solar farm is logical in KY where the number of sunshine days is far lower than many other places? It is energy that travels on the grid wires after all. 

[SwampDonkey]

Lots of folks pull into the Woodstock Walmart in RV's in the summer time for over night.

[nativewolf]

A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB

We "camp" in Walmarts and have been in many, many all over the USA, except FL which often doesn't allow such things. We keep and old atlas that has the list of Walmarts, street addresses and if they allow camping. At times we have driven to an empty store lot as they'll move from locations. Very common and reason localities have laws to keep down eyesore malls many places here now.
Honestly, I fail to grasp why a solar farm is logical in KY where the number of sunshine days is far lower than many other places? It is energy that travels on the grid wires after all.

Electrons move but you have losses and grid congestion, at some point it makes more sense to build it locally.
So the case with solar at industrial scale is that it is cheap.   Just mind boggling cheap.  Doesn't matter how much cloudiness, solar panels still produce just at lower levels of power.   So you build 3-4x what you need and it's still cheaper or you produce what you can and on the cloudy days you have purchase agreements from somewhere else and you accept the grid loss or congestion fees.  It's still cheap.  Getting cheaper too, the 3-4% decrease in cost/watt has been going on for decades and it has a long long way to run.  The lab efficiencies are still 10 years from production and so we have visibility into just long term reductions in $/watt.  Batteries...that's the hold up.  2 huge Ford battery plants going to go up in KY, probably broke ground already.  2 in GA were started a couple of years ago.  I don't like the Ford style battery for what it is worth.

[stavebuyer]

I have a little solar setup at my off-grid cabin. Lights when I ever need them. Can brew a pot of coffee or microwave a snack..when the battery is charged and can even run a small AC or fridge during bright summer sun.

The limitation is the battery(s). I like my coffee before the sun comes up and like a hot shower and cool beverage after it sets. My house is on an exposed hilltop. I can see to the horizon in the SW and NW. Only way to describe the afternoon wind is "relentless". Lifespan of an expensive made in the USA sewn flag can be hours if flown on a windy day. But oddly at dusk it subsides as if turned off with a switch. What does this have to do with price of bat guano in China?

The new EVs are going to be plugged in at people's homes in the evening when the AC is set on high to mitigate the effects from burning coal in China to supply the increased electric demand caused by EVS while the microwave is re-heating the evening meal delivered by Door Dash(talk about waste).

Storage. Storage. Storage. It doesn't exist. They may one day solve storage issues, but the cars are starting to plug in today. How are massive solar fields(even the mythical almost free ones?) going to help meet demand?

Solution: Become Nocturnal and sleep during the day while the Tesla charges!